Discussion DarthWiki / DethroningMomentOfSuck

I think it's better to PM the troper who wrote the response and say something like "the troper who added the DMoS entry you responded to has deleted their entry, so please edit your entry so it can stand on its own". You should probably specify which entry you're talking about in the PM.

No, just misfortune for you. Now if they did something careless that allowed the trojan, and it's something anyone familiar with computer viruses would know not to do, that would be a dethroning moment.

It was the day of the stream who KNOWS how many were infected!!!!

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No, we don't need emphasis here at all.

Why don't we need emphasis? What's the big deal?

Because it's tantamount to screaming "THIS FUCKING SUCKS AND I FUCKING HATE IT!!!! :-@ :-@ :-@" No thanks.

No, I don't think so.

You do realize these complaints aren't without warrant right? They wouldn't be here otherwise.

Complaining about a particular dead baby joke on a show that practically runs on Dead Baby Comedy doesn't seem warranted to me.

One particular incident that comes to mind, which I couldn't help but comment on(with just a minor and emotionally-neutral factual correction, but still), were the complaints about the "Toy Story 4" sketch on the Robot Chicken section. They basically amounted to: "I know that this show is supposed to be offensive and childhood-raping, but still..." They were establishing a Moral Event Horizon for a show that never claimed to draw that line in the first place and then bitched about that arbitrary line being crossed.

Seems to be a running theme of sorts for this part of the wiki, and it amuses me. That's all.

Ometta6, you win Tv Tropes.

I read it for exactly the same reason, and have the same reaction. That's pretty much its only use, other than giving fanboys a place to whine about how their favorite show is Ruined FOREVER so they don't muck up the rest of the wiki.

Oh yes, how dare people complain about something they don't like? That automatically makes them "babies".

I think that's the point. People emphasized so much that the mods just banned it entirely. Inconvenient, of course, but that's why they did it (I'm assuming).

So, I'm guessing they just want all of us to seem robotic in what we write. Is that it?

Kinda defeats the purpose of this site in the first place, because plain-speak is what Wikipedia is for already. Part of the purpose of this site was to speak freely.

Yeah, the page is now incredibly generic and boring to read. It's now monotone and emotionless, which completely goes against the general nature of the way you'd think to speak these like.

Well were you guys expecting anything different? This isn't TV Tropes anymore! It's Wikipedia Tropes!

And discussion thread deletion in 3...2...1...

You guys realize that the purpose of the wiki isn't to catalog a bunch of screamed complaining, right?

Seriously, not looking like a bunch of raving, whining fanboys is a good thing. You're basically saying that it's bad that the admins have put a rule up to keep people from throwing a full-on temper tantrum.

Going by what you just said, that makes me question why this page exists to begin with.

A lot of people ask that question. The admins in particular. Whether or not to just chop the whole thing off has been debated quite a bit. I believe it exists because some complaining is going to be inevitable, and this gives the complainers a place to do it without mucking up the regular pages.

Right now, I'm thinking of running my own forum at some point, which will be titled The Crowning Moment, exactly for the same purpose that this trope and its family serve, but to allow more stuff as well (e.g. use of screenshots or other images, free emphasis, free from other people's edits, real-life examples allowed, full-out reviews, etc.). Especially since Crowning Moment of Awesome (haven't checked C Mo Funny or C Mo Heartwarming) aren't bound by the same rules as this page. (Last I checked, I saw several double- and real-life-examples there.)

At the moment, though, not really an option for me, since I don't have a job, and thus have no stable income to support such a site, and I'm more focused on other stuff in life anyway.

In any case, I suppose I could agree with a rule against entire sentences or clauses being emphasized, but with certain individual words or phrases, I think I might ask that at least emphasis be allowed for that.

I think you have a good idea, but I don't think that Real Life examples would be a good idea, considering it could be used to complain about...other things. Please don't make me elaborate, for the text might wind up NSFW (to put it lightly).

Seriously. Putting emphasis on a certain word isn't "screaming". AFAIK, that's not really how language processing works.

Agreed.

It was because of the following discussion in April in Ask The Tropers:

harryhenry:"Ok, in the Web Original section of Dethroning Moment of Suck, a lot of the entries are entire episodes of a web show, rather than moments within those episodes. Are there different rules in the Web Original section for what counts as a "Moment"?"

harryhenry:"Bump."

