Keep in mind, though. That it was Eirin who STARTED the rumors. It's specifically mentioned in Cage in Lunatic Runagate that as soon as Reisen II arrived, Eirin had Reisen I telepathically asking the moon rabbits on the moon if there were any rumors about a rebellion. Eirin even comments that Reisen I can't talk to Reisen II, or know whether there are rumors or not.

This was specifically to CAUSE the rumors. So that she could "protect" Yorihime from the rumors of rebellion that she created. (Thus securing that the Moon wouldn't hunt them any more.) We have two different plans here, Yukari's for the lulz, and Eirin figured out enough to get involved and achieve her own goals.

Oh, yea, I forgot about that part. I was just addressing the "So Yea" reference, but I'm probably misinterpretting what that was meant to infer, as well.

(Ultra-late answer, but...) At this point, it's approaching "no". Touhou Wiki has demoted her to "nameless midboss fairy". It's true we DO have a (technically) nameless midboss fairy on the list (Daiyousei), and we have a nameless giant catfish (which we call Namazu, but Touhou Wiki doesn't acknowledge that except as a redirect and a fun fact), but there's nothing particularly interesting or unusual about this nameless fairy, and it's not likely to work its way into the fanon like Daiyousei has. Heck, most of us probably wouldn't have been aware of it were it not mentioned here and in create.swf.

Why not? Giant Robots are characters too.

I'd say not. It's not actually sentient, playable, fightable, or possessing of either dialogue or fanon. Basically, it's not really a character.

Does Touhou have a Trivia Page? Put Hisoutensoku there then.

Hisoutensoku's about as much a character as the dancing man balloon outside a car dealership is a member of its marketing staff.

The most I can tell from picking around Google for a few minutes is that it's a X-Men parody involving Chen that was released at this year's Reitaisai. It's on the "Potential Comics" list on Touhou Wiki, and following links from there resulted in a translated copy.

From the cover (haven't gotten around to reading it), it looks like "Chen = Wolverine". I'm not going to argue the "badass" part, but given that Google only returned a few hits that specifically mentioned the comic (Googling "X-Chen" tended to turn up a lot more "Ran X Chen" hits), at least on the first three or four pages of hits, I'm at the moment doubtful about the "memetic" part.

Would it help if the titles were in a smaller font?

I'm referring here specifically to the extra titles for Reimu, Mima, Marisa, and Alice. Just making them smaller wouldn't help with the balance.

I'm going to vote "no". As you point out, it'd throw off the balance, since some characters would have half a dozen titles (Marisa, Reimu, Remilia, Yukari, etc.) and others would still have one or none. If people REALLY want to let everyone know all the other titles, just put a link to the titles page on the wiki.

We might want to spend some time deciding how to choose them, since there have been a lot of edits over this from a lot of people. Right now there are still/again titles on the page that aren't the most common one used for the character. (Jeez, going by the wiki page, "Ordinary Magician" is the most consistently used title in the whole series.) Personally, I'd also think that it's better to lean away from StB and DS titles when there's an alternative, since they seem to have been actually made up by Aya and Hatate as opposed to the "objective" titles which apparently sprang from the aether; also that it may be good to consider any that are, as far as anyone can determine, well-known or notable to the fans (like I remember "Super Youkai Warhead" and "Hell's Traffic Accident" both got a lot of jokes and fanart when they popped up).

Well, it's not helping matters that it's currently plastered on a "Touhou influences" page on the wiki. Pardon me for venting, but that's one of the things I hate about that wiki: people just post whatever, and even if it WERE to come from ZUN's mouth, they never cite the interview or whatever. So there's no way of telling if that page is true or just pure speculation.

It's one thing to say that Yue Ayase is an expy of Patchy, since they are VERY similar characters, and Akamatsu even had Yue dress up as Patchy in one chapter. But, as you pointed out, the only similarities between Reimu and Sayo/Pocky are that they are miko in shooting games — and the second part of that wasn't even true of Highly Responsive to Prayers. And the game premise of P&R (miko fights supernatural creatures from Japanese folklore) isn't particulary unique, so I don't see much of a case for saying that Touhou as a whole took that aspect (further making the similarity between them seem coincidental).

