Discussion Characters / OverwatchOffense

Yes, we could do without those listed.

Dude, Where's My Respect? seems to apply, since his backstory is literally about his resentment toward Morrison for being picked as the commander and feeling that he received no acknowledgement for his deeds during the Omnic Crisis.

Except the post I linked explicitly says that Reyes didn't resent Morrison for being chosen as commander, and was even relieved that he didn't have to deal with the political side of OW. While there definitely was a falling-out between them that led to the whole Zurich ordeal, it appears it had nothing to do with Reyes feeling that he hadn't gotten the respect he deserved.

Jeff can say whatever he wants.

We know that Reyes being passed over for the promotion to commander is stated, In-Universe, to be the reason why the rift between the two started.

Another thing to remember is that, at one point, there was a massive overhaul in the planned story, which caused one animated project to be scrapped. If what Jeff says is true, then it's a new direction that contradicts what we've been flat out told in previous lore.

Keep in mind, Jeff Kaplan is the same person who said Mercy hiding for Rez was never their intention, despite Mercy's kit demonstration on the website explicitly showing her doing just that. We can't trust his word at face value.

Except that's an in-universe news article you're quoting, so possibly a case of of unreliable narrator. And the whole "Reyes is just a petty asshole that didn't take well to not being promoted" narrative might have been just a red herring. Or maybe there was indeed a retcon.

Plus I think him saying that Mercy hiding for rez wasn't their intention was just him trying to get away with what turned out to be a bad gameplay decision, and I don't see why he would lie about a lore point.

But if you think these tropes shouldn't be removed, then I won't remove them and we'll wait to see which version turns out to be the correct one.

Whether it's In-Universe or not isn't really what my point was getting at. What I'm saying is that all we can trope is what we're given, and if Word of Saint Paul (Kaplan isn't even a writer) conflicts with what's stated in canon, then we acknowledge the discrepancy, but both tropes are still in effect. It's heavily implied that Reyes was resentful towards Morrison for being appointed Strike Commander over him, and if what Kaplan says also turns out to be true, then we'll have either a Retcon or Revision.

I agree that we should do nothing and wait, though, because nothing he said has actually been shown in the work, and published work > Word Of Whatever.

I do feel like that Jeff's comments might be bit of a retcon or revision. Remember that the graphic novel was cancelled due of a narrative shift, meaning that some old role bits might not even apply.

Of course we are not absolutely sure if relation between Reyes and Morrison just got worse as Overwatch went on or what based on old and new info we have.

For what it's worth, I remember hearing some interview where someone mentioned that, originally, Reaper and Widow were just going to be these flat, nasty villains since their original designs were the "edgelord" and "femme fatale" hero fantasies, but that, as the story expanded post-release, they've gained some affection for them and started doing things to round them off and give them more depth. So the idea that some aspects of the story are in flux isn't completely unfounded to me. But I do that flux is what it's in, not nailed down either way.

...I mean, he's obviously black in his "human" skins, and his name is Gabriel Reyes.

Was that a passive-aggressive "Tumblr SJW" snipe?

Blackwatch Reyes and plenty of comics and side material show that Reaper is afro-latino.

Plus his name is Gabriel Reyes. It's pretty apparent he is latino.

Skin color alone shouldn't be used to determine heritage. He has no other evidence of being Afro-Latino, we really should wait and see if the writers confirm it, for now just Latino should be used.

And anyways, most of his features match with just being Metzino (what Americans think of when they hear Hispanic), he doesn't really have the hair or facial features of what we think of as "black". If he has any of that in him it's a small amount (maybe only really enough to make his skin fairly dark though it's still within pure Metzino range), I doubt he'd really go with the Afro-Latino label.

Although his Hand Cannon is mapped to his primary fire, it's not the most iconic part of his kit (or even in the top three). It's also a Short-Range Shotgun blast that's pretty different in both flavor and function from a more typical Kamehame Hadoken.

I'd call it a bit of a stretch.

Expy is a trope that suffers from chronic misuse and shoehorning, and so we're extra strict about new examples of it. To discuss the matter further, please join us at the Expy Cleanup thread: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13983140170A37263400&page=10

Well, she does move faster when she boosts into the air, but since she can't use it constantly or in any direction other than up you're probably right.

It doesn't apply for exactly the reasons you've stated. Just because we haven't heard stuff about a character's relatives doesn't mean they're "disappeared".

That's a drastic shoehorn. A MUF should, well, have an unusual mechanic. Being slightly different (especially considering all the characters play fairly differently) is a Square Peg Round Trope.

From the Mechanically Unusual Fighter description: "This character has bizarre mechanics going on compared to other fighters. ...Whatever it is, playing this character won't be anything like playing the others. Mastering these gimmicks is a major part of this character. ...The result of this weird control scheme can vary." (Emphasis mine.)

