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PPPSSC
topic
07:02:07 PM Feb 17th 2014
Pulled this paragraph from the description:

Speaking of Disney princesses, this is the one movie no-one ever mentions when complaining about what awful role models Disney movies present.

Critical and audience reception isn't pertinent to the work description and Unfortunate Implications is YMMV and shouldn't be linked from the main page anyway. Also, this isn't even true and some evidence of that is visible on the bottom of this very discussion page.
klhess07
topic
10:31:35 PM Aug 7th 2013
Anyone know why the spoiler entry under "Snow Means Death" is tagged as YMMV?

(sorry about the double entry, btw)
PPPSSC
11:53:40 AM Oct 24th 2013
There was a pothole to Memetic Mutation in it. Fixed.
Silverevilchao
topic
11:43:46 PM Mar 14th 2013
edited by Silverevilchao
I refuse to believe the sequel exists. I refuse to believe the sequel exists. I rr-r-r-refuse *sobs* why the hell did I have to see it all those years ago?
MrDeath
09:24:50 AM Mar 15th 2013
The discussion pages are not for whining about a sequel. Nobody here wants to read this.
PPPSSC
topic
04:00:27 PM Dec 10th 2012
Is Chi Fu really a Karma Houdini? I thought the Emperor basically fired him. Or does it not count because Mulan declined to replace him?
PrincessEllabur
topic
10:19:33 AM Oct 30th 2012
I don't understand why people get ticked off about the comment about 'tiny waist' in "Honour to Us All" song and people clearly have forgotten that European in the past had the EXACTLY THE SAME IDEA Corsets anyone?.
LentilSandEater
topic
08:22:23 AM Jul 4th 2012
Could we have a consensus on the Disney Villain Death entry? I haven't seen it and so can't say anything.
Wardog
topic
12:27:53 PM Sep 3rd 2011
Why is someone making a fuss about Qin Shi Huangdi legislating weights and measures? Given that this is someone whos "unification" (i.e. conquest) of China killed millions, as did the building of the Great Wall, why highlight something as benign (and universal in developed nations) as standardizing measurements? (Or did someone forget to link to Arson Murder Jaywalking?
Token
topic
03:55:00 PM Jun 17th 2011
For the love of god, why is "Fa Ping" potholed under Getting Crap Past the Radar? Mulan came out in '98, Sexy Losers began in '99. Looking too hard for subtext where there isn't any.
Werewolfin
03:55:13 PM Sep 15th 2012
Because 'fapping' is onomatopoeia for the sound of a guy 'jerking off,' 'choking the chicken,' et cetera, et cetera.
Mercy
topic
03:42:49 PM Jun 9th 2011
edited by Mercy
Did Not Do The Research: Mulan plays fast and loose with Chinese history, creating in effect a Fantasy Counterpart Culture. We probably shouldn't expect more from a Disney cartoon, but if you want to talk about it in detail, Discuss is the place rather than the main article.

  • A group of central Asian tribes people called the Xiongnu, may or may not be the Huns that attacked the Romans, invaded China sometime in the third century BCE, during China's Han Dynasty. However, the Chinese are seen using gunpowder based technologies, e.g. rockets and fireworks, in the movie. While the Chinese did invent gunpowder, its earliest written recipe dates to about 1044 CE, long after the Xiongnu attacks.
  • The way they drew these feet, indicates that this movie took place before foot binding was invented.
    • That's not exactly correct. Foot binding in women in rural areas of China didn't happen until the 16th century. Before then, it was really only women who were wealthy or in a high social class (who didn't have to work in order to get by), with the highest social orders having implemented it almost five hundred years before. And then you have the fact that in some places there was a century's give or take before the tradition became wide-spread, depending on how far a province or village/city was removed from the imperial court, and so considering we don't know where Mulan is from, you couldn't really call that an indicator of time placement.
    • Though we can deduce from Mulan's family's home (large, well appointed, huge garden, relatively fancy ancestral hall, implied that they have enough land for some agriculture) and her clothes that her family is pretty upper-class and lives in a somewhat well-developed town/city; considering the Forbidden City looks completed at the time the film takes place, we can guess that it's probably around the Ming Dynasty. Let's just assume her parents were either way ahead of the times or Mulan is from an ethnic group that did not footbind.
    • We have to keep in mind that this is a Disney movie, and footbinding was a horrifying practice that little kids really shouldn't know about.
PrincessEllabur
03:06:57 PM Oct 24th 2012
You're forgoting to add that another way to know Mulan is upper-class (or in my view: upper class that has fallen on hard times or else wouldn't they have servants?)that Mulan is able to name her ancestors. A poor person probably wouldn't be able to do. "Ancestors hear my plea".
71.80.226.45
topic
09:41:05 AM Feb 24th 2011
The demonization of the Huns in the movie?I know they needed a bad guy and the Mongals were out of the question.But it seems that they made the conflict too Black and White.Yes,it doesn't excuse Shan-Yu from hurting innocents but the Chinese army did war atrocities in foreign lands as well.Sometimes they intentionally stirred it up.One fanfiction on Fanfiction.net,"Shan Yu's Victory",actually made Shan-Yu into a grayer figure and even had his motives explained.The story even had a growing romance between Mulan and Shan-Yu.Anyone else want to say something?
SizeXS
01:29:52 AM Mar 27th 2011
...I would like to see this fanfiction. That is all.
71.80.226.45
10:05:59 PM Mar 27th 2011
It is by an author named lightbird which as I said can be found on Fanfiction.net.Her story was well written and well thought out and made Shan-Yu into a three demensional character.If you are a bit off by him being turned into a grayer character then this story isn't for you.But if you want a story that really provokes you then "Shan Yu's Victory" will be that story.Plus it really makes one really interested in shipping Shan-yu and Mulan in AU fictions.
CleverPun
topic
03:32:01 AM Jul 3rd 2010
I just pared down this section of natter, but if anyone sees anything to salvage that I missed, please adjust the article accordingly:

  • Cassandra Truth: no one believes Mulan about the still-living Huns, mostly because it's a woman saying it.
    • And because she kinda lied about everything else.
      • Well, not quite everything else, but lying about her gender (and propping up that lie with further lies along the way) reflects rather poorly on her honesty. It's even mentioned by the emperor that Mulan "decieved her commanding officer" so it's made VERY clear that there are reasons other than "because it's a woman saying it."
        • Mulan's comrades have that excuse, but the people in the crowd do write her off or ignore her presumably because of her gender. However, this may be more an issue of propriety, dealing with the social boundaries a young, unchaperoned woman encounters than what the trope is specifically referencing.
        • They ignore her "presumably because of her gender"? Seems rather... "presumptuous" to assume that. For all we (the audience) know, the crowd may have been told what happened. Remember, she showed up during some kind of ceremony involving soldiers who knew her... not entirely far-fetched to say they may have spread the word about it.
        • This presumptuous troper was basing their comment on Mushu's line regarding the impact of her gender on her validity. :) Troper agrees with you that part of the issue was her unlucky fame, but the fact that the movie specifically shows men dismissing her out of hand makes it suspect that the problem is a combination of both issues. And on that note, it also raises the question of whether the trope is actually applicable if her gender is only part of reason she's being ignored.
Cliche
04:51:59 PM Jul 13th 2010
edited by Cliche
Putting down this entire section since it's mostly arguing about societal issues. In addition, frankly I'm getting sick of seeing Rule-Abiding Rebel applied to everything that doesn't conform 100% to "feminist" expectations as well as the Girls Need Role Models attitude in general.

  • Real Women Never Wear Dresses: Despite usually being considered the most feminist Disney heroine, she still gets accused of being a bad role model because she invited Shang to dinner at the end.
    • Seriously, who can blame her?
    • Showing emotions other than rage towards men? Horrible! Getting a boyfriend despite not specifically seeking for love? Sexist! Not hating pretty dresses despite not being comfy on them, and wearing one at the beginning to please the parental units? Eeeeew. *sigh*
    • IF the problem was with her getting a boyfriend, (it might have been something else about it) then that would seem to imply either intense misandry, or the idea that a hero like her should avoid romance, or some combination of the two. Well, if they mean it, that is. They might not, though...
    • Don't look now, but some people find it problematic that Disney's princesses, no matter how rebellious, without fail will end their stories with the lesson that only by getting a man ("finding true love") can a girl live a fulfilled life.
      • Troper seconds this point, though she'll give Disney the credit that the original film showed us Mulan's relationship with Shang was an unintended side effect of an intensely individual journey of self-discovery and personal empowerment. The significance of her duty to her heart and her belief in it trumped everything else. In light of that, Shang's attraction to her is somewhat refreshing because it requires a male protagonist to reconsider and alter his social and personal conceptions to win a woman's heart. It's really the second film that completely undermined the original point of the story and strips Mulan of her underlying convinctions to contrive a poorly rendered and, at times, frankly sexist plot.
      • Are you kidding? What movie DOESN'T have some love plot tacked on at the end? Even horror movies have some idiots falling in love, happy ending or not. Why does Disney get so much crap? Oh, right, because it's Disney...
        • in at least on version of the original story, mulan gets the guy.( he's a prince) they get married. disney's just following the story, just like in most of the other fairy tale to film stuff it does.
        • Distributors like Disney receive the most flak because of their size, simple as that. They have the ability to impact a very large audience - and given their target demographic, a highly impressionable one. Nobody is suggesting Disney is a rampant cesspool of sexism and all things perpetuated by THE MAN, but being able to recognize and acknowledge patterns in fiction and storytelling helps to undermine the unintended side effects they may have.
neoYTPism
02:19:40 PM Sep 6th 2010
edited by NikiPaprika
The "lesson" that "only by getting a man" could she "live a fulfilled life" isn't really the lesson of the movie at all. Looks like SOMEONE's Completely Missing the Point.

Disney went from Megara, a damsel in distress, to Mulan, an Action Girl, and people just ended up accusing the film of being sexist for giving her a boyfriend, or for being motivated by saving her father. Give a mouse a cookie and he'll ask for a glass of milk.

  • If it's Completely Missing the Point, then why was there any need for her to be with a man in the first place? Had the whole subject been taken out, it still would have depicted her as an Action Girl, so when you put it like that, it makes the scene seem unnecessary. Though I guess you could argue it's all to do with earning her happy ending.
neoYTPism
07:25:47 PM Nov 29th 2010
Unnecessary =/= claiming that only by getting a man could she live a fulfilled life. You are seeing a message where there is none @ Niki
PrincessEllabur
03:10:13 PM Oct 24th 2012
Techinally not boyfriend but a fiancee would be the correct term.
RoseDoll
12:46:54 PM Apr 22nd 2013
edited by 216.99.32.42
Actually, Megara is portrayed as a very strong, feminist character... She even goes as far as hating the idea of being in love and even giving her life to save the object of that love.
klhess07
10:29:59 PM Aug 7th 2013
Anyone know why the spoiler entry under "Snow Means Death" is tagged as YMMV?
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