I'm not going to come out and say, "No, it's pure coincidence, they're not expies", but, despite the fact that There Is No Such Thing As Notability, this is really one of those cases where I'd really like some source to confirm that it was really ZUN's intention to emulate Sayo/Pocky.

I never really liked alphes' style to begin with, so I say we just go for the best images that clearly illustrate the character.

I don't know if people are going to notice this post, or if we should start a new topic about it. There's been talk in the Alternate Character Compendium forum thread about reverting back to the older character portraits on some characters. Personally, I'd prefer it if we went back to the alphes-style portraits for Hina, Kanako and Reisen II at least.

What I saw was more of a general agreement that a lot of the changes weren't for the better, not necessarily talk of reverting.

I'm not really certain how to best handle this, since the opening of the standards resulted in a minor edit war. We'd probably need a forum topic to handle it well.

I would like fewer Michii Yuuki images, though. Ideally 100% fewer.

Michii Yuuki's art is OK if it's in the character's nature to look cute. I was the first person to upload a Michii Yuuki drawing to the page because I couldn't find any better pictures of Chiyuri. I don't have a problem with using his artwork for the Aki sisters either. However, I wouldn't mind seeing more people use the Reitaisai 7 Picture Gathering as a source for portraits. It's easy to search through by entering "[character_name] pool:1250" into Danbooru's search box.

Every Touhou character is supposed to look cute, that is how ZUN designs them. Not much of an argument in a series where fanon routinely overwrites canon, I know. Complaining About Artists You Don't Like aside, shouldn't we strive for something like stylistic consistency, if at all possible?

As long as we judge the pictures by purely subjective standards, there can never be an agreement on which are the most suitable. The one objective criteria I can think of is how much the portrait matches canon, which is how I pick the ones I upload here - eye color, hair color, clothing details down to the last frill, character-associated accessories (the more the better), pose, background, etc. Of course with Touhou even after the filtering, you still usually end up with several options to choose from and it once again boils down to personal preference.

Michii Yuuki's art just happenes to match the canon portraits well for many characters and there was already some on the page, so I figured why not add more of the same. While I'm all for replacing the drawings with objectively better ones, and I do not ask anyone to like the same things as me, I'd like to point out the majority of the new images from the last batch are less in line with ZUN's versions of the characters than the old ones.

(I realize this topic is rather old now, buuuuut: )

For characters that don't have art from the fighting games, why can't we just use their illustrations from The Grimoire of Marisa? (I think they're...Mokou, Kaguya, Eirin, Satori, Kanako, Shikieiki, Koishi & Flandre)

For instance, I think Flan's and Eirin's would work nicely.

You can still see it occasionally, particularly if you're looking at older stuff. It should probably mentioned somewhere, though not as a Woolseyism.

It's mentioned on the meme page and indirectly mentioned on the Japanese Pronouns page, and that's really more than it deserves.

On a related Wiki gripe (one that really applies to TV Tropes as a whole, not just this page, but it's a problem today), could people please use the "preview" button BEFORE posting their changes? The "page history" list today was flooded with one person who apparently couldn't decide on the wording of their edit, so they kept submitting it and then going back in and changing it again. It's really annoying to have to scroll through all that.

Sorry about that, I thought I was keeping to all the image uploading restrictions. In my defense, you did say to go for the best possible images and editing low-res pics in JPG sometimes makes them grainy, but if page size is such a concern, I guess I can live with that. Just wish someone had told me that before I replaced most of the gallery, but whatever.

Dragon? Something from Wild and Horned Hermit, I guess?

The dragon.

-__- Just because ZUN finally put a hermit into the series... We'll make the entry when there's an actual character to back it up.