None of that applies to McCree. He has no bizarre mechanics, gimmicks, or weird control schemes. He puts his cursor over the enemy and then pulls the trigger to make them dead, same as anyone. If you want to argue that he fits better as a Defense hero than an Offense one, then sure, whatever, but that AT MOST makes him mildly mis-classified, still not mechanically unusual in the way this trope means.

The somersault is an instant reload, less of a mobile mechanic. If you play McCree, you know what I'm referring to. You can't just charge directly into combat or escape using it. At best, it'll only buy you some time. As compared to everyone else whose entire playset revolves around being highly mobile, this is extremely lacking. Also, I can do what you did too, as that supports what I'm saying as well.

"Maybe this character cannot jump but instead can float around. Maybe this character's crouching actually makes her taller."

This basic point is that it doesn't follow the particular theme of the rest of the characters. It means he does things different from them. McCree is an example of this, being that he is not mobile in the slightest.

Zarya is not mobile in slightest. Neither is Roadhog. Or Torbjorn. Or Mei. Or Ana.

Explain to me what makes McCree mechanically unique compared to the other heroes in the game. Not the heroes that Blizzard arbitrarily decided to slap the Offense label on— a label that has no mechanical effect whatsoever and is purely cosmetic, mind you— but the other heroes in the game.

It's not cosmetic — each hero serves their own purpose and fall under particular theme. All Offense heroes have a theme of being mobile, except McCree.

What mechanical effect does the Offense label have? Does the game limit you to only so many Offense heroes per team? Does it only allow you to pick them on certain maps? Do Offense heroes respawn closer to the fight than other heroes?

If Blizzard decided tomorrow to move McCree from the Offense category to Defense, or Symmetra from Support to Defense, what difference would that make to the gameplay?

By that argument, Lazer, every Offense hero is mechanically unusual. Soldier is the only one with healing. Pharah is the only one that can fly. Tracer is the only one with blinks.

Genji, Sombra and Pharah are the only ones I'd argue qualify, though, because they truly ARE unique.

That being said, I think it'd be more efficient to have one entry say how overall, it's more common for a character TO have a unique playstyle than not to.

If everyone's unusual, then no one is. Blizzard takes very special care that no ability is perfectly duplicated between two heroes. That doesn't mean that every character is a Mechanically Unusual Fighter. They still share some basic similarities in the way they move and act.

That said, there are a few legit examples. Sombra can interact with health packs and with other heroes' abilities in a way that no other hero can. Lucio is the only hero that can buff his teammates' movement speed, which has implications in the way he times that ability and coordinates it with his team.

If Blizzard introduced a character tomorrow that could phase through walls or one that could directly add or subtract time from the match timer or one that was controlled from a top-down perspective instead of the first person, I'd consider that mechanically unusual.

Not having a mobility power, when only about half of the character roster does? Not mechanically unusual.

Does the trope actually restrict examples where most of the cast is unusual? If not, I think it's a good compromise.

From the description, "While Fighting Game characters often have different attacks and playstyles, they usually still share the same basic commands. Pressing A results in a light melee attack, back results in blocking, double forward results in a dash, and so on..."

The Overwatch roster doesn't have any Moveset Clones the way some fighting games do, but otherwise the variation between them isn't of a greater magnitude than that between any given two typical fighting game characters.

By definition, Mechanically Unusual Fighter can only be understood in comparison to the rest of the roster. All of the characters are still First-Person Shooter characters and play according to those constraints. They can move freely horizontally forward, back, left, and right, with a limited ability to move vertically. They have a cursor that they point to aim their abilities, and a common set of button presses that they use to activate those abilities. They have health bars that cause them to die and respawn when depleted. They share the same win and lose conditions. Et cetera.

Gotcha. Agreed 100% then.

Could we compromise by adding a different trope with a similar description? I was thinking Unexpected Gameplay Change could fit.

Unexpected Gameplay Change: Offensive heroes are usually defined as being "highly mobile damage dealers", and all of them fit that description except McCree. His lone "mobile" ability is Combat Roll, a short-ranged somersault with a painfully long cooldown, and is more useful as an instant reload than as a form of mobility. Compared to Genji's Swift Strike and Cyber Agility, Pharah's Jump Jet and Hover Jet, Reaper's Wraith Form and Teleport, Soldier: 76's Sprint, Sombra's Thermoptic Camo and Translocator, and Tracer's Blink and Recall, this is extremely lacking in comparison. Due to this, those used to other Offense heroes can be caught off-guard by his poor mobility. Mastery of McCree means having to play him very differently from the other Offense heroes. Rather than being a highly mobile threat who breaks the defense of the enemy he works best when guarding an area or objectives or picking off enemies at a distance, more akin to a Defense hero.

