Deader Than Disco Real Life Discussion

Collapse/Expand Topics
 

LaptopGuy
Topic
10:31:15 PM Jun 25th 2016
OK, so this entry I recently was removed:

  • "Rape culture", a term coined by second-wave feminists in the 1970s, and its many components like victim blaming, befell a similar fate to pedophilia thanks to numerous efforts to cast it into a negative light. Back in the patriarchal culture of the 20th century, rape was viewed as not a serious matter and at worst, something that both parties were to be held responsible for. The sterotype that all women are promiscuous suggested that they were always "asking for" it and also helped criminalize the victim more than the perpetrator. With the rise of the Internet and social media in the 21st century, feminists were able to spread their many messages, including those on rape, across the entire world. This mass re-evaluation of gender roles redefined rape as a social taboo; the perpetrators were cast as monsters and victims as completely innocent woobies. Since then, the backlash against rape culture has led to the public crucifixions of once-respected personalities accused of being a rapist (i.e. Bill Cosby; record producer Dr. Luke; Canadian radio host Jian Ghomeshi) or defending rapists or rape culture or attacking victims (i.e. Cee-Lo Green; congressman Todd Akin; journalist George Will). Add this to numerous other scandals over mishandled rape cases (i.e. CNN making positive comments about two high school football players accused of rape; a false Rolling Stone article about a rape on the University of Virginia campus; the lenient sentencing of a former Stanford Univeristy swimmer over sexually assaulting an unconscious woman), and it's clear that the demonization of "rape culture" is complete.

It was removed without explanation, then I brought it back and now it was taken down again for being "flame bait". I wanted to bring this to discussion and see whether or not it's OK for this to be listed as an example.
LaptopGuy
10:35:28 PM Jun 25th 2016
Never mind. I just saw the DTD thread; ignore this post.
HighCrate
Topic
04:12:00 PM May 10th 2016
Pulled the following entry:

  • Steam locomotives as a serious mode of transportation. Sure, they have a lot of admirers and still do service on heritage railways, but nobody in their right mind would suggest getting from Madrid to Barcelona or from New York to Denver in a steam locomotive for anything other than fun. The steam lines that still exist are kept for their novelty or tourism value alone and usually run on nothing but enthusiasm of a frew volunteers. Interestingly, the image of steam locos has undergone the exact opposite development. When they were retired, they were viewed by both railway companies and their passengers (not without justification) as grimy, dirty, inefficient, loud and overall cumbersome. While none of those things have changed, many people harken back for the "good old days" when locomotives looked like they "should" and traveling meant raising steam.

This entry was deleted by lledsmar with the edit reason that steam locomotives are Cool Trains. It was restored by Jhonny saying that "people might like them, but nobody thinks they are a serious technology with any actual purpose other than recreation and tourism."

My take: Deader Than Disco doesn't just mean "not as big as it once was" or even "completely forgotten," and it certainly doesn't mean "not as big as it once was for one purpose, but still relevant for another." It means, "dead, gone, and so poorly-regarded in hindsight that it's remembered now only as a punch line."

You just plain don't hear steam locomotives remembered with derision the way disco was. It can't be Deader Than Disco if it's a widespread subject of fond nostalgia.
Jhonny
06:07:50 PM May 10th 2016
Oh but it is remembered with derision. When it comes to transportation.

It's only ever fondly remembered (and used) as a "toy".

Imagine there was some technology that used to be very important in many ways and is now only seen as a toy if that. I don't know how we define this trope, but that's why I mentioned the caveat as a serious mode of transportation in the very first line. Steam trains are dead. That's why there is a trope Steam Never Dies. They're not used for freight, they are not used for long trips or scheduled service along major routes. Some of the stores listed here may be fondly remembered and some may even have nostalgia for them. But they're dead.
lledsmar
03:38:55 AM May 11th 2016
edited by lledsmar
Even when used as a serious mode of transportation back then (19th Century- late 50's to mid 60's), most folks still like steam trains.

Still popular with railfans and general public. Part of railroad past and not just a toy. They did their jobs. It's like saying diesel and electric trains are Deader Than Disco.

Songs were written about steam trains (good and bad) and so on.

lledsmar
04:00:36 AM May 11th 2016
While I agree on pollution of steam trains (Industrial revolution wise), I wouldn't say they're bad.
lledsmar
04:06:45 AM May 11th 2016
They left a legacy and DTD is neither good and/or bad, just bad.
JulianLapostat
04:17:29 AM May 11th 2016
Look the fact is today we don't see Steam Powered Trains aside from museums and period movies.

We use more fuel efficient trains. We don't burn coal to move from one place to another. Steam Power is replaced with something more advanced and practical.

So I say it stays.
HighCrate
08:45:14 AM May 11th 2016
Again: Deader Than Disco isn't "replaced with something more practical but still a subject of nostalgia." It's "dead, gone, and ONLY remembered with derision."

With the exception of the odd Single-Issue Wonk like Jhonny here, when people remember steam locomotives, they don't say, "Oh, God, remember when we used to burn coal to move trains? How were we ever so ass-backwards?"

They say, "Well, it may not be practical any more, but by God, there was just something magical about that era of rail travel." And most of them don't even bother with that first part.