Besides, we already have dragon: Meiling.

I don't see how the "almost part of canon" argument works; we don't have entries for the fan-characters either.

And everybody shows up in Nekokayou, including a good number of other non-canon characters.

It was discussed previously that Rin Satsuki wasn't canon at all, but it would be like saying she is a fan character, which isn't really true; again, she was created by ZUN and found in E So D's code and a Comiket ad for the same game. Much more notable than fan characters, especially if the article intends to have a description of every single character that appears in the games and other official works. Quite a few fans include Rin Satsuki as part of Touhou because she partially showed up in E So D, so therefore she should be listed.

And, if you had a Fanon section for well-known Touhou fan characters, I don't think Rin Satsuki could fit in there. Because she's not a fan-created character.

Rin Satsuki was actually a major character for one arc in Nekokayou.

Also, the article has speculative pictures of characters who haven't actually been drawn, like Myouren Hijiri and Layla Prismriver, so these depictions are not canon. Shouldn't they not be included either?

She's not canon. Being created by ZUN doesn't make her canon, since she never actually appeared. We're not even certain that the name and design belong to the same character.

"Quite a few"? The vast majority of fans aren't aware of who she is(n't).

We do not have a fanon section. We are not likely to create one either. Stop bringing it up.

So was Meimu. That doesn't really matter.

...Probably not, but that's a seperate discussion.

PC 98 characters are also probably not canon anymore, but they're still recognized. That aside, I still don't think Characters/Touhou is complete without an entry on Rin Satsuki, in the interest of it being an informative article.

As for the name and design not belonging to the same character, that could be the case, but it does seem like another case of the fans giving an unnamed character a name, except from a different source. Which might be just as well.

Touhou wiki readers are likely to have heard of her, at the very least, having stumbled onto the article about her. Also, unlike you, I see many people having heard of her. Only really those who have a large enough involvement in Touhou, but still.

I am not saying you have a fanon section, nor asking you to include fan characters, nor asking you to create a Fanon/Touhou. Anyone could do the latter, however, as this is a wiki, particularly one with There Is No Such Thing As Notability. I don't really care, though. I am merely stating that she is a special case, and that she would not fit under the classification of "fan character", because some people will inevitably bring up the point of her being "just like fan characters". On the other hand, what we assume about her IS fanon...

My point of her being put in some fanworks still stands.

And finally, I should say that there was a previous discussion about her on this thread a while ago; it is now archived. I'm bringing this topic up again because I have my own points to state. The previous discussion is also why I kept mentioning fan characters.

Edit: I just stumbled onto this: | http://www.spriters-resource.com/pc_computer/touhou6/rinsatsuki.png◊

Seems more likely to me that Rin Satsuki looks like the character in the circle cut, but the sprites could actually be an older version of Rumia.

The purpose of the character sheet it primarily to list tropes related to characters, and secondarily to help fans keep track of who is who. The only trope related to Rin is Dummied Out, and she doesn't really show up often enough (seriously, I see HRtP characters more often) for keeping track of her to be a major worry.

I suppose. The wiki article had been useful for finding out who is who, especially when I started enjoying Touhou works and some of them had a particularly large amount of Touhou characters. (Touhou Mother for example.) I just think Rin Satsuki will start to be mentioned more often, but, of course, that will be quite a bit later. There are certainly a few obsessive fans of her, however.

Not just you. Though you'd need an exceptionally wide monitor for it to be more than a minor problem.

Okay, now the question is how it started without me changing any browser or display settings? It isn't happening on any other character sheet I've checked, so maybe this page's sheer size broke the formatting, kinda like what happened to the Negima character sheet. Don't we have some other kind of markup for forcing breaks between text and picture, because it's really annoying when you get to the Mo F folder.

...Oh dear. Yamame/Kisume and the Prismrivers cause problems as well. I don't know enough to help, sadly.

