Um... how exactly was Rose Tyler indirectly responsible for the death of Mickey's parents? (Also, why the hell is Clara not considered this trope?)
I removed this Lance Hunter example awhile back and the original poster has since re-added it.
- Then in the second season, because the writers failed to learn their lesson, they decided to immediately give marginally canon but barely recognizable Lance Hunter a ton of screen time over more popular newcomers Trip and Mack and paired him off with a highly anticipated female character who begged him to stay on the show when most people would have been glad to see him go. Coulson even allowed him to stay despite betraying them, which is usually portrayed as Coulson's Berserk Button, and has talked about how they need him on the team for competence we have yet to see. The fandom, at best feels neutral towards the guy or else feels varying degrees of dislike for him, due to the fact he whines constantly and consistently manages to make an ass of himself, yet he continues to get a ridiculous amount of screentime. Hilariously, May is once again the only character to be blunt about not liking him.
In the interest of not starting an Edit War, I'm just going to post why I don't think he qualifies here.
Hated By Fans: Hunter does get some hate, mostly from shippers upset that he replaced Hawkeye as Mockingbird's love interest in this continuity. But I think it's a stretch to say a majority or even a large part of the audience dislikes him. Given that the post was clearly written by someone with a lot of disdain for the character, I'm inclined to think they're exaggerating.
Loved (or worshipped) by the writers: This one is hard to quantify, but to my knowledge there haven't been any interviews or the like where the creators mention their fondness for Hunter or put him over other characters.
Put into big scenes for no reason: He has a central role in his introductory episode and the episode immediately after it. After that he becomes another member of the team, and while he's in most episodes he's not featured more prominently than anyone else. Story wise, he has a role in the subplot regarding Bobbi and Mack's secret. He has no significant ties to the main HYDRA or Inhuman arcs at all.
Talked up by the other characters: Not excessively, or at least not to the degree that Skye was. On a show where pretty much every character is an expert at something, I don't think being established as a badass really counts as shilling. The OP mentioned Coulson recruiting him in spite of a betrayal because of his skills, but it was actually because of his mindset, wanting to avenge his friend or, as Coulson put it "do the wrong thing for the right reasons" and because Mockingbird vouched for him.
Edited by Tyrathius
- Missy the first female incarnation of The Master from Doctor Who is this to a large chunk of Who fandom at least. Whilst some fans did praise Michelle Gomez's performance many fans still despised her character for a variety reasons. First of all there is the fact that she killed Osgood, a character who was beloved by the fandom. Worst still Moffat said he killed Osgood off to make Missy seem more threatening. Her actions also caused another fan favorite Brigadier Alistair Gordon Lethbridge Stewart to become a Cyberman. Furthermore fandom is split to say the least on whether or not Time Lords should change gender when they regenerate. Those who were against the idea naturally despised Missy, whilst those who were for it still had problems with her being portrayed as another so called "Moffat woman". A flirty, femme fatale who forces herself on the main male character like River Song and Moffat's version of Irene Adler. Also the fact that she has romantic feelings for the Doctor has also caused many people to hate her too. As they feel this changes the dynamic of the Master and the Doctor. In the classic era it was always Word of God that they were brothers and there were certainly no romantic connotations during the classic era either. However despite this Moffat has insisted the character was an instant hit with everybody and plans to bring her back. He also refuses to bring Osgood (who was an instant hit among the majority of fans) back despite several online petitions so as not to undermine Missy's menace.
There is a dispute going on regarding whether or not she qualifies. Please discuss the issue here instead of continuing the back-and-forth.
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Um, doesn't that qualify as a main character?
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
While Missy is not exactly universally beloved, major parts of the fandom do like her, making her more of a Base Breaker. The fact that she's a villain, and several of the examples cited above are responses to her Kicking The Dog, while others reek of Ship-to-Ship Combat, makes it sound like it was written by someone with Opinion Myopia.
I do not appreciate being told I have Opinion Myopia. No offence but I think you are being more guilty of that. I have provided reasons as to why Missy is hated by a huge chunk of fandom yu haven't provided any reasons to counter it. Her killing Osgood was not just a kick the dog moments. Moffat came out and said that it only happened to make her seem more scary so naturally fans hated her for that.