Fighteer: "I would think that the same rules would apply. Tighten it up to the specific thing that was disliked. "

harryhenry: "So should I delete the entries that are about entire episodes like usual? "

Fighteer: "Yes."

harryhenry: "According to "Ecclytennysmithylove", The rules don't say anything about "no episodes". So should I put them back? "

Septimus Heap: "No, because the rules do say "specific moments only" - no way an episode is a "moment". "

Mag Bas: "A lot of entries in other pages are about entire episodes, not only one moment. Clean-up time? "

crazysamaritan: "Correct."

Mag Bas: "Okay, thanks."

jinxmenow: "Did a quick slim-down of the main Web Original page. Going back to edit more soon. "

jinxmenow: "It turns out there are a number of subpages which had several examples that were just "this entire episode", and when they were removed, the page itself only had one or two examples. The remaining examples were moved, but there will need to be cuts made to these pages:

Collegehumor Death Battle Confused Matthew The Amazing Atheist The Spoony Experiment Yu Gi Oh! The Abridged Series "

crazysamaritan: "That belongs in the Cut List. :) Thanks for keeping the wiki Cool. "

jinxmenow: "The Zero Punctuation page needs editing, but has been locked. "

crazysamaritan: "Then you go to the forums. In the Frequently Asked Questions forum, there's a pinned post for Editing Locked Pages. Read the instructions on the first page for how to post new edits for those pages. "

jynxmenow: "Thanks."

The start of that discussion makes it sound like there were already rules about this though. Where were they created?

The reasoning there seems very flimsy anyway-a moment doesn't only mean "a short period of time", it also means "a particular stage in something's development or a course of events". An episode is a stage in the development of a show. And if it's to the specific thing that was disliked, what if the basic plot of the episode is what's disliked? Would listing the plot of an episode be acceptable, or would it just be the same as listing an entire episode? And again, did nobody even bring up that the page specifically says it can be an entire episode? (I can't find the discussion you're talking about, so I'm asking these questions here.)

The rules have been there for long. Using them against "whole episode" examples is relatively more recent though.

^But in the initial post I was asking about using them against whole episode examples. I know the page has always said "specific moments only" (or at least it has since I first saw it), but I find the claim that episodes aren't moments to be questionable.

A tv series is, typically, a series of short duration movies. And in more than a case, they were released in theaters originally. (The original Tom & Jerry shorts, by example.)And this if you are speaking only about series with episodes with less than half hour of duration - many long duration movies are part of a series(Alien, A Nightmare In Elm Street, Lord of The Rings, Star Wars...). In other words, the overlap between "the entire episode" and "the entire movie" is really big.

^But the DMO Ss are for shows, not episodes, right? If the DMO Ss were only for individual episodes rather than entire shows, then there wouldn't be any reason to not allow more than one example per work. And as I said above, an episode is a moment within the larger show.

Distinguishing between "episode" and "moment" seems especially bizarre when talking about web original works, for which "the entire episode" can be two minutes or less.

If a work has its own subpage, there should not be examples on the medium pages.

What I mean is, you could put a Dethroning Moment example on the primary anime section, but if an anime show has its own Dethroning separate page, you can then put up another example.

Suddenly, the one example limit for the main anime Dethroning page no longer really applies if you just keep adding Dethroning pages for certain shows.

Yes, I got you. The idea I've offered is the fix.

The rule is one moment per work, not per page.

Maybe the ending of an arc is lackluster?

An arc or an episode is part of the work and not the entire work. In my opinion, mentioning an arc or an episode should be allowed as long as you explain why you think it's bad. It makes the page more versatile. DMoS is what you call lowest point of a work, and the lowest point can be longer than a single moment of a few seconds/minutes.

I think we should. If not, just put in the 'Others' page

Here

I'm going to add editing another person's entry is frowned upon, but allowed for the purposes of correcting grammar, punctuation, red links, and Square Peg Round Trope.

I'm very sorry for the misspelling. :( I remembered going back and trying to correct it a few times. I also had to quickly re-edit an entry example I just put in(Regular Show) and had to fix my mistakes several times. ^_^*... Whenever I realized my spelling mistake, I go back and try to fix.

Possibly. However, when you have a really popular series, especially one that's been around for a while, odds are that someone, somewhere is going to find a moment that they cannot forgive. And remember, it's subjective. Even if you find a particular moment that you agree is terrible, you might not agree with someone who says it's a DMOS.