Dug a little deeper and it actually is a site-wide issue with the "quoteright" formatting, which for whatever reason is now ignoring things like lines and headers entirely. The solution is to put the [[<<]] tag before the element you don't want the picture to overlap.

Okay... this is officially weird. It worked just fine on the page preview and it even registered in the history but the [[<<]] tag somehow gets deleted when you save the changes. The [[hardline]] tag, which is supposed to do the same thing stays, but doesn't work. I tried editing another page that had preexisting [[<<]] tags and they disappeared without registering in the history and screwed the page up, which probably means this page had them too until yesterday. So, basically, I'm completely stumped. Any ideas?

This is the part where you make a thread in wiki talk or tech wishlist about the problem.

Or we're just screwed.

Going to have to come up with a lot of tropes for the minor characters, it looks like.

This sucks. We can always move them back to the left side and separate the character description from the examples with a line, like most character sheets do. Even though that leaves more empty space. Can't someone fixw the code so images don't overlap bullet points, how hard can that be? Also starting each section with the picture instead of the title and name would help somewhat.

Played around with the formatting a bit and as far as can tell from my monitor, they should all look more or less fine now. Had to cheat a little and add empty lines in a few cases, so it's not a perfect solution, but I think it's a good compromise in terms of visual presentation.

Not quite perfect, but looks a lot better now.

It is used on other pages. Not the preferred style, but it's allowed.

Feel free to change it, though.

I'm about halfway done now and just wanted to share some thoughts.

<thoughts> Damn you, ZUN! What in the Hell of Blazing Fires could you possibly need a 100+ lolis in one friggin' series for? I'm so gonna demand some kind of cookie when this is over! And wouldn't you know it, I can edit things with my old account, now that I already made another one. How much longer is this Imperishable Night folder anyway? Finally done, time to save this and... nononononono, don't you dare crash on me right now, you lousy peace of—AAAAAARGH! *keyboard smashing time* </thoughts>

I think I'll go cry pass out now. Will probably try this again tomorrow when I've regained my will to live.

Finally finished with the whole thing. Fixed the example indentation as well, while I was at it. (Curse my OCD tendencies!) Anyone up for moving the subjective tropes to the YMMV page?

That applies to character sheets?

Never thought about it, but it probably should. Especially when the character sheet happens to be ten times longer than the main page, as is the case here.

Someone already moved the subjective tropes off of the main page (and were asking about doing something to the main page on the character sheet's discussion?).

Please don't move them off of the character sheet. I can't imagine the result being anything but horribly messy.

That was me again. While I can't find any official confirmation for this, I'd argue that a character sheet as a direct extension of the work page should have the same standards applied to it (which was the reason I went through that whole reformatting exercise in the first place). After all, if a work page without a character sheet has character specific subjective examples, we're supposed to move those to a YMMV page as well.

I'm not going to touch the page for now, if only because the list of what tropes are considered "subjective enough" isn't complete yet (and probably won't be for a while, considering the recent shift in priorities), but I don't think it's a bad idea in the long run. At the very least it will cut down on all the natter, thread mode responses and edit wars and we can all agree that is a good thing, right?

And another thing.

The ultimate Touhou game, play as Reimu and fight your way through EVERY SINGLE STINKING CHARACTER. Have fun~.

PC-98/Windows/Print Works, or do they have to broken into smaller chunks than that?

Less than 500000 characters each. We're at 615498  ^*

^{Or so the list reads. Copying the source into a text editor gave me a count of 254127}

now, and the Windows characters are about 65% of the page  ^*

^{169361 by my count}

, more if we wanted to keep the characters that made the jump to Windows on the page.

I'd make the split into the following categories:

• Characters/Touhou: Links to other pages. Reimu. Marisa.
• PC-98: Pretty self explanatory
• Embodiment of Scarlet Devil-Phantasmagoria of Flower View
• Mountain of Faith-current
• side-materials

The entire related works section is about the size of the average Windows game. They don't really need they're own page. Stick them at the end of one of the pages, or divide them by release date.