Also are you seriously saying that a huge chunk of fandom don't absolutely hate the idea of a female Doctor or Master? Are you really saying that that in itself never mind everything else isn't enough to make Missy more divisive than say John Simm.
Then yes there is the fact that she is another Moffat woman, big flirty and in love with the male main hero. Yeah because we all know that NOBODY has slated Moffat for writing these types of characters.
She's more than just a base breaker. All characters could be base breakers.
If you include Rachel Berry or Brian from Family Guy both of whom are not universally despised either and are actually far more loved than Missy is then Missy has to be included.
To not include Missy and ignore the opinions of many who hate her and have even stopped watching the show because of her is wrong.
That would only qualify her as The Scrappy, though. Creator's Pet requires a few more things beyond The Scrappy.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Deleted Lance Hunter from the Agents Of SHIELD section because I don't think he's unpopular or important enough to count. Frankly, it sounds to me like the original writer had a case of Opinion Myopia.
There is no Planet B
Pulling for discussion:
- Inverted in Father Ted with John and Mary. They appear in almost every episode of season one and are quite popular with fans but Graham Linehan used them far less as the series progressed, feeling they were a bit of an Overly Long Gag (they absolutely loathe each other and are constantly inflicting emotional and physical abuse on one another).
I don't think this trope can be Played With in this sense. It either fits the criteria (fans hate them, creators love them, characters praise them, they are in focus often), or it doesn't.
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Seems just like a straight example of Ensemble Dark Horse.
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Pulling for discussion -
- Wade Wells in Sliders. Everyone male in every dimension falls in love with her. Not obnoxious, but nothing special either.
- Considering the extremely limited recurring cast in early seasons, this is more of an effect of The Smurfette Principle than anything else. Though it would have been interesting for the odd male guest star to fall in love with Quinn or Rembrandt.
- Not even necessarily that, but for example they could have male team members romance female natives more frequently, or not always romance anyone at all to have an adventure. No need to have every romance involve Wade, let alone have Quinn and Rembrandt both pine for her.
Only one specific aspect of the character is being seen as overly-pushed (guys fall for her) and there are other tropes that fit this aspect better. Also, there were romances with characters that weren't Wade. However, as the sole female on the team (in the first seasons) romance with male natives naturally tended to be handed in her direction. There was no other option for the writers, as there was no other female character.
Considering that Wade's character was consistently downgraded by the writers before her eventual unpleasant fate, it's hard to argue that she was a creator's pet. Her replacement was subject to a brief period of shilling but was then retooled to become more likeable.
Edited by 86.181.6.69
Sorcerer in training
Linked this under his entry: http://csi.wikia.com/wiki/Raymond_Langston
. Seriously, too painful to read for the poor guy's Creator given "awesomeness".
Removed Gwen Cooper example:
- Gwen Cooper from Torchwood. In a show where Anyone Can Die, the writers have specifically stated she won't because she's the main character, despite the show being pitched and advertised as a vehicle for John Barrowman's character, Jack Harkness.
I don't remember the writers ever saying that about Gwen. In any case, the show's been put on hold since RTD doesn't plan on continuing it for now. It's kind of moot point. If links could be provided where a writer or producer explicitly said that Gwen wouldn't die, then there might be some grounds for calling Gwen a Creator's Pet.
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Gwen can't be a Creator's Pet because she's the main character. Next?
Technically, Torchwood's an ensemble piece. However she is a main character out of the five in the ensemble. I was just pointing out that she's not overshadowing the other main characters. It was known from the beginning that Jack was immortal, but everyone else was up for grabs.
