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MJC
topic
11:43:00 AM May 3rd 2014
Do Obito and Tobi really need separate entries at this point?

They're really not different characters, after all, Tobi is just Obito post Face-Heel-Turn. At this point Tobi's identity has been revealed in the anime, so I don't see too much reason for the same character to have two separate entries. Might be prudent to merge them.
SeptimusHeap
12:41:07 AM May 4th 2014
The only reason I can see to keep them separate would be spoiler tagging issues.
Rondomi
topic
09:29:38 AM Jul 3rd 2013
Should Madara go to "Team Tobi", or the new "Uchiha Clan" page that will launch soon? On one hand, he's part of the Uchiha Clan, but on the other, he's in the same group as Tobi and his section is so large and the "Team Tobi" page could use some size.
Lightflame
09:47:04 AM Jul 3rd 2013
Context on the "New Uchiha Clan page":

Because of a problem with the formatting, pages that are too large need to be split, which is why the character page is split up and the Akatsuki page was just split. Pages tend to be split when they reach a character count of 400K. You can see the character count at the very bottom of a page, and at the time of this writing it is about 347K. Since Naruto is a popular series, this page will probably get 53K more and be split. And if it were split, one of the pages it would be split into would be one for the Uchiha Clan.
Rondomi
08:30:56 PM Jul 17th 2013
Super Saiya Man has taken care of the job, it seems.
Eagal
topic
05:25:18 PM May 11th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.43
On the subject of removing Idiot Ball and Stupid Sacrifice for Rin alleged because of Fan Wank.

If Minato can seal away something as powerful as the Nine-tails he sure as hell can seal away the three tails. You're right that we don't positively know for sure that Minato could have done anything. We also don't know that he couldn't. That doesn't matter because what we think is irrelevant. What matters is what Rin thinks and Rin assumed out of hand that he couldn't. Nothing would have been lost from her waiting, so it is still idiotic and stupid for her to throw her life away right then and there.

P.S. This isn't relevant, but I wouldn't characterize it as Fan Wank, because I wouldn't want people to think I'm a fan of Minato. I actually loathe him. I think he and the other Hokages ought to the standard by which terrible terrible leaders are measured.
lycropath
12:48:36 AM May 13th 2013
edited by 69.172.221.6
The situation is that we can assume Minato is not in a position where he can immediately help her (Much like he wasn't readily available to help Obito) and just by her arriving she would have already caused a hectic amount of collateral damage just by the sheer size of the transformation. The Mist Ninja are in a fake pursuit to hurry them to the village and neither of them are in the position to fight them off and wait for Minato to back them up. Kakashi's already refused the issue and went for a last ditch attack on their pursuers, its a do or die moment at that point and all Rin could do is the noble thing and let herself be sacrificed.
Eagal
01:28:09 AM May 13th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.44
Continuing to Konoha will result in death. Not continuing to Konoha also results in death. The Mist is "pursuing" them and stopping is not possible because...they'll kill them?

Why not try fighting the Mist ninjas again? If you think you're going to die one way or the other, trying to fight your enemies, potentially gaining the opportunity for a reprieve in the event, however likely or unlikely it may be, that Minato will arrive in time, is far and away the better choice than "Kill me now because plot, lol."

Still stupid. Still idiotic.
Eagal
01:28:10 AM May 13th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.44
Ignore this!
lycropath
03:26:44 AM May 13th 2013
If Rin tries to fight the Mist ninja (who have already captured her before) she risks again being captured and then she is up a creek without a paddle and can be used against Konoha again if not that day then another. They aren't going to be so wasteful as to just murder such a valuable resource when she resists.

More then anything this seems just like complaining about plot lines you don't like.
Eagal
04:14:13 PM May 13th 2013
So they capture her, and maybe they try to use her as a Fantastic Nuke some other time. She lives another day, and when they try again Minato and co. will be ready. Her goal of sparing Konoha said Fantastic Nuke can still be achieved without needlessly throwing her life away and her idiotic decision to needlessly throw her life away still fuels the entire plot because it resulted in Obito going insane.

