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KuroMaboroshi
topic
02:26:46 AM Jul 22nd 2014
edited by 46.244.136.134
This page claims the version of events that the end of Episode 7 shows is the "true" one. Is there actually any hard evidence towards that in the Sound Novel? I remember it being set up as another theory, that is implied to have a very strong following in the real world, but not as the definite answer to the solution. Refering to the manga as "proof" seems doubtful to me at best, since in giving a definite answer to the mystery, it outright contradicts one of the main points that the Sound Novel was trying to make. As an adaption, how much it reflects Ryukishi's acutual intentions is questionable, too.

Is there any word of god on this that confirms that what the manga shows is correct? Otherwise I suggest we move that to YMMV or reword it as another theory.
Sigge
04:33:06 AM Jul 22nd 2014
edited by 90.224.20.180
As I understand it, while Ryukishi doesn't write the manga he does supervise it so I would consider it to be canon.
AquaRegia
10:18:06 AM Jul 22nd 2014
Wouldn't it just be better to say "in the manga, this, that and the other thing happen" for all applicable entries where that hasn't already been done than arbitrarily decide it's canon or move it elsewhere?
Sigge
11:44:48 AM Jul 22nd 2014
That would be OK with me
KuroMaboroshi
12:05:57 PM Jul 22nd 2014
edited by 46.244.136.134
Yeah, sounds good. Then everyone can decide themselfes whether to consider it canon or not.

Edit: And fixed, at least for this page. Will go through the other ones in time to see where else that mistake has been made.
Oecchi
topic
04:29:22 AM Aug 13th 2012
This isn't meant to offend anyone, but...should we really be adding examples relating to the "Rosatrice" theory? Even if it's a theory growing in popularity, it's really only a fan theory started by one person. It just seems like it should go on the WMG page if people really want to discuss it.
magnum12
09:37:12 AM Aug 14th 2012
edited by magnum12
I say keep it. The theory has some strong evidence that places it as the "third story" (i.e. the "Cat Box") that Our Confessions refers to (and believes that the common theory is the "second story"). This theory believes that Umineko is a true work of genius because the story is intrinsically designed as a three layered story in which how you interpret the events and clues leads you to a certain layer of the story. i.e. The story is intentionally set up so how you interpret the story can lead you down the path of the Shkannontrice theory OR the Rosatrice theory via extensive usage of double-edged metaphors and symbolism, which is most apparent in Will's solutions. The Rosatrice theory believes that "The Cat Box" is possible to decipher within the events of the game. As of now, this theory is actually of the strongest ones when it comes to the 3rd story/cat box.

The true beauty of this theory comes to light when looking at it via Occam's Razor (do look it up as its a great read). Followers of the Shkannontrice and Rosatrice theories actually agree on a lot of key points of the story. The disagreements are actually about the interpretation. Split personalities, a love war, and the body incapable of love are critical points.
Oecchi
08:53:59 AM Aug 15th 2012
I hate to say it, but no matter how brilliant this theory is, it's still just a fan theory and has no canon evidence to back it up, only interpretation. Just because more and more people agree with it doesn't make it a legitimate theory within canon. Even if you don't like the Shkanontrice theory, Ryukishi has been hinting at it repeatedly throughout the series and even after it's ended. It has far more canon support than the Rosatrice theory does. We really should be putting examples that are shown in canon as opposed to what's fanon.

I'm not saying that nobody should ever discuss it on this site; after all, that's what Ryukishi wants us to do. I just don't think putting tropes for it on the main pages when it's not canon and only a fan theory is appropriate.
magnum12
05:20:52 PM Aug 16th 2012
edited by magnum12
Actually there's plenty of evidence in game to support the theory.

1. We get clues that Rosa has a split personality (Disassociative Personality Disorder) as early as the 1st and 2nd games, indicating an underlying mental instability (she is in fact the most screwed up person on the island due to her having one of the nastiest pasts).

2. We get clues that George is a Yandere in the 4th and 6th game, giving us a motive for George as the culprit. The 4th game also shows that he has martial arts training, making him the most likely culprits in CQC murders.

3. Eva's journal, which is confirmed to have the truth. The contents of that truth are indeed knowable. Since Eva hates Shannon, if Shkannontrice is the culprit, then WHY does Eva keep the truth of the murders hidden and allow herself to be believed to be the culprit even on her death bed. Major plot hole there. It makes more sense to cover up that truth if Eva had a more personal attachment i.e George is one of the culprits.