That doesn't sound like a gameplay change to me, honestly.

Basically, I think you've fallen into the common trap of noticing something about a work, and then hurriedly searching for a trope to fit it into.

Coming from someone who plays McCree regularly, I believe it should be noted that he's completely different from the other Offensive heroes in that he isn't mobile at all and requires a more defensive playstyle. What would you think is a more appropriate trope?

See? That's exactly what I was talking about.

I think one of the reasons you often have problems on these pages is that you want random observations or trivia you've noticed to be troped, somehow and some way. But that isn't how TV Tropes works.

In any case, though, that's a question for Trope Finder.

Often? I've been doing pretty good lately, it's only now when someone had issue with a trope I didn't think was a problem at all. I've been using concise language, and adding many relevant tropes without any issue.

I mean, from this morning alone there is discussion on three different Overwatch pages all saying you're shoehorning. That's... not great.

I was doing fine before now, I've added many tropes without a problem. I didn't see any issue in adding Mechanically Unusual Fighter here, and I still don't. But I'm not going to push this because this is tiresome to me.

It *is* shoehorning. Every single hero in the game has very specifics ability, and in this sense you could say that they're all "mechanically unusual" (that's one of the game's main selling points, for crying out loud). I don't see Mc Cree's relative slowness as being any more "unique" than Pharah's ability to fly or 76's ability to set down an AOE healing field that stays out for a few seconds (he's the not the only one that can heal, but he's the only one that can heal in this specific way). It is true that Mc Cree is the slowest and less mobile of all offense heroes, but that's something that *has* to exist, out of any number of heroes there's always going to be one that's the slowest and it doesn't make them "mechanically unusual".

I'd be in favor of adding a trope establishing Mc Cree's relative slowness: maybe the Mighty Glacier trope would fit, as he does pack very high damage especially at close range.

Ultimate Lazer, it's good that you're not going to push this issue but it honestly worries me you're doing it out of it being "tiresome" and not because you're recognizing you're in the wrong. If I recall correctly, you were suspended over this stuff once before. I don't want to see you suspended over it again. Please try to take this to heart, as the mods are not lenient on people who get suspended again for doing the same thing.

I don't think there is one. He's not similar enough to be an expy or shout out.

The technical term for that is "coincidence," which is not a trope.

Yeah, I was gonna get around to this when I had the time. You beat me to it.

I would argue that the two last words aren't necessary or accurate, though. Pharah is a target while she's in the air, for everyone—Genji, McCree, Soldier, Roadhog Bastion, Torb turrets, heck even Tracer if she's persistent enough. Pharah might have buildings she can hide behind, but that specifically undermines her kit. Up there, she can't pop in and out of cover like other characters to do damage. Once she's in the air, she's either staying there or waiting out her cooldown.

She's a target for everyone if she wanders close enough to be vulnerable, but if she's consistently getting hooked by Roadhog or taken down by Tracer or even Genji the player is either playing her wrong or has picked the wrong hero for the situation. McCree's range is long enough that he's a big threat at medium to medium-long range, and you have to do some maneuvering and carefully keep your distance to deal with a Soldier (although his increased spread and her improved midair mobility make him less of a hard counter than he used to be as of the last patch).

She's a pretty even match against Torb turrets and Bastions; they can make short work of her, but a couple rockets make equally short work of them and they can't dodge, so it really depends on who gets the first shot off. She might not be able to play peekaboo games, but she can stay close enough to cover to drop to safety and find another angle to attack from if it's obvious she's in a losing fight.

What if we changed "snipers" to "long-range characters"? That's broad enough to include threats like McCree / Bastion / Soldier / etc. without requiring us to get into Strategy Guide Mode for accuracy's sake.

It really has nothing to do with playing her "wrong".

If Pharah's in the air, Tracer can go directly beneath her and empty an entire clip. While the damage fall-off means she probably won't die, it'll still hurt a lot and Tracer can just do it over and over again. And Roadhog's hooks go crazy far—it's not that hard for him to pull her down.

And really, the last part is kind of proving my point. Defeating those characters depends on who sees who first. If Pharah is trying to pick off a Support, then while she's doing that. Bastion, Roadhog, Soldier, McCree, or all of the above can just fire at her. "Maneuvering" be damned. She's just a flat out sitting duck.

EDIT: Again, I think that's just unnecessary. Just take off the two words and it's accurate.

Roadhog's hooks don't go that far compared to the distance Pharah can easily keep with her midair mobility. If she's floating within hook range, that's on her. Ditto Tracer; Pharah shouldn't be anywhere near her effective range, which is very short. Genji's projectiles are slow enough that killing Pharah in midair requires either godlike aim and prediction or a very bad Pharah, probably both.