Any work with a sufficiently large fanbase is probably going to have a moment or two listed, regardless of how good it is. Many posters, unfortunately, take this page as an excuse to complain about every minute detail of a work that they felt was subpar, and some seem to entirely miss the point of what they're complaining about. There are legitimate examples, but definitely don't let this page affect your opinion of work.

That sounds like a good strategy. I've seen waaay too many examples that are just, "This particular moment offended me, so now the entire work is Ruined Forever". It would certainly cut out the worst of the fanboy bitching, and probably shorten the page a lot. The only problem would be when someone posts a moment for a very obscure work that no-one knew about.

I think it was originally intended to be the Darth Wiki counterpart of CMOA, but then people started using it as a place to whine. At this point that's more or less all it is, so rerailing it would be extremely difficult if not impossible.

If we have a Crowning Moments of Awesome Awesomeness page on TV Tropes, then I think it's fair to also have a Dethroning Moments of Bad Horribleness page, to keep the Idealism-to-Cynicism balance in equilibrium.

So if we have Gushing About Characters You Like, should we balance it with "Complain About Characters You Don't Like"? I don't think so. And DMOS pretty much amounts to a similar amount of complaining.

That really makes no sense. There's no reason why TV Tropes needs to have this balance that probably nobody pays attention to, especially if it means keeping around what is basically a hate-centered version of Troper Tales.

Even assuming this probably nonexistent balancing act is important enough to maintain, a solid number of entries do not necessarily imply the poster stopped watching whatever it was after seeing it. I specifically bring up the Advertising page, since you really can't quit an advertisement. The closest approximation would be boycotting the product the commercial is for, which would both be more of a (not-allowed) Real Life example (as in more for the product and its company than the commercial advertising it), and an implication that the person posting it has some serious issues that have nothing to do with the actual advertisement anyway, unless the the ad is outright and blatantly racist or some such, which would probably cut that section down to maybe two or three examples.

Besides, a lot of people tend to use this as an excuse to complain about creators they don't like. Very blatantly is the Family Guy page, where many of the examples are just passively stating that they didn't find a joke or episode particularly funny, then just a giant middle finger because they personally hate Seth Mac Farlane.

In other words, why does TV Tropes really need this thing for anything? Like it's been said a dozen or so times on this page, it serves no purpose that Wall Banger, Headscratchers, Just Bugs Me, and probably a dozen or so other tropes don't already serve and it's mostly just an excuse to point and laugh at how ridiculous people's opinions are. If they really hate the kid from the Cheerio's commercial that much, let them create a Tumblr blog or something, the internet provides hundreds of ways to get their opinion out there, hell let them post it in one of the other similar tropes. This is that one thing that could easily be deleted and nothing would really be effected at all.

Agreed. While there are a few legitimate dethroning moments I can respect (like one concise and non-whiny criticism about the Madoka movie's soundtrack), most of it is just an excuse to complain. It's not necessary, and it needs to be nuked.

To me this trope always just seemed like Wall Banger with added undertones of Ruined FOREVER.

Or we could just rename it "Moment Of Suck".

I don't see any point to changing it. Lots of examples I see are entire episodes anyway.

Now we don't have a Complaining about Shows you don't Like page.

Good.

I think I would appreciate this trope being called just Moment of Suck, just like how CMOA is now just MOA.

If an "example" is factually incorrect or ridiculous by any standard, it should be removed. Examples should not be removed based on minor disagreement, since yes, this is opinion-based. Can you specify where this happened?

Or it's that people have such varying tastes that different things set them off.

No, definitely the former. Irritates me we can't use Troper Tales for this entry, really. :(

You can't just apply motives like that just because you don't agree. It smacks of Complaining About Complaining.

I really think "217" is right. A DMOS is a bad moment in a series. NOT A SLIGHTLY OFFENSIVE GAG. People are taking the jokes way too seriously. It may just be my opinion, but sheesh. These people are WAY too easily offended, and considering the fact that Just Bugs Me is essentially the same thing, it goes without saying that this trope sucks.

I wholeheartedly agree. I can't see how an otherwise damn-near-flawless work can be utterly invalidated by a slightly offensive throwaway gag. It also helps to view things in a different context (i.e. in Mortal Kombat 9, Raiden's offer to Quan Chi illustrates how desperate he is to save the future; not to mention that the offer is basically forgotten once Raiden realizes what "he must wins" really means).