Need the two be mutually exclusive? Suppose I don't like the plot line because it runs on Idiot Ball and Stupid Sacrifice. Am I not entitled to dislike it? Need I be 100% objectively removed from liking or disliking a series to add tropes about it?
lycropath
09:46:47 PM May 13th 2013
I don't think you get it, This is a situation where she has the power to strike down a plot that will certainly bring great destruction to her village under every circumstance. Her best case scenario that you are suggesting is a very slim chance that she is captured to be set on the Leaf another day but there is no more a guarantee that anyone will be there to stop her then and above all that she has opportunity to end their plot now and drag the three tails with her. There is nothing stupid or idiotic about not banking on the off chance.
Eagal
10:11:22 AM May 14th 2013
Two Hokages, two or three Sannin, Danzo. A veritable who's who of ninjas strong enough to tangle with a tailed beast and come out on top, if it's even released at all, which it need not be.

Additionally, there's no reason they should just sit around and allow the Mist to send Rin into the village. Intercept them outside the village, put the kibosh on the Mist, try to permanently seal the three tails. Then and only then, if doing so proves impossible, would sacrificing her life for the village when there's no other choice between death and allowing the three tails to go on a rampage, would sacrificing your life not be idiotic.

This is pretty cut and dry, and this conversation has even unearthed even more idiocy on Rin's part, e.g. her lack of faith in Minato's abilities.
lycropath
11:56:43 AM May 14th 2013
All those people you listed should have logically been around when the Kyuubi attacked too and hundreds of people still died just from the collateral damage, the three tails even has an attack where it just curls up and steamrolls through things that's definitely not something you want happening in the village not even bringing up the tailed beast ball that very few people in the series have been able to deal with. Those ninja still need to get that thing out of the village before they can even think of sealing it away and it actually took a veritable legion to do so in an attack that we have seen. Its not like a fight with a tailed beast is so simple that in the middle of a village people won't get in the way and die just from the fighting.

Who exactly is going to intercept them? No one in the leaf knows that she's become a Jinchuuriki with a seal that's doctored or controlled. Kakashi would be dead because he refused the issue and attacked when the fake pursuit when they where out numbered and out gunned and Rin is being forced against her will to return them. You keep making up scenarios but Rin is the only one who knows she's an unwilling host so no one is going to stop her from coming into the village and by the time she's in village to get that help its already to late, that thing is bursting through the streets and crushing people like ants.
Eagal
05:52:03 PM May 14th 2013
Concerning their absence during the Kyuubi attack, Obito summoned it right on top of them. They had no advanced warning and Minato was the only one around. Not so in this case, where they have all hands on deck, being in the middle of a war if I'm not terribly mistaken. Or just lolKishi. Whichever. Their failure to appear then doesn't really have any bearing on their ability to combat a tailed beast.

Concerning the steamroller ball dealyjobber and the tailed beast ball, reference: if it's even released at all, which it need not be.

They know that Rin was captured by the Mist. When a ninja is captured by the enemy and then released for no evident reason, would you be dumb enough to accept without question that they're doing this out of the goodness of their hearts? No, you'd suspect some sort of trap. An attack against Konoha of some sort, so you take steps to isolate her before she gets to Konoha after being released.

Yeah, I do keep coming up with scenarios, ones that Rin should have thought of instead of getting herself killed for no reason. What someone who isn't holding the Idiot Ball should do.
lycropath
06:30:55 PM May 14th 2013
Yes and who would be in the village? Orochimaru, Danzo and Jiraiya are all shinobi on active duty and probably fighting in the war, Minato is likely on a mission or in the front lines because he isn't with Kakashi and Sarutobi is just one man no matter how powerful he is the three tails will give him trouble. There are far to many variables and a certainty of excess casualties.

You forget that the Mist where taking precaution to look like Kakashi succeeded in rescuing her to further this goal in the first place. Besides its unknown who knows Rin's been captured? The only one we know that has intel that Rin is captured is Kakashi, its unlikely she was plucked from Konoha one day, but much more likely she was taken on a mission and Kakashi went to save her rather then continue his objectives. Even if she was taken from the village and the shinobi are on alert to a plot as you assume they are, not many would suspect a thing if Kakashi saved her and brought her back nor should they be surprised if he died to help her escape considering the mortality rate of the occupation their first instinct would likely to secure her safety in the village and debrief her.

