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C105
topic
12:50:37 AM Sep 18th 2013
I'm not a regular reader of the Hulk comics and not privy to the way the different runs were received by fans, but I just discovered Bruce Jones' run on the series (kinda liked it), and the way it was retconned by Peter David and apparently ignored or despised by anyone on the Internet, while it covered dozens of issues with lots of Character Development. Is it considered a Dork Age by fans ? Otherwise, would it justify the addition of the All Just a Dream trope, and maybe some Armed with Canon from P.David's part ?
CodenameBravo
02:13:30 AM Sep 18th 2013
It is fine to add All Just a Dream. Nightmare did it.
Tuckerscreator
topic
09:52:54 PM Oct 25th 2012
edited by Tuckerscreator
So why is this page called Incredible Hulk, and not The Incredible Hulk, when we have The Mighty Thor, The Incredible Hulk tv show, The Incredible Hulk live action series, and 'The Incredible Hulk'' film? "The" seems to be part of his full name.
Jordan
topic
10:14:58 AM Jun 30th 2011
I'm not a reader of the series, but just noticed the edit. I might be missing context here, but I don't see how there are Unfortunate Implications in writers not using a creepy, stalkerish character. I have read Empowered, but it's been a while, so I'm not totally sure how that relates to this example.
Pupu
11:05:56 AM Jul 1st 2011
edited by Pupu
It is due to Madman seeing their punching each other as a personal S&M relationship, which doesn't make it much fun to engage in a fistfight with him... or at least he has on occasion... his motivations vary from moment to moment for obvious reasons. He's the Leader's brother, but they have never been seen together.

Empowered has a hero called "Maidman" with this as a modus operandi (patterned after Batman, but choose to wear lingerie instead, "as it was less embarrassing than dressing like a furry"). Basically all the criminals he beats up are so embarrassed by being beaten by an overly effeminate man in a drag that they recurrently reform rather than being turned into laughingstocks in the homophobic underworld again, and nobody ever chooses to become part of a rogues gallery or "archenemy".
Jordan
11:17:20 AM Jul 1st 2011
Ah that makes more sense. Still not sure of the unfortunate implications here. Also it reminds me of Watchmen- heroes liking to beat people up and a masochistic "villain"
Pupu
06:29:35 AM Jul 2nd 2011
The unfortunate implications are that punching him automatically means Foe Yay S&M undertones.
DeathNoteFan
topic
03:15:05 AM Apr 21st 2011
Can anybody please put up some theories in the WMG page?
seekquaze11
topic
10:38:50 PM Apr 9th 2011
edited by seekquaze11
On the curbstomp battle trope I have tried to make it more accurate and shorten it to only what is necessary. I feel there may be perhaps too much detail there, but out of respect for the other contributor I have tried to leave as much as possible. In the battle the Hulk did not land several punches and lost a straight fist fight. That is what makes it such a curb stomp battle. The Hulk lost at his own game. The only thunderbolt that actually connected was in the previous issue. Zeus did flare up at the beginning, but nothing connected. After the Hulk sucker punched Zeus another thunderbolt was thrown and it missed. I think that it being Zeus and Hulk losing so badly already implies this is a very, very powerful being Hulk was fighting so stating it is comparable to Galactus is unnecessary. The top of the Hulk page and elsewhere mentions the Hulk's strength so I don't think it is necessary to mention it again here. I don't see what speculation on what would have happened had the Hulk behaved better contributes. The Hulk barged into Zeus's house and started making demands. That alone is considered insulting.
Anaheyla
10:56:43 AM Apr 11th 2011
edited by Anaheyla
In any event, Galactus shits on Zeus.
checkup
02:51:43 AM Apr 12th 2011
edited by checkup
Zeus curbstomped Galactus just previously, and Pak stated that the vast majority of his power was his own, not Mikaboshi's. In addition the old handbooks also stated outright that Zeus is on par with a Watcher (which stalemated G in #1 Galactus Fan Boy John Byrne's "Last Galactus Story") and just short of Galactus.