The entire page reeks of BAAAAAAAAAAW. It's mostly about people whining about little things that irritate them. Hell, it's mostly just a bunch of Fan Dumb moaning and bitching.

The dethroning moment page, ironically, is a dethroning moment of suck.

Not to mention a lot of the complaints seem like they come from the types of people who wouldn't like the show even in its best moments. To be honest, I wouldn't be too surprised if a lot of the people on the Family Guy section are from the Parents Television Council.

Or could it be that people just have different values than you do? If many, many people agree on a single moment (which certainly seems to be the case with shows like Family Guy), than it's not just one person with no sense of humour, it's now in the realm of general consensus. Besides, it's stated very clearly that DMoS is subjective. Do yourself a favor and take a look at the mission statement of Darth Wiki.

Sicky, I'm not saying it shouldn't be here. If you'll recall, I was the one above expressing joy at how easily nerds are offended and how their unwarranted rage makes me laugh. I don't want this section deleted. I like coming here every now and then and seeing how seriously people can take a cartoon with a talking dog that suffers from alcoholism and a giant chicken that gets into epic fights with a mentally retarded Irish drunk.

It's for venting. Also, some fan communities have established things like the worst moments. Take "Spock's Brain" from Star Trek.

But we have forum topics for that. And like I said, Wall Banger and Just Bugs Me fulfills the same role.

I'm saying this because a lot of it comes from the Web Original. That and some are just plain stupid. We're best off using those other pages for venting.

"And like I said, Wall Banger and Just Bugs Me fulfills the same role."

No. Just because there is plenty of overlap does not mean it's the same thing.

"That and some are just plain stupid."

No. Just because you disagree with some is not reason to cut this.

This is not disagreeing. Take a look. For instance, a Simpson's dethroning moment of suck is a cut away gag of Homer going "Mmmm, porkpies." Really?! And there's more like that.

If someone thinks that is the worst moment, no matter how silly it is to you, that is an example.

But it's so retarded! No one thinks that is a good reason. And besides, the Simpsons used cutaway gags. I might as well say that the Nostalgia Chick sucks because she used cutaway gags in My Little Pony. Not the best example, but it just shows you how dumb this all is.

"But it's so retarded!"

If you call something you don't like name such as that, your credibility is shot. It looks like you are Complaining About Complaining.

"No one thinks that is a good reason."

Just because you don't think that is a good reason doesn't mean no one does. That's Opinion Myopia.

"I might as well say that the Nostalgia Chick sucks because she used cutaway gags in My Little Pony."

That is not what this covers. This is the worst moment of a work, even if you like the work. What you wrote is not an example.

Yeah. I shouldn't have used that.

But the whole "Mmmmm Porkpies" is so petty and so ridiculous. I mean really? You're claiming that's worse than Homer getting raped by a panda for example? Really? I'll find some more to talk about, but this is pretty common on these pages.

And I doubt anyone thinks the Mmmm...porkpies thing isn't a stupid DMOS, but then again, it's hard to ask for the opinion of people.

Well it seems silly to me, but if someone elaborated on why, it should stay. On the other hand, if the example is really short, you might have grounds for disputing it as a possibly joke entry. See if you can take that up here.

Can someone explain to me why we even need this trope? Yes just because there is some overlap with Headscratchers and wallbanger, but there is also a lot more overlap with So Bad Its Horrible too. So if it doesn't fit in any three of those catagories...what exactly is left? Complaining About Shows You Dont Like the page?

Why not keep delete the page and keep it to the forums?

Headscratchers and Complaining About Shows You Dont Like are not the same thing. Headscratchers is meant for people to address plotholes and the like and get in-universe explanations that fill those holes. It's about gaining more perspective on something and finding out things you yourself wouldn't have thought of.

Complaining About Shows is meant to keep people from complaining on a Work or Trope page to keep the main wiki objective.

DMoS is about venting about things you used to like, but now you don't because the creaters jumped the shark, went too far with a joke or message, or changed the tone of the show to something you no longer enjoy. It's about something that irrevocably ruined the work for you. At the same time, they've made it clear that if you want to add something, it has be accurate, and you have to justify it. It is subjective, but people aren't meant to just list jokes they didn't like, it has to be something more significant than that. If people are putting petty, small things on there, they can be challenged and/or deleted.