I'm sorry but this is just far to narrow of a justification for Idiot Ball and Stupid Sacrifice to be added.
lycropath
06:30:55 PM May 14th 2013
edited by 69.172.221.6
Double Post.
Werebazs
topic
04:18:58 AM Apr 12th 2013
edited by 70.33.253.42
Hi, there, I haven't been around for a while, I admit, lately I lost my interest in Naruto. Okay, here're my arguments for why I think Madara is not a Bigger Bad:
A Bigger Bad is someone/something, who has nothing to do with the conflict of the story. It's malicious, and more threatening/powerful than the Big Bad who runs the plot, but it's not involved in it. Madara however IS involved: he's the one who came up with the plan in the first place; he's the one who planted the idea in Tobi's head; he gave the Rinnegan to Nagato for the explicit reason of using it to ressurect him when the time comes; and finally: he is the one who truly benefits from the plan, since it's all about him wanting to Take Over the World.
Regardless of how much he was (not) involved in actually putting the plan into motion, and how little he contributed to it, he is the mastermind behind it, therefore he is responsible for the conflict of the story. These are the attributes of The Man Behind the Man, not the signs of a Bigger Bad.\\
Madara
07:29:30 AM Apr 12th 2013
I would like you to name a couple of Bigger Bads.
Werebazs
07:58:39 AM Apr 12th 2013
edited by 70.33.253.44
There's the Ten-tails/Juubi from this very series. It didn't cause the conflict, it's merely a powerful and evil creature, that terrorised the world centuries ago, but got sealed away, and now the Big Bads seek to exploit it for their Evil Plan.
The Akatsuki itself also fits for Part 1. Orochimaru's own agenda was the cause of the conflict in that part of the manga, with the Akatsuki being there as a larger threat, but had nothing to do with the events.
Outside the Narutoverse, there's The Dark Side of the Force for Star Wars, which is far more powerful than Palpatine himself, but it didn't cause the conflict of the movies.
In the Tolkienverse, Morgoth is the ultimate evil but he had nothing to do with the events of Lord of the Rings.\\
Lightflame
12:01:10 PM Apr 12th 2013
Madara isn't the Bigger Bad, since he is the main antagonist of the series.
Madara
03:24:49 PM Apr 12th 2013
"A Bigger Bad is someone/something, who has nothing to do with the conflict of the story."

The Juubi has tons to do with the story. If it weren't for it, then the conflict wouldn't exist.

The Dark Side of the Force also wouldn't be considered a Bigger Bad, because if it weren't for that there wouldn't be any major conflict in Star Wars. I could make the argument that the Dark Side is the cause of conflict.

In fact, now that I look at it, there doesn't even seem to be a Big Bad of Naruto. It seems to be going by Arc Villain, what if it continues after Madara?

Introduction Arc: Kakashi Land of Waves Arc: Zabuza Chunin Exams Arc: Neji Invasion of Konoha Arc: Orochimaru Search For Tsunade Arc: Orochimaru Sasuke Retrieval Arc: Sasuke Kazekage Rescue Arc: Deidara Sasuke and Sai Arc: Orochimaru Hidan and Kakuzu Arc: Hidan Itachi Pursuit Arc: Itachi Invasion of Pain Arc: Pain Five Kage Summit Arc: Danzo Confining the Jinchuuriki Arc: Kyuubi Shinobi World War Arc: Tobi Ten-Tails Revival Arc: Madara

I think it's to early to even determine a big-picture Big Bad. Isn't that usually reserved for when a work is finished? I have said that Tobi was the Big Bad because he caused the most conflicts at a personal level, with Madara being the Bigger Bad, because, until Edo Tensei, we knew nothing about the real Madara. Not to mention, he hasn't taken the seat yet, and Tobi has him by the throat. What if Tobi's blackmail comes into fruition and Madara fails before Tobi is out? Then what? Who does the label go to? Are they both Big Bads? That's what we said about Tobi and Kabuto, whereas Kabuto went from "one of the main antagonists" to "a major antagonist" as quoted by Narutopedia.

