Characters Persona Discussion

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07:10:43 AM Feb 1st 2014
Alright, about the recent Ayase edit warring: I admit, I am a bit biased, because the characters has really proven herself sour to me (to put it mildy), but I do think the original version of the Hidden Depths note bordered on character shilling. The comparison to Brown was unneeded and didn't provide anything (other than to say "Ayase seems annoying like Brown, but...") and the comment about her rejecting the Tower Guardians seems kinda pointless, as everyone rejects them. Ayase only has a central role in the rejection of Yuriko, but folks have pointed out that her lecture there reeks of hypocrisy and a lack of self-awareness. The version I settled on simply comments on what is stated in game, trying to leave out any bias one way or the other.

So yeah, before we continue fighting over it, I thought I'd share my position.
03:13:52 PM Feb 5th 2014
I'm talking about Ayase specifically, so what the other characters do is irrelevant. After being banned, I'd like to settle this and come out friendly at the end, but it's a subjective trope and I do think that you interpreting it differently is no reason to gut the entry. I think it was subtle how they handled Ayase's character in the story, yeah, she wasn't developed like we're used to, but she wasn't as immature as she seemed to begin with, which was what I was attempting to convey. As it is now, I feel as though you're gutting the trope I put to put it more in line with what you feel, and it's not necessary. Keyword being the version you settled on.

There was nothing wrong with the original trope. I'm taking it off completely until we can talk this out.
03:30:42 PM Feb 5th 2014
Actually, I was trying to specifically avoid trying to add personal bias. I kept it to just what was stated in game directly because trying to go deeper either way would just go into personal bias.

If what other character's do is irrelevant, then why the comparison with Brown? What did that add other than to imply "Brown sucks and Ayase doesn't"? Gut that, and that just leaves the mention of her being mature and her rejecting the Tower Guardians. The latter bit, again, isn't noteworthy because everyone does so, and Ayase only really has a major role in confronting Yuriko...which has a mess of problems in of itself considering what she says compared to her own character but that isn't here or there.

Also, allow me to digress for a bit, but her development wasn't "subtle". She says some rather heartlessly cruel or hypocritical things throughout the Towers then handwaves it away with "I didn't know I was hurting people, honest!". I know the SQQ is ultimately much shorter storywise than the SEBEC route and Ayase isn't really the focus (Yukino is, pretty much) but having someone act despicable and then have them just kinda say offhand "whoops, I was wrong there" doesn't really make for believable character development, subtle or otherwise.

But her development (or lack there of) isn't the point. The point is "is she mature enough for it to count as a hidden depth". The game says she is but I am not so sure. If I was to let my feelings and biases get in the way, I'd axe the entry outright, citing a violation of Show, Don't Tell.
05:49:28 PM Feb 5th 2014
I'm not implying Brown sucks and Ayase doesn't. The whole thing is about Ayase. I'm not here to discuss our separate interpretations of what Ayase went through, but that we saw things differently, and just because they differ doesn't mean you come in and change it to suit what you think is best. There's nothing wrong with what I wrote, it doesn't need to be changed.
08:07:08 PM Feb 5th 2014
edited by
Except I am not trying to talk about how we view the character. I am trying to talk about how your version of the description added cruft that doesn't add anything to the actual point of "Ayase is more mature than she looks" and instead just seems to be there to make her look better. There was no point in the Brown comparison other than to shill her in comparison to him, as you describe both as "annoying" but then explain why solely Ayase isn't (though you claim that wasn't your intention). There is no point in noting that she rejects all the tower guardians, as it doesn't reflect on her maturity either way, since 1.she isn't special or unique in this regard and 2.her specific rejection of Yuriko isn't very mature and instead comes off as hypocritical at worst and lacking in self awareness at best. That leaves the comment about her being stated as being mature...which is what is in my version of the comment.

So yeah. My thoughts on the character aside, your note needed to be changed because it contained a lot of off topic (or only questionably on topic) cruft.
10:35:01 PM Feb 5th 2014
Make her look better? I'm fully aware Ayase is a fictional character. I'm not here to talk her up, just identify how she coincides with the Hidden Depths trope. The point is about Ayase and exploring why she has those hidden depths, the comparison is there to highlight that. It's a literary device that you're skewing because you don't like it. You're laboring under some illusion that I'm supposed to fairly represent every single character in every trope. That's not the case. If your biggest problem is with the contrast to Brown, it's there for a reason. You see it as cruft, I see it as a part of the definition.

"she isn't special or unique in this regard" Dude, this does not matter. Ayase doesn't only exist in relation to other characters. Earlier you said that since Ayase is getting this trope, so should every other character. Go ahead and write one. That doesn't make this one less valid.

I'm just going to point out that we're obviously at an impasse. We're both too agitated over this to accept anything other than our versions of the trope. So what do you want to do from here?
01:19:20 AM Feb 6th 2014
OK, third party opinion here: "Comes off as" makes me think that that example relies on audience opinion. That is not OK for trope entries, so it needs to be rectified.
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