That leaves McCree, Soldier, Bastion, and snipers. Characters that excel at medium-long to long range, in other words.

I'm 100% sure his hook goes far enough. I've been on both sides of it. And I already talked about Tracer. As I said, if Tracer is persistent enough, she can seriously damage or even kill Pharah. Again, I've been on both sides of this.

Projectile characters in general are considered difficult to counter Pharah with, but not impossible. Genji's projectiles may be slow but they have no damage falloff, and he also has Quick Strike to finish her off with.

But really, we're getting bogged down in over-specifics. I mean I'm not seeing what the issue is here. Just take out two words and it covers the breadth of the problem. Pharah being open while in the air is what the general problem is. Everything else comes down to situational factors like how good the other person's aim is, and that becomes LESS of a factor the higher ranked you go.

Any character can kill any other character if the skill gap between players is large enough. By that logic, every character is weak to every other character.

If that was true, then a pro Pharah player would be considered safe against other pro players.

But that isn't the case at all. Even without McCree or snipers, pro players consider her an incredible risk that just isn't worth it without Mercy. (Who herself creates other risks.)

The only time Pharah is considered "too maneuverable" to hit in the air is at low skill levels. It's the reason she's considered a major pick for climbing to Platinum rank.

Actually, copy and pasting the backstory from the main website is not allowed, so we must change all descriptions of all the characters

She's the only who is copy-and-pasted I believe.

Almost all of the profiles are copy pasted. Only a handful of them really has original text, build around the original profiles.

Can you tell me which ones are original? I'd like to work on this later, and encourage other contributors to do so. It just seems really lazy to see copy and pasted text instead of bios that are of the TVTropes style.

Genji, Reaper's text after the third paragraph, Soldier after fourth paragraph, Hanzo after third paragraph, and I think that's all.

The information about how she feels about Overwatch and Jack did seem inaccurate, so I don't mind it getting deleted.

Hm. Being relatively new to the game, and having seen NONE of the expanded stories, I just assumed it was true because other people who'd seen it would know.

But if this is all based on the one line that Pharah says to S76, then yeah... It seems like just guessing.

I don't think we did.

Their ages were revealed in a panel in Comic-Con. A bunch of other things were confirmed as well (Like how Symmetra does indeed have a prosthetic for example)

I half agree. Some of it is definitely implied, but recently someone's been adding very questionable examples.

Specifically, my problem is with the edits that blame Overwatch's downfall on Morrison or the group's idealism, which is spotty. The real cause of its downfall was Reyes from start to finish. Sure, Morrison should have done more to notice Reyes's corruption, but Reyes is still the problem.

Expy does not mean just "takes inspiration from."

We're not worried about limiting the trope too much because it is ridiculously overused.

Expy is one of the most misused and shoehorned tropes we have, which is why it has a dedicated cleanup thread to deal with bad examples such as you describe.

Speaking of which, I've posted the history here in that thread.

I avoid the forums, if I can.

Larkmarn: What does it mean, then? Midnighter from Wildstorm Comics started as an obvious expy of Batman while Apollo was an expy of Superman. Both of them, however started with their own designs and origins and much different personalities (being willing to be brutal and use lethal force for one—being gay for two) and later BECAME part of the DC Universe itself, where they evolved away even further. The same is true of other Batman/Superman Expies like Blue Beetle (the original Blue Beetle was a Superman rip-off while the second was a Batman rip-off) and Shazam/Captain Marvel.

I'm using these examples because they are flat out rip-offs of the characters in question who evolved into their own characters. There is ZERO doubt that these characters are Expies, but according to the rules you guys are using, they wouldn't qualify. To me, that ruins the point of the trope.

High Crate:

Your assessment of Captain America is incorrect. You are using the post-Silver Age reboot of Captain America, NOT the original character. Sure, post-reboot, Captain America was put on ice and reawoke to the modern era, but that wasn't the original character.

Jack Morrison is an Expy of Golden Age Cap, with the exception that Jack Morrison was never frozen. Also, if you really want to be technical, Captain America did go through his "grizzled old man" schtick—on numerous occasions, he quit being Captain America and became either The Captain or Nomad. Ultimate Captain America was the "bitter man out of time" version.

I don't want to have the same conversation two different places, so I'm going to stick to the cleanup thread.

In that case, you could at least link to here. Even if you don't want to post here and I don't want to post there, the two threads can be consolidated.

Larkmarn already linked to it upthread.

Oh okay.

FYI, the thread is currently at a 3.5 (I'm only counting myself as a half since I haven't played the game) to 0 consensus to cut Soldier:76 as Captain America.

Not much I can say or do then. :(

If the skins are crow themed, that seems unlikely. And if we aren't sure, we shouldn't add it.