That's what the Darth Wiki is for. For satisfying people's desire for these kinds of things without ruining the objectivity of the wiki itself.

I don't know why, but I do have a suggestion: Add a lot more examples or someone get rid of it. Who that someone is will depend on time.

And now I have created it! However, I don't know if I was supposed to ask form permission, so if I was, feel free to ban me, but I felt it would be useful for sorting things out for that franchise.

Nope

Well, if Naruto can get a page based on moments from it's Shippuden episodes (at least, I'm assuming that many of it's moments came from Shippuden), then I think Yu-Gi-Oh! could have a page on it's own merits as well. However, I do think it should list what series these moments came from (i.e., whether it came from the normal Yu-Gi-Oh!, GX, 5D's, or Zexal) just to make things easier.

I do not know, but there seem to be enough that it should have its own list, noneoftheless. Either this guy needs to get over his (possibly unhealthy) obsession with the show and accept that there are bad moments, or there is something we're both missing.

Not to mention half the Family Guy page is just deconstructions of tasteless jokes to begin with; should those really count?

Any religion or political party would be listed ("X is the worst thing the Mormons/Democrats/etc. did"), and the natter would flow.

OK... sounds fair. Is there a place other than TV Tropes where Dethroning Moments of Suck CAN be posted despite the trolling that would follow?

I dunno. A political forum or something? The internet's a big place.

I have an idea! We would rather we didn't have anything particularly frightening or disgusting put on here. Would you really want to know that the moment involved in the worst um...experience they had in their life?

Plot twist is definitely allowed, depending on how you write the pairing than that should be fine as well.

Use the Cut List.

Okay, I tried to add the Mythbusters page, keeping in mind I was only allowed to add one entry, and it gets deleted a day later. I try adding it instead to the Mythbusters YMMV page and it gets deleted an hour later with the excuse that the page already existed (when it doesn't). Are we not allowed to add to this trope any more or am I just doing it wrong?

Okay, you don't need to make a new page for one show. I moved it to the Live Action TV page.

Thank you. I'm still learning how stuff works.

Nope, it's not allowed on YMMV pages.

See What Goes Where on the Wiki

No, because this is still the nadir, and unlike those other pages, has been kept that way. Plus to broaden it would invite outright Complaining About Shows You Dont Like.

It didn't broaden or loosen C Mo A, though. Just kinda passive-aggressively took a shot at the contributors because everyone was too lazy to just go in and fix the dang thing.

Actually, I take that back. It would invite people to just flame away.

Somewhere on this page or the archived discussion, Z said that it was veering too close to real life. Considering how many people help remove bad examples now, I think that it might work.

Then the descriptions need work. But the examples for this do not have to be a wall banger.

No it does not. The Noun needs to read it better.

Ah, wait, now I get it. Nevermind.

There hasn't been a DMOS section for Wrestling since DMOS was still a single page. It was cut because the entries were borderlining too close to real life.

If you like, take that up on the forums, and see if it gets support.

BTW, the main reason the rules are not enforced here is that it was used as a way of Complaining About Shows You Dont Like, when this is supposed to be the worst moment of a show, even if you do like it.

Questioning how others could like it should be cut out from those examples.

We already split off into namespaces, and moving to troper tales is for main/ wiki pages.

Fair enough. It's just that 'your personal worst bit of a series' seemse very Troper Tales-y to me, is all.

Darth Wiki and Sugar Wiki have some leeway, as long as the page is appropriate.

Object? I'll be your cheerleader if you do. *bounces and shakes pom-poms*

Should I kill the entire entry or just reword it so it lacks "this troper?"

Reword. Otherwise it looks as though you deleting otherwise legit entries.

Personally, I wouldn't do it. DMOS is supposed to be personal instances of a severe Wall Banger, so obviously there will be instances of "this troper", "I", etc etc.

Agree with the above. This Troper is justifiable in subjective discussion.

Oh, I was under the impression that "this troper" was 100% unacceptable everywhere outside of troper tales and needed to be removed. Since it's a subjective page, there's no helping that.

Okay, comments that are irrelevant to the moment. "I vowed never to watch that show again" is not relevant.

A proper excuse is when something is factually inaccurate and can be easily proven as such. If it begins "To be fair..." chances are it's a Justifying Edit.

And when the former happens, generally you should Repair, Don't Respond.