Edited by EMY3K
I'm taking out this too-long rant on Quinn in How I Met Your Mother:
- And then of course there's Quinn in season 7. Oh where to begin with her? She is such an odd example in that she has become this despite only being in about the last third of the season. Several more interesting and generally more important storylines from the first half of the season were either put on hold or dropped altogether for this one character. Quinn is introduced as a stripper of all things, and apparently were all supposed to believe that Barney falls in love with her all within the course of one episode when it had taken him three whole years just for him to even realize he was in love with Robin. Two episodes later, Quinn is exposed as a gold-digging tramp who mercilessly uses her profession to constantly manipulate and trick Barney into giving her his money, yet when he finds out he still pursues her, and by the end of the episode they are dating. It dosen't even come close to ending there, another two episodes after that Barney and Quinn are living together, and this is after she had basically treated all of his friends like crap, and had even pressured him into playing along. To make matters worse, the rest of the cast quickly forgave her, and actually think they are perfect together. The next couple of episodes try to portray Quinn as a sweet and awesome person, with Lily even going to her for marriage advice. They make a tremendous effort to portray Barney and Quinn's relationship as loving and great, when in reality it comes off as incredibly rushed and forced. It dosen't help that almost every single episode at this point tries to include Quinn in some way, there is so much focus on her and Barney's relationship in the last few episodes of the season that that other characters, specifically Robin, Lily, and Marshall were all pushed to the sidelines. However, the worst comes at the end of the season when Barney wants her to give up stripping and Quinn dosen't initially want too and it finally looks like this will be the downfall of their relationship, but of course she ends up quitting for him in the end because she loves him so much and they get engaged! And the gang's reaction? They rejoice, no one seems at all bothered by the fact that Barney and Quinn have only known each other for three months! Even though they revealed Robin as the the woman Barney ultimately ends up with at the end of the episode, many fans hated the season finale. The producers admitted in an interview that they love Quinn and Becki Newton, the actress that plays her, and that they consider her one of the best parts of season 7. It's even been recently confirmed that on the season 7 DVD, the producer's are doing audio commentaries on episodes such as "The Drunk Train" and "Karma", two episodes that Quinn plays a prominent role in. At this point, she is easily one of the most hated characters of season 7, if not the entire series. There is a reason a large portion of the fans call this part of the season "The Quinn Show".
She really doesn't fit this trope for reasons I'll go over point-by-point:
"Several more interesting and generally more important storylines from the first half of the season were either put on hold or dropped altogether for this one character."
The only cases where this might be true would be in Barney's relationship with Nora and Robin's with Kevin. Both ended before Quinn was introduced, so directly this simply isn't true.
"Quinn is introduced as a stripper of all things,"
There are some characters for whom it would be ludicrous to think they'd fall for a stripper. Barney isn't one of them. The only standards Barney has ever shown in the women he dates is that they be 1) sexy, 2) over 17, and 3) under 30. (Actually, I'm not even sure 2) has ever been explicitly established.)
"and apparently were all supposed to believe that Barney falls in love with her all within the course of one episode"
How's that any different for how he fell in love with Nora?
"Two episodes later, Quinn is exposed as a gold-digging tramp who mercilessly uses her profession to constantly manipulate and trick Barney into giving her his money, yet when he finds out he still pursues her, and by the end of the episode they are dating."
This is the Biblical equivalent of ranting about the speck in Quinn's eye while ignoring the log in Barney's eye. Barney isn't just a guy who's had sex with lots of women, he's a guy who had sex with lots of women by lying to them! By pretending to be a nicer guy than he is, sometimes by pretending to be other people altogether, (TedMosebyIsAJerk.com, anyone?), mostly by pretending he's interested in a long term relationship with them when all he wants is the one night stand. Afterwards, he abandons them, sometimes in the cruelest most vicious ways possible, like the time he took a girl out camping, banged her in a sleeping bag, then deliberately drove off without her, leaving her alone in the wilderness. By sincerely dating a woman who's exploiting him, Barney's getting a dose of his own medicine. It's why the episode's called "Karma". And it's a pretty mild dose, since by the end, Quinn decides she really does care for him. It would be as if Barney went back to one of the women he's lied to and seduced because he realizes he really cares for her, somehting Barney's never done.
"Barney and Quinn are living together, and this is after she had basically treated all of his friends like crap,"
Her "treating his friends like crap" was an elaborate, but ultimately harmless practical joke to illustrate a point. It was done because Barney and Quinn knew his friends would actively try to break them up, and they were right about that.
"To make matters worse, the rest of the cast quickly forgave her, and actually think they are perfect together."
Yes, because she's just as deceptive and manipulative as Barney is. That's the closest thing to Character Shilling (an essential part of this trope) she's ever gotten, and it isn't much of one.
"with Lily even going to her for marriage advice."
This was quickly explained the one time this happened. Lily needed a girlfriend to talk to and Robin was busy at the time, what with trying to land her helicopter when her pilot had a stroke.