In addition, Hulk got right back up after the first lightning bolt, as the second issue continued where the first left off, and he did in fact blast Hulk a few times more before starting to pummel him with the same physical power that toppled Galactus, and boasting or not, as proven by that example his physical attacks are just as powerful as his energy projection. Meaning: The original wording was the correct one.
seekquaze11
05:00:44 PM Apr 12th 2011
A few corrections:

1. Pak was unclear how much power was Zeus and how much was Mikaboshi. Pak states: "So I think Zeus is definitely is being augmented by the Chaos King. The Chaos King, as we discover ó spoiler alert! ó is using Zeus as a Trojan horse. So some of that incredible power that Zeus is displaying comes from the Chaos King.At the same time, Zeus is no pushover, and itís been a while since weíve seen Zeus unleash his true, mighty self, and it was a ton of fun giving him a chance to do that. So donít take it all away from him"

Source: http://www.newsarama.com/comics/chaos-war-from-the-field-4-101112.html

So Pak admits Zeus was augment and it is unclear how much. One can easily say Zeus should have lost to Galactus by Galactus expecting his attack to work and Zeus shrugging it off so easily. There is no way to say.

2. What does Zeus's power have to do with this anyway? I don't think anyone is questioning Zeus is powerful. How much compared to Galactus is impossible to say due to too many possible circumstances. And if you ask just about any comic fan to rely on the handbooks as the end all and be all of powers or to rely on What If? stories than they will usually say they are inaccurate or don't really count. All we know is Zeus and Galactus are two very powerful beings. Galactus tends to vary widely from one story to another. In some he is about as powerful as Thor or Hulk. In others Galactus is far more powerful. As for Zeus, since I don't think anyone questioning Zeus's power is an issue I don't see why it needs to be stated. I think its also safe to say that anyone reading this would assume someone that could give the Hulk a severe beating is very, very powerful. So how is it necessary?

3. I have the issue right in front of me. Hulk is down for several moments. He agrees with Hera that Zeus could vaporize him with a thought. Hulk challenges Zeus to a fist fight. Zeus flares up and summons some strong winds, but no more lighting hits the Hulk. Zeus removes his cape and turns to talk to Hera. Hulk sucker punches him when his back is turned. Zeus gets up enraged and throws a lighting bolt, but deliberately misses. He then engages the Hulk in a fist fight and loses. Most of the fight is posted in the sites below:

For Zeus's flare up and Hulks sucker punch: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=preview&id=7698&disp=table

For Zeus missing with the lightning bolt and the fist fight: http://herochat.com/forum/index.php?topic=230023.0

So Zeus does not use more lighting bolts nor does Hulk land several blows. It is a fight fight.

3. The Greek gods are not sociopaths. That is a common misconception. Massive jerks yes, but not sociopaths. Zeus may at times come off as one, but that is generally due to writers focusing on one side of his personality instead of others. In older Marvel comics Zeus comes across as fatherly, empathetic, and kinder. Heck, when Pak wrote the Kid Zeus stories Zeus did not come off as a sociopath. Zeus's behavior here is very understandable. The Hulk essentially came into Zeus's house uninvited and began barking order. Zeus is a very proud being so he did not take that well. Most people would not take the Hulk just barging in like that well.

4. Hulk and his family did not save the universe. Hercules and Amadeus Cho saved the universe. The Hulk family played a part in it, but a small part.

5. What does speculating on how Zeus would have reacted if Hulk has asked contribute to this trope description?

6. Hulk taking on other powerful foes is mentioned several other times in this article and therefore not necessary here. This trope is about Hulk losing a very one-sided battle. It happens to nearly every character that is around long enough.

checkup
08:40:25 AM Apr 15th 2011
edited by checkup
1) Pak said "some", as in "small part". That sounds quite specific to me.

2) It is relevant because it is quite the feat in itself to withstand so many attacks from a being who twice punched or blasted Galactus to the ground with a single respective strike just previously.

3) The way I remember it, Zeus blasted Hulk in an actual completely unprepared sucker-attack ambush. Then there was an issue switch where Hulk was up again (but that part is more fuzzy). Zeus boasted that he could destroy Hulk so easily, but that's all it was: boasting. He blasted a now prepared Hulk a few times before the fight with little effect. As shown in his fight with Galactus his punches are also no less powerful than his blasts. However, it definitely would have made a short fight if Zeus had not simply restricted himself to power-versus-power, and simply decided to teleported Hulk into outer space.