4. Maria's connections to Beatrice. If Beatrice is Shannon, what is staying her hand from personally murdering Maria, especially in the parlor in the 1st game? Maria is ALWAYS one of the last casualties in games where Beatrice is in control. In addition, she tends to die almost IMMEDIATELY after Rosa dies in games where Beatrice is not in control. There's also Maria's comments about the "white witch" and "black witch" in Rosa along with Maria's own larval split personality issues. As seen in the 7th game, Maria can recognize "Beatrice" by how she acts and in fact is the only person to have met Beatrice outside the island (4th game). Yes this scene is from the magical perspective, there is some important symbolic meaning in all of this. Rosa always tries to make up with Maria shortly after doing something bad to her, and on the island, "Beatrice" shows up shorty after Maria is abused. In the case of the Sakutaro incident, what this represents is Rosa "breaking the rules" regarding Beatrice because she's realized that she's truly crossed a line that should never have been crossed and right now "Beatrice" is the only person that will be able to get through to Maria.

5. Beatrice being obscessed with the rules (seen in the meta world and in the 6th game). It's interesting that Rosa has aspects of this in her as well, showing itself in the 5th game when she was getting pissed when the siblings weren't honoring the rules of the witch's epitaph. In addition, since Shannon knows the legend of Beatrice very well, if she is indeed the culprit, then in the 3rd game, Shkannontrice is BREAKING HER OWN RULES, which is inconsistent with the character of Beatrice.

6. Erika actually sees Shannon and Kanon at the same time in the 5th game.

7. "Yasu" supposedly falling down a cliff as an infant and suffering mere reproductive harm is medically impossible. I should know, my background is in biological studies. Upon the slim chance that "Yasu" would even survive (those odds are infinitely small at best), that infant would have broken bones everywhere (even being generous this does not take the especially vunreble "fontenel" region at the top of an infant's skull into account), likely brain damage, resulting in someone who is pretty much permanately disabled.
Oecchi
08:19:35 AM Aug 17th 2012
I don't intend to get into a huge argument over whose theory is better, and I'm not saying your arguments aren't valid, but you can still easily interpret any of this evidence in favour of Yasu (or Shkanontrice).

1. While it's very likely that Rosa is mentally unstable, whether or not she really has DPD is debatable. (It's clearly shown that Yasu does not have DPD, since she is fully aware of what she's doing and that she's merely acting out the parts of these "characters" she's created. Plus, actual split personalities can't talk to one another). Since it's stated that Maria tends to see someone as having become a completely different person altogether when they act any differently from their usual selves, she can easily see Rosa's rages as her becoming the "Black Witch" as well as Yasu suddenly acting as Beatrice as a witch appearing from nowhere.

2. Personally, I don't see George as a yandere. Rather, I think he has a sense of entitlement that he claims to have outgrown in the past, but hasn't completely. And as for knowing martial arts, by that logic you could easily say that Eva is the culprit for having martial arts training, or that Rudolf is the culprit because he's the best at handling guns. Superior combat skills do not necessarily mean they're the culprit.

3. I agree that the contents of Eva's journal can be knowable. But I think you're also forgetting that Eva kept the true identity of the culprit a secret not only for her own sake, but for Ange's. Many people theorize that what was shown to Ange and Lion in the EP 7 Tea Party was what really happened (i.e Kyrie and Rudolf did it). Ange's extreme reaction upon finally reading Eva's journal only goes further to reinforce this. I doubt she would have shown such despair if it was George who killed everyone, since while Eva had a strong connection to George (being...well, his mother), Ange did not.

4. It's undeniable that Maria has a strong bond with Beatrice, whatever that may truly mean outside of all the symbolism. While this part could go either way, from the Yasu standpoint you could see this as Maria being the few real friends she had, and naturally she would keep close tabs on her while on the island. As for meeting Beatrice outside the island, Maria has just as much of an active imagination as Beatrice does (something that they're shown to have in common), so you could say that Maria simply imagined her when not on the island.

5. I'm...going to be honest here and say you're really reaching on this part. Just because two different characters think rules are important doesn't mean they must be the same person. Plus, in your previous statement you said that Rosa-as-Beatrice would be willing to break her own rules for Maria, so why shouldn't Yasu break her own rules?

6. That's true, but it's one of the very few times Shannon and Kanon are seen at the same time at all by someone who isn't Genji or Kumasawa. Personally I'd chalk this up to Erika being so confident in her theories and the number of people on the island by that point that she believes Shannon and Kanon are separate people, but your mileage may vary on that.