"It dosen't help that almost every single episode at this point tries to include Quinn in some way, there is so much focus on her and Barney's relationship in the last few episodes of the season that that other characters, specifically Robin, Lily, and Marshall were all pushed to the sidelines."
While she has been in every episode since she was introduced, her role in most of them was fairly small,usually no more than 2 scenes. I disagree with the assesment that the others have been sidelined. A great deal has been made of Marshall and Lily preparing for the baby, of Lily's attration to Ranjit, of Marshall and Lily trying to get Robin to move in with them to the suburbs because they hate it there, of the awkwardness that's set in between Ted and Robin after Ted admits he's still in love with her while Robin admits she isn't for him.
"they get engaged! And the gang's reaction? They rejoice"
Yes, because that's what friends do when a friend gets engaged. They rejoice, congratulate the "lucky guy", be friendly and supportive. That's it. There's been none of the excessive Character Shilling for Quinn that Don got. I began watching the show this year, catching up on all the episodes. To me, Don is still a fresh, traumatic memory. I can objectively compare him to Quinn, and there just is no comparison.
"Even though they revealed Robin as the the woman Barney ultimately ends up with at the end of the episode,"
And this is where the whole Creator's Pet argument falls apart. Barney's relationship with Quinn is now officially Doomed by Canon, it's temporary, it won't last. The writers probaby had Barney propose to Quinn mainly so that The Reveal that his future bride is Robin would actually be a surprise, than for any other reason.
"The producers admitted in an interview that they love Quinn and Becki Newton, the actress that plays her,"
Yes, they talk about loving Becki so much they want to cast her as the regular in her own sitcom mid-season once Quinn is inevitably Put on the Bus for being the Romantic False Lead she actually is.
Okay, I wanted to pull Rose and River Song because the so-called Character Shilling isn't Character Shilling at all - the characters have to earn it. The creators saying they like a character is not "Loved by the writers, hated by the fans" because no writer hates a character they write about. Both entries just read like a rant against two characters that are controversial from someone who hates them.
But since there's a note on it, I wanted to raise it here first just in case there was some massive multi-page debate war over it that I don't want to step in.
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Actually, there is no character which is universally hated; The Scrappy and Creator's Pet are now YMMV by default. Furthermore, just because a character is a pet doesn't mean they can't be changed at some point, nor does it mean they don't have their fans (for example, the original Trope Namer, Wesley of Star Trek, had quite a few fans himself, and he is arguably the most famous example). Furthermore, it's shilling on the writers' parts; there's no "earning" or "not earning" it; it's because the writers have chosen to handle them in one manner or another. The respective creators actually stated that Rose and River were their pet creations, as it were. So no, sorry, they are actual examples. Tropes Are Not Good. Tropes Are Not Bad. Speaking as someone who is neutral on the part of both characters, just because a character is up here does not make their existence invalid; it's simply noting the trope.
Also, as there's a note to not change it, please respect that; changing is is just asking for an Edit War and possibly Fan Wank. We don't need that.
Edited by QueenofSwords
Where's the Character Shilling though in the script? There's four criteria, and you're just saying "Well, they're The Scrappy but the writers like them", which is explicitly not this trope.
If you can't find that, they have to go because they clearly don't belong.
Oh, and for that matter, where's the unwarranted Character Focus for any of them?
First of all, that is very clearly not what I was saying. I'm sorry, and I hope noting this isn't rude, but you just appear to be trying to find loopholes here to defend characters you like (and looking at your edit history, you do appear to be concerned with that in your edits). Again, there's nothing wrong with being a fan of someone up here. The shilling for Rose happened in season two, where Rose was gradually upped from her normal self into being the Doctor's one true love, and kept being brought up during Martha's season. For River, it's... actually pointed out in her entry. For Rose, the Character Focus happened on and off during Martha's run, and for River, it was the main arc of Series 6.
ETA: I've brought it up with the moderators, and one of them said that removing an entry, despite the note, is against the rules for this site; furthermore, another moderator said that the Word of God where they're concerned puts a strong case for it. As for the "hated" part; Rose became this during season 2 and after her departure, and River has become this as of season 6. Again, it's impossible to have a character be universally loved or hated, but I've been poking about on the internet to see other fans' reactions, and there has been many an Internet Backdraft on account of those two, but the hatred appears to have started after those respective points.