4) Zeus and the other Greek gods very much are gleefully mass-torturing egomaniac absolutely entitled warfare-glorifying Manipulative Bastard tyrannical petty sadists. Most sociopaths aren't nearly as extreme as they are. It is not a "common misconception" (as worded on the Uber Mensch page by an ideological self-admitted Lack of Empathy actual sociopath editor in a propaganda push), it is an independent very well-founded comparison.

I saw some really out there reactions of gleefully (orgiastic gorn-jerkoff sadism in extreme troll leet speak level) cheering for Zeus going Moral Event Horizon High Octane Nightmare Fuel Cold-Blooded Torture completely Disproportionate Retribution on Hulk. It is probably more common to do so simply because it doesn't happen often ("take him down a peg"), but it is the wrong character to do the beating, as it is literally more disproportionate than cheering for Hannibal Lecter cutting up an unruly baby.

5) They did play a major part in it actually. If Zom, Abomination, and the devil-Hulk had caught the aspect of Death for Mikaboshi he would have won before Hercules had time to be remade.

6) It has to do something with your own (above) and considerably more extreme disturbing, biased, and inaccurate, online reactions about Zeus and Hera being innocent and benevolent despite that Hulk's motivations were simply a mixture of benevolent self-sacrifice and genuinely mentally savaged tired desperation, whereas the other party has been presented as literally gleefully malevolent/deliberately calculated sadistic; in essence even worse versions of Muammar Gaddafi or any other seriously abusive and entitled torture-fetischist egomaniac mass-murdering "dicktator". Of course, then there are the charming wonderful personalities who do so exactly because they only identify with Complete Monster types...

In any case, the issue is more about that Hulk made a bad confused call, and should have asked Doctor Strange if he could find any solution or trustworthy entity that needed some work done in return.

7) Agreed, and removed.
seekquaze11
07:49:07 PM Apr 15th 2011
1. Like I stated before "some" is unclear. If Pak wanted to say only a "small part" he would have said so. The writer was deliberately ambiguous.

2. Like I stated before because it is Zeus anyone would assume he is very powerful especially to defeat the Hulk in such away. His power was also augmented at the time to an unknown degree. Galactus tends to be all over. In the story in question Surfer said Galactus was about to feed which commonly means Galactus was far from full power. Still, I've reworded it to try and accommodate us both.

3.. One could question how much of the lighting was actually a sucker punch. Hulk had already been attacked several times on his way up, was warned that Zeus would not take Hulk barging in well, and knows Zeus is a lighting god. Still, one could argue it is a sucker punch since the Hulk may not have seen Zeus so I'll leave it.

As for the boasts, as the scans in the links I posted before clearly show Hera states Zeus could vaporize the Hulk with ease and Zeus's previous attack backs that up. The Hulk does not disagree and his challenge of Zeus to a fist fight is taken as proof that that is the only way Hulk thinks he stands a chance.

Hulk was not blasted "a few more times." Could you please point me to a scan, page number, something to back that up? Zeus accepted the Hulk's terms. The entirety of the fight is in the scans except for one page where Zeus recovers from the Hulk's blow and throws a lighting bolt. However, the first page in the secon link shows a lightning bolt hitting the ground next to the Hulk and not the Hulk himself. So no more lighting hit the Hulk save for that in the issue previous.

4. That is more your personal opinion than anything based on the myths or the comics. Contrary to popular opinion, in neither the myths nor the Marvel comic versions did the gods sit around thinking "How am I going to make the lives of mortals as miserable as possible today?" The myths present many different sides of the gods some less benevolent than others. Some stories show the gods being complete jerks. Others have Zeus himself showing empathy with mortals and those he has hurt. Lack of such qualities are part of being a sociopath. However, since this is the comic versions were are talking about those are the ones we have to focus upon. And Zeus is not a sociopath in the comics. He had plenty of reasons to be irritated as the Hulk's intrusions. Hera I could see being a sociopath since we have never seen a more benevolent side to her. But it is different for Zeus. We have never really had enough characterization on the other Olympians to decide one way or another. Part of the problem is when writing gods you are essentially talking about a race of vastly different beings who naturally have a different outlook on life.

5. That is why I stated they aided in saving the universe, but Hercules and Cho are the ones who did the actually overall saving.