The label keeps being passed around. I no longer care who it goes to, really. I did two months ago, but now I wait for everything to become solid.
Werebazs
10:47:41 PM Apr 12th 2013
edited by 70.33.253.44
"The Juubi has tons to do with the story. If it weren't for it, then the conflict wouldn't exist."

Read the trope description: " the setting has a villainous presence that is more significant than the Big Bad in the setting as a whole, but isn't causing the conflict of the story (and may have little to do with it at all). Perhaps, it is an important Sealed Evil in a Can that never gets released, is simply unconcerned with current events, or is a mindless force that can't by any realistic stretch of the imagination be considered a character. Sometimes, the real Big Bad will seek to exploit or make use of it, or may pay lip service to it, though this doesn't always happen."

The Juubi is more powerful than either Madara or Tobi, but it isn't personally responisble for the conflict. Getting it is merely part of the Evil Plan, it's basicly a MacGuffin, that the villains need. The Juubi is not the cause of the conflict, but it's goal.

"The Dark Side of the Force also wouldn't be considered a Bigger Bad, because if it weren't for that there wouldn't be any major conflict in Star Wars. I could make the argument that the Dark Side is the cause of conflict."

Again: Palpatine was the one who orchestrated the conflict. Yes, without the Dark Side, he wouldn't have been able to do it, but the Dark Side itself didn't cause any of the events. It's a mindless force, more powerful than the main villain, but it's inactive and has no direct influence over the events.

"In fact, now that I look at it, there doesn't even seem to be a Big Bad of Naruto. It seems to be going by Arc Villain, what if it continues after Madara?..."

That's called a Big Bad Ensemble. Just because it's called Big Bad, it doesn't necessarly means he's the only one.

What you oversee is that every Akatsuki related arcs are about fulfilling the same Evil Plan, and that plan belongs to Madara. It's Madara's plan to take over the world that caused most of the conflicts of the story, starting from the Kyuubi's attack to individual Akatsuki member arcs, and to the Fourth Shinobi War. An Arc Villain is Arc Villain because he has important role (whether that role is active or inactive is irrelevant) only in his own Story Arc. Madara however is the man who's behind Tobi, who's behind Pain, who's behind Akatsuki, tus he has important role in the entire series.

By the way Neji and Danzou were not villains.

"I have said that Tobi was the Big Bad because he caused the most conflicts at a personal level, with Madara being the Bigger Bad, because, until Edo Tensei, we knew nothing about the real Madara." Except Big Bad and Bigger Bad are not determined by stuff like this. The Big Bad is the one who orchestrated the conflict. That role belongs to Madara, with Tobi acting as The Dragon for him. Just like just because Palpatine didn't have much importance in A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back, he is still the Big Bad of those movies as well.

"Not to mention, he hasn't taken the seat yet" Again,that has nothing to do with determining a Big Bad. Palpatine "took seat" in Revenge of the Sith, but he's still the Big Bad for The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones, becase the conflicts are part of his Evil Plan.

"and Tobi has him by the throat. What if Tobi's blackmail comes into fruition and Madara fails before Tobi is out?" Then what? Who does the label go to?"

As I already said: there can be more than one Big Bad in a story. If Tobi turns against Madara, then he'll be The Starscream and/or the Dragon with an Agenda and if he succeeds in usurping Madara then he'll be the next Big Bad. Right now the two is somewhere between a Big Bad Duumvirate and a Big Bad-The Dragon duo.
Madara
07:22:46 AM Apr 13th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.43
...............................................................................................

Aww, damn, ya got me. I forgot about Big Bad Ensemble.
jmf6401
09:45:09 PM Nov 27th 2013
Danzou WAS a villain. He betrayed and manipulated Konoha simply for his own personal benefit using the pretense of patriotism to justify his treason to himself. Anyone who actually believes otherwise should be neutered as they're too stupid to be allowed to breed.
MysteriousF
topic
05:56:39 PM Oct 2nd 2012
Regarding Obito, I think that if every other trope listed has a spoiler tag after it mentions he died, it will spoil the reveal about Tobi's identity to those who do not already know. I think that we should only have something like "Except he lived and became TOBI." in spoiler tags in the main description of the character. This way, we avoid the risk of ruining the twist for those who do not know as much as we possibly can.
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