Edited by QueenofSwords
Since you asked about etiquette, the moderators thread was on Ask The Tropers. I found it already. I'm going to keep that discussion there for now, and hopefully move into the cleanup because entries like this one are going to be an issue. I targeted that one first because I know that show better than some of the others, but there's a bunch of shows on this page and other parts of the namespace that are missing what appear to be a hard set of 4 criteria.
Since you seem to feel strongly about this, definitely participate in the Cleanup Project thread since it's a bit...quiet.
That's not...what Character Focus means at all. Yes, she does technically trump off on her own as stated in the description, but that's because she's (at least temporarily) written out of the show at the time of series 3. We have no idea what she's doing at the time, or even if "at that time" means anything for a show about time travel.
And I have literally no idea what you mean by "upped from her normal self". Apart from a general level of experience with time travel, I don't see that much of a shift of Rose's personality. She had feelings for the Ninth Doctor and she had feelings for the Tenth Doctor. YMMV on how the chemistry "worked" for them, but her general character didn't seem off for series 2. At least not for me.
And I don't think the majority of the fanbase hates her (if she's controversial, then it's clearly Base Breaker. I really don't understand how when The Scrappy is clearly outlined in the four points, you can seriously add "a base breaking example" with a straight face). Why did she win this character poll? Against the person who had her own spinoff series in the finals? Did everyone just blot out an entire David Tennant season? Are they averaging out "awesome Rose" and "awful Rose"?
Also, when River's character focus is the whole point of series 6, love her or leave her, it stops being "put into big scenes for no reason". She's the whole reason behind Amy's "pregnancy" and the Doctor's "death" and the Silence's plan in the fight against the Doctor hinges on raising her.
It's not loopholes, they're just not examples of Creator's Pet, and extremely unlikely to be examples of Character Shilling. They might fit the second point (because really, how many head writers dislike their characters?), but the others?
Edited by OldManHoOh
Personally, I thought Donna is a more solid example of Creator's Pet. She was The Scrappy in her initial appearance, it wasn't until she reappeared in series 4 that she even reached her Base Breaker status. In her case, the shilling took (and was, admittedly, combined with taking a level in badass). The more blatant shilling I see, though, are people repeatedly referring to her as the Doctor's best friend, truest companion, and literally calling her the most important woman in the universe. The way I see it, she definitely gets shilled... but her Scrappy status is admittedly not universal.
The fact she came back because both RTD and Tennant both liked Catherine Tate seems to make her a viable subject for Creator's Pet.
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The Doctor was the only one to refer to Donna as his best friend and Donna about the Doctor. I don't remember anybody else saying it. That being said, it doesn't make Donna stand out other than to state that she's not a romantic interest. Wilf praised her, but it's justified considering he's her grandfather. Donna was the most important person in the universe because of circumstance. It's been a while but I think she was called the most important woman in the universe to her mother, who had never been very supportive in the first place. It was after Donna had lost her memory. Rose called Donna important, but again, it was meant as encouragement. Donna has a very low opinion of herself.
- In the Game Of Thrones adaptation of the A Song Of Ice And Fire novels, the creators added the character of Ros, a recurring prostitute whose purpose serves little more than being naked, appearing in awkward and silly "sexposition" scenes, wasting screen time, and is generally hated by all the fans, yet the creators love her so much that they feel the need to give her more screen time than more popular characters such as the Hound and invent more scenes with her.
Does Ros really count? At this point, she's more of The Watson. She honestly doesn't have more screentime than any of the main characters. She's only in a couple scenes per episode, at most. In those scenes, she's usually with one of the main characters.
Would Oswald Danes from Torchwood Miracle Day count? The audience hated him for obvious reasons but the writers seemed to get him into every scene.
I don't believe he would count, no. The audience is obviously meant to hate Oswald Danes.
It's super effective.
I'm currently halfway through season 2 of rewatching Lost, so I have to ask, at what point did/will Jack constantly cry?
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And now at the beginning of season 5. Still not seeing frequent outbursts.
Does Eddie Murphy on Saturday Night Live really count here? He doesn't fit the criterion of being disliked by the audience.