7. While it's heavily implied but not outright stated that Yasu has some kind of reproductive damage, it doesn't go into detail about the extent of her injuries, just that she had them, so one can still theorize how badly she was hurt and where and how long it took for her to recover. It's also stated in canon that Yasu's chances of survival were in fact very slim in the first place; Nanjo and Genji were both surprised that she lived at all.

And this last point comes to my biggest problem with this theory: you're basically implying that because Yasu's situation isn't completely realistic, it can easily be written off as not being true. As powerful a story as Umineko can be, it's still fiction and not everything in the story accurately reflects real life. (Touhou references in a story that takes place in the 80s is probably an easy indicator of that.) While you're free to interpret this series as you see fit, you're still writing off a whole part of it as completely irrelevant to the entire series itself. You claim that this theory allows for both the Shkanontrice theory and the Rosatrice theory to work, but you're still dismissing an important part of the series as unimportant in order to support the latter. Whether or not Yasu really does have split personalities, her connection to Beatrice is undeniable and it gives a lot of insight into Beatrice herself and how she feels towards Battler. Even if you don't agree with the Shkanontrice theory, you can't simply write off the existence of a character who has such a strong connection to Beatrice, a very prominent character in the series.

That is why I maintain that the Rosatrice theory, while it does have some interesting points, is purely fanon at the point and not canon.
magnum12
04:50:04 PM Aug 17th 2012
edited by magnum12
Yasu not being a real, literal person on the island doesn't deny her all important connection to Beatrice. The Rosatrice theory contends that Yasu exists and is indeed intimately connected to Beatrice, but Yasu herself doesn't literately exist. Yasu is the persona rather than the body. The Yasu persona was born out of Rosa's guilt over her involvement in Beatrice II's death and became "Beatrice" at a later time. This is what I mean by the term "larval state". The Rosatrice theory contends that the death of Beatrice II is Rosa's Start of Darkness and that the term "furniture" represents low social status. Its very odd that the only people that use the word "furniture" are the servants, Beatrice, and Rosa. Chick Beatrice symbolizes Rosa's original personality before "her fall". This theory about Chick Beatrice is supported by some of Battler's statements in which his father said that Rosa Used to Be a Sweet Kid.

Rosa's motive in the mass murders is to 1. attempt to ressurect Beatrice II through the witche's epitaph and 2. she wants to be loved and understood. In her screwed up head, she believes that enacting the epitaph litereately will restore everything that was lost. Having been bullied by her siblings, ditched by her dead beat husband, having a difficult time finding and keeping a boyfriend, stuck as a single mother, and beliving herself to be unworthy of her father's love over the death of Beatrice II, it can be safe to say that Rosa's life lacks love (of any kind under The Four Loves). Despite her split personality treatment of Maria (most likely over her screwed up life), I'm pretty certain that Rosa legitimately loves Maria and probably uses the "Beatrice" persona to atone for the bad things she does to Maria. This atonement is also a motive for why Rosa would do an emergency breakage of the rules of Beatrice. The epitaph is something that is more absolute in the rules context, since "Beatrice" plays fair.

How does this relate to Battler and the "Love Narrative" that's so important to Umineko. Quite a lot actually, but Rosa does NOT desire Eros (romantic love) from Battler. She seeks understanding/unconditional love (Agape) and Storge (familial love) from him. Something interesting that shows up is that the only people who are upset about Battler spliting off on his own are Shannon and Rosa (who says something about how she's going to miss him with a rather sad expression on her face). Everyone else believes that this is a great growth opprutunity for him or something else positive. The Rosatrice theory believes that the assumed definition of love (Eros) is actually part of the trap R7 set for us in the Core arcs (he even said he was going to set an elaborate trap that he expected most of the fan base to fall for in an interview before the 5th game). The cheese puzzle may be a warning about assumed definitions.

As for Eva's journal, the Rosatrice Theory believes that the cover up as it relates to Ange is related to Ange's hopes regarding Battler's fate. Eva wants Ange to be able to hope that one day Battler will come back. Rudolf's suspicious, shady character is likely the same ploy R7 used with the Sonozaki family. In essence, a Red Herring. Eva's motive for covering up the culprit and her willingness to allow others to believe she was the culprit makes the most sense if it was indeed George who was a culprit.