Might be worth putting Alice and Yuuka on the main page as well; a lot of people would look for them in the Windows game in which they appeared rather than the PC-98 one.

related works could probably stay on the main page, then. I didn't really realize how small they were.

How's the following for titles?

• Touhou
• TouhouPC98 (alternatively, could be "Touhou Classic", but I'm not sure that's appropriate for a section of the series which is less popular)
• TouhouWindowsTrilogy
• TouhouMountainOfFaithSeries

The last two could alternatively be "Windows One/Windows Two", I suppose.

If nobody objects (or would prefer to do it themselves), I'll make the move sometime tomorrow afternoon-ish (USA time)

I'd prefer Windows one and two. "Windows Trilogy" would be inaccurate, since we're including PoFV, and I don't think I've ever seen the MoF engine games referred to as the "Mountain of Faith series" before (and we're including two fighting games).

Windows One and Two it is, then. (Actually, probably Windows Series One and Two)

I see Fast Eddie has made the split for us. Do we still want to put Reimu, Marisa, Alice and Yuuka back on the main page? Should we put some kind of note indicating where they originated in the games in which they debuted?

We need a mod to unlock the Characters page. I'd like to change "Examples" to something else, and also add back the note about romanization.

Are we scrapping the idea of keeping the print works folders on the main page? Because I kinda prefer that to just a bare index. Not so sure about the big four though.

I don't think it really matters where they go, as long as we can tell people where to look. The page really needs a list of which works are in which subpage.

I don't like how bare the page looks now, either... it'd be nice if, as suggested, we could at least get Reimu and Marisa on there, since they're in virtually every game. Putting the print works on the front page would also be nice, as would noting what "Windows One" and "Windows Two" actually entail.

For now, I've added the note about romanization to all three of the subpages. I think we can keep them that way even if we do get the top page unlocked, since Spell My Name With An S occurs frequently in character profiles.

What do you mean "if we do get the page unlocked"? Is there any reason for it to stay locked? I already brought it up in two different threads, but the mods seem to be ignoring me.

Update: Finally unlocked, go crazy.

Should we move Reimu and Marisa to the top page? Just them, and not Yuuka or Alice?

That would just break the organisation we have now. I'd rather we kept them under their games of origin.

I say go for it. Even if it is never made official, the page already has plenty of fandom only examples.

The previous format was, in order:

1. Nearly a full screen of gumpf.
2. A list of links studded with PC98s, Phantasmagorical Flowers, Perfect Cherry Blossoms and other terms the reader may not know or care about.
3. The least important set of characters.

I can't do much about 2, but clarifying 1 and 3 is a step in the right direction.

1. Most of it is kind of important
2. If you don't know what those things mean, you're probably reading the article in part to find out. If you don't care what they mean, you probably shouldn't be here at all
3. The PC-98 characters are less important, barring the ones that crossed over to the Windows games. And even then Yuuka is pushing it

And, more to the point, I don't see why that was actually a problem

Most of the gumf is reproduced verbatim on the individual pages. And really needs to be edited down there too.

The important principle here is that character sheets exist for people who don't already know the minutia of the series, and that things that seem obvious or necessary to you are not obvious or necessary to people who just want to know what a Reimu is. They're our target audience.

Don't know what gumf is supposed to be, but people who don't know what's what can, oh I don't know, read the main article. You know, the one that 99% of new readers go through to get to this one. Also, we're not here to judge which character is or isn't "important", this isn't a popularity contest. The fact that the related works characters aren't as tropable is exactly why we decided they don't need a page all to themselves.

It's also bad wiki etiquette to split a page without discussing it first, like we did in the previous topic, especially when you ignore the decision reached in said discussion.

It's been a week and I still don't think the page looks any better than it did before. An index with just four entries that doesn't even fill my screen all the way seems like a waste of space to me. I'd much rather have it be the way it was before or at least reopen the discussion again. Anyone feel like adding anything.