6. I never stated Zeus and Hera were innocent and benevolent. I have stated they are major jerks and often come across as major a-holes. I have stated that Marvel's version of Zeus had not traditionally been presented that way so it is inaccurate to call him a sociopath or to take one story and use it and it alone to define him. I also stated Zeus had some legitimate reasons for reacting the way he did. Zeus was leaving the Hulk alone until the Hulk broke into his house uninvited and began making demands. Hera was the one being a sadist and trying to drive Zeus to pursue them. If Zeus was the sadist like you describe he would have stopped Hulk from escaping. As for the torture, I agree that is extreme, but part of this is simple different values.

But again, one way or another what does Zeus being a sociopath or not have to do with whether or not it was a curb stomp battle? What does Hera have to do with it at all since she did not fight the Hulk?

Fighteer
moderator
09:06:05 PM Apr 15th 2011
<Mod Warning> We want our examples kept short and to the point. Don't insert all this tangential information. I trimmed the two contentious ones down a bit. They'd better stay that way.
keyboarder
topic
05:31:32 PM Feb 22nd 2011
Should the Anti-hero trope be moved to YMMV? Some designations seem debatable, but since it's usually a non-subjective trope, I wasn't sure on how much should be moved.
ChrisX
topic
07:26:59 AM Jan 15th 2011
Guys, we really need to make this a Self-Demonstrating Article. We got a Hulk game review as if written by Hulk himself in Hulk Speak. Let's have Hulk just Hulk Speak on his article!
antva
10:11:41 AM Jan 15th 2011
edited by antva
No, beyond that it would destroy this article, ironically the Hulk extremely seldomly actually speaks in Hulk Speak, even the childlike version isn't as excessive as the meme goes, and how exactly would we be able to convey any more complex sentences.

You could create an alternate page in this style though, possibly as a sub-section linked at the top (like the YMMV page), just be sure to keep the old one as well.
MatthewTheRaven
10:17:43 AM Jan 15th 2011
Do the Laconic entry that way.
ChrisX
04:23:32 PM Jan 26th 2011
Agreed. Could work like the BRIAN BLESSED page.
cclosina
topic
05:40:51 PM Jan 4th 2011
edited by cclosina
Joe Fixit is a Villain Protagonist, while the master is a Villain Antagonist.
keyboarder
07:51:53 PM Jan 4th 2011
I think it's best if we set his morality alignment into YMMV since it's caused such an edit war.
cclospina
11:32:40 AM Jan 6th 2011
For what reason?, Savage Hulk is definetely Chaotic while Joe Fixit anmd the Maestro is Definetely Evil.
KingZeal
12:32:24 PM Jan 6th 2011
Alignment tropes are YMMV, anyway, so the point is rather moot.
antvasima2
03:24:59 AM Jan 7th 2011
edited by antvasima2
Well, the thing is that I have yet to see a solid argument why Joe Fixit is any worse than Marv, who cclospina lauded as only a type IV. Joe Fixit is a villain who almost exclusively fights other villain, much like a very large part of type IV or V. Heck, The Darkness is a much much more extreme, sadistic, and ruthless gangster than Fixit ever was. Then again, I'm mostly using memory of the Dale Keown era/later development of the character for evaluation.

Basically I already inserted a major Your Mileage May Vary Base Breaker definition, so I already took the compromise into account, and combined with cclospina censoring various other pages to only allow for her own personal viewpoint, without me yet having read any rational case for why he should be singled out, I just don't see this as a remotely matter-of-fact evenhanded treatment. Villain Protagonist is a big part of type V for that matter, so there is no inherent conflict.

And it isn't like I haven't tried to help her out elsewhere. I went along with assisting her in condemning hentai rape-glorifications for example, and I did very much did "morally condemn" Fixit as well, I simply don't see why the other antiheroes (who have at least as extreme Sicilian vendetta mafia methods) are supposed to be better/attempt to be more Literal-Minded consequent in my evaluations.
cclospina
04:21:18 PM Jan 7th 2011
edited by cclosina
Type of Marv was edited by Kersey475
antvasima
11:53:11 AM Jan 10th 2011
edited by antvasima
Well, I thought that you agreed with it, as you didn't change it back during your other modifications, whereas you made a point of it here, but if that's not the case I apologise.
Ithilgore
topic
06:02:33 PM May 28th 2010
Seems like we do not have an article for either live action film adaption, should one be made?
KamenRiderOokalf
03:40:29 PM Jun 11th 2010
There actualy is one for the most recent film. But yeah, it might be a good idea to talk about the other one.
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