Speaking of George, what I'm refering to in regards to red flags regarding him being a yandere is his response to the sacrifice test. His option of kill everyone else reflects a willingness to destroy anyone who gets in the way of his relationship with Shannon, which is a trademark trait of a Yandere (possessive subtype I believe). In regards to martial arts training, it actually serves as an alternate explaination to the 4th-6th twilight of the 2nd game. Something about the "heavy object suicide" explaination for Shannon doesn't seem right. If her death was a suicide, why is the penetration of the stake so low and why is there no exit wound in Shannon's head. Even with a pistol, close range wounds (as per your typical suicide) are much more gruesome than long range ballistics wounds, with a large exit wound being certain. In fact, in the 4th game, there is indeed an exit wound in the back of Shannon's head, which supports both her commiting suicide and someone else killing her. Martial arts training actually allows the user much greater access to a human's "reserve strength". The low penetration of the stake suggests the notion that the stake itself was the weapon. Even if the stake is a paper weight (5th game), that elevated access to reserve strength can make that stake much more dangerous than in the hands of an ordinary person. The room being the mess that it is indicates a struggle, with George accidentally killing Shannon in a rage and Shannon shooting George with a pistol in self defense. The pistol most likely did not kill George instantly (he bled out). Realizing what he had done, he most likely hid the pistol and placed the stake in his wound so no one would blame Shannon. Gohda was most likely killed first.
Oecchi
12:17:29 PM Aug 18th 2012
Personally, this theory still makes very little sense to me. I don't see why Rosa would want familial acceptance from Battler, of all people. If she's Beatrice that makes it even more problematic, since Beatrice is pretty obviously attracted to Battler in the romantic sense. And if Yasu is just meant to be Rosa's persona and purely symbolic, then that doesn't really explain Natsuhi's issues with fertility and the man from 19 years ago coming back to taunt her in EP5. Does that mean Rosa's also masquerading as Natsuhi's lost child?

That said, even though I'm not really convinced by this theory, it's not for me to judge what answers people find for themselves by reading Umineko. Ryukishi did leave certain things open for interpretation for that purpose, after all. However, I still maintain that fan theories like this are still fan theories, and if everyone insisted that all their theories were canon then there would be far more examples on the main pages than there are now.
magnum12
06:48:59 PM Aug 20th 2012
In regards to the man from 19 years ago, that would be George who most likely heard about the incident from Rosa and used it as part of the plot in EP 5.

Dang it, there used to be a link to an actual page of the manga that directly shows Erika in the same room as Shannon and Kanon. This combined with the chain of red statements from Lambadelta says that there are 18 people in EP 5. Erika only adds +1 to the previous amount of people in previous games and that unmodified number is the same as in previous games (17). In addition, there is a barrage of red statements that uses the term "human" and "person" interchangably. This means that human=person. Since it is inherently impossible for a "persona" to be a human since they don't have a physical body, "persona" cannot be used interchangebly with "person" since human and person are the same thing, which means that Shannon and Kanon cannot be the same person. Besides, if person and persona were the same thing, wouldn't that mean that there are 18 people on the island (counting the Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice personas seperately) instead of 17?
Aquillion
08:17:13 PM Jul 3rd 2014
edited by 74.72.46.6
Erika never sees Shannon or Kanon at the same time at any point; this is one of the most commonly-repeated myths by people trying to peddle fanfics about how clearly the story is actually all about their favorite character or whatever. What happens is that the images show them at the same time, because while Erika is the detective, the story isn't actually being told from her point of view (just like we see scenes of fantasy where she isn't present, we can be shown 'false' things where she's present — she just can't acknowledge it, because that means that the images simply don't reflect what she's seeing.)

Specifically, rereading the section of EP 5 in question again in light of EP 7 makes it obvious that the 'Shannon' who is shown as present is just her presence in Sayo's mind, and that Sayo is posing solely as Kanon in that scene from Erika's perspective — Erika specifically does not address Shannon or respond to anything she says at any point, and on one occasion Kanon repeats something that Shannon said (in other words, Sayo says something that occurred to him via his persona as Shannon) and only at that point does Erika hear it.

This is explained here. Erika's inability to see Kanon and Shannon at the same time is actually very obvious if you reread EP 5 knowing they're the same person, and serves as an important clue for people who didn't pick it up earlier.

(Of course, the author also implicitly confirmed that Kanon and Shannon are the same person, and explicitly confirmed that Sayo is the killer, in an interview here: Answer to the Golden Witch.)
Oecchi
topic
07:58:50 AM Jun 8th 2012
...how did half the page get deleted?
Telcontar
moderator
01:02:52 PM Jun 8th 2012
Almost certainly connection problems — the person who did it is a good troper and all. I've asked for a system revert.
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