It's Not an Example. At all.
Jhonny
10:13:31 AM May 11th 2016
And there are people who say "Do you remember how we used to go to Hertie and they had everything you wanted?" - does not keep Hertie from being dead. Deader than dead in fact, the name has disappeared from all registries. If the fact that no nostalgia exists is necessary for the trope to apply, there are some things that should be removed from the list.

And yes an announcement of "Let's take the Denver and Rio Grande steam train to Albuquerque at 12:30" would get you looked at about the same as saying "Let's go to Hertie to buy a corsage" - someone not living in this century. Now I like railroads as much as the next person (in fact I don't actively dislike steam trains), but I am realist enough to see: Steam is dead. Has been for quite some time. And the future of rail travel is bright, fast and - electric.

And arguing electric trains are dead is probably from someone from a certain geographic region. I won't presume anything, but ridership in Europe has been on a solid upward trend for decades now. Especially on high speed lines.

Larkmarn
11:18:00 AM May 11th 2016
Except you're willfully ignoring our definition of Deader Than Disco. Hell, it's why Steam Never Dies. It's not just "gone forever" it's "gone forever and thank goodness, how was that ever popular?" Public opinion on it has to have soured, which it has not. If anything, Nostalgia Filter has endeared it more to people.
lledsmar
12:40:56 PM May 11th 2016
edited by lledsmar
End of topic
HighCrate
01:24:10 PM May 11th 2016
"If the fact that no nostalgia exists is necessary for the trope to apply, there are some things that should be removed from the list."

Yes.
Jhonny
03:42:24 PM May 11th 2016
So, we should go through those things and probably there will be debate which amount of nostalgia counts as "no nostalgia". For example I personally have no nostalgia for suburbs, but some people whose mind is stuck in the fifties might think differently...
BackgroundGuy
Topic
11:03:03 AM Apr 11th 2016
I wanted to add Scientology to the page, it's a pretty clear-cut example to me but I don't know how to do it without inviting trouble. Some collaboration, perhaps? Anyone wanna help out?
JulianLapostat
12:02:15 PM Apr 11th 2016
I don't think Scientology quite qualifies because it was never a mainstream idea to begin with, nor any significant movement. It had supporters in small pockets of influential celebrities and businessmen, but that was it. There was never any major Scientology movie or any such thing.
TairaMai
Topic
09:22:19 PM Jul 11th 2015
What's with the cutting of a lot of the examples under business (i.e. Radio Shack)?

Yes there needs to be more non-US examples, but many businesses in film and online are based in the US. I'm sure there are non-US retail establishments that appear in films and television that are now Deader Than Disco, they should be included as well.
SeptimusHeap
02:54:15 AM Jul 12th 2015
You'll have to ask phoenix on this.
Jhonny
12:05:50 PM Apr 11th 2016
Karstadt and the likes are also dying out... I don't know if other European countries have had similar experiences...
matruz
Topic
12:45:59 PM May 14th 2015
edited by matruz
The Atheism+ entry should be present in the page, the movement although divisive as mentioned was indeed popular and very big when it was first proposed, and also as it was mentioned the behavior of the proponents was the cause for it to fall from popularity, these are objective facts. Also the entry is not intended a Take That at feminists or "Social Justice Warriors" per se, just the radical and militant ones, if anything maybe then entry could be reworded to be more neutral.
SeptimusHeap
03:50:18 PM May 14th 2015
These things usually aren't "objective facts". And even when they are this page puts more emphasis on the popularity than the reasons, so I'd focus on popularity aspects.
matruz
05:53:19 PM May 15th 2015
Fair enough, I will modify the entry focusing more on how it popular it was and how it fell from popularity without getting into too much details that could be interpreted the wrong way.
Buscemi
Topic
05:44:43 PM Aug 12th 2014
Would "cash for gold" businesses fit? These were everywhere in the late 2000's/early 2010's but have mostly died off in recent years, along with attempts to bring the US back to the gold standard.
SeptimusHeap
12:40:46 AM Aug 13th 2014
Nah, not even close. There is still that idea around.
Buscemi
10:28:22 PM Sep 1st 2014
But it has gone away considerably from its heyday. In a way, austerity (which is here) replaced it in a political sense while business-wise, the latest boom has become e-cigs (which is bound to join this list in the next few years since it's been revealed to not be worth the money).
SeptimusHeap
01:20:14 AM Sep 2nd 2014
That only means its importance has dropped. Not that it's gone away entirely.
DavidDelony
Topic
11:05:42 AM Nov 11th 2013
Technology Marches On might be more applicable to a lot of these entries rather than Deader Than Disco.
TheLyniezian
Topic
05:31:00 PM Jun 24th 2013
Is it at all possible to make this page any less US-centric? Or at least point out when examples primarily concern the US?
gkong3
10:29:35 AM Jul 25th 2014
Yeah... but as most tropers think that the USA is all there is to the world, probably because most tropers are American, it behooves the non-American troper to make the necessary changes. And to be honest, I'm not that gung-ho about replacing the wall of text that is this page.
Collapse/Expand Topics
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/remarks.php?trope=DeaderThanDisco.RealLife