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Willbyr
moderator
topic
09:54:37 PM Dec 31st 2013
The following Hot Mom wick has been removed due to that trope becoming a disambiguation page. If there's a trope in that list that fits the example more, please replace with the proper trope; otherwise it'll stay removed.

SeptimusHeap
topic
05:01:52 AM Oct 19th 2013
A note for people asking for edits: This forum thread deals with edit requests to locked pages. Feel free to bring them up here; posting here will just cause them to get lost.
TheAnswer
topic
12:42:16 PM Jun 3rd 2013
Can I please add The Southpaw to Reno as well as The Quiet One to Yazoo?
Arawn444
topic
11:41:49 PM Mar 14th 2013
edited by Arawn444
Humanoid Abomination is being redefined, tentatively to specifically refer to Eldritch Abominations in human form. I brought up Sephiroth, and was told that he "touches on many points, but at the whole is just too human" to qualify for this new definition. Therefore, I suggest that he be reclassified as Ambiguously Human.

Also, Hellish Pupils is mentioned twice in his section, so one should be removed to avoid unnecessary repetition.
DrakeClawfang
topic
12:30:28 PM Oct 1st 2012
So where do we go to request edits to the protected page now?
Telcontar
moderator
01:00:10 PM Oct 1st 2012
lu127
moderator
topic
03:41:16 AM May 2nd 2012
This entry about Sephiroth was the subject of an edit war. Do not put it back until you discuss it here.

The Pawn: The exact relationship between JENOVA and Sephiroth (ie, which one of them is dominant) is debatable: Some statements by the creators state that Sephiroth was the one in control over JENOVA during the game's present day, but Dissidia 012's Museum's FFVII bio for Sephiroth's reference to him returning as an agent to JENOVA's will as well as his monologues indicate that JENOVA was in fact the one controlling him.
Epyon
03:34:56 AM May 7th 2012
edited by Epyon
Having following in Jenova's footsteps as his goal, does not disqualify him as The Chessmaster and make him The Pawn, the quotes in Dissidia 012 show him remember his previous intentions show being just as scheming, malicious and unchanged before he remembered her. And he still follows Jenov's will long after she is dead or in another dimension. So tell me, where is there evidence that not only is Sephiroth not in control of his mind, but not in the least bit the progenitor of his plans, therefore making him The Pawn rather then The Chessmaster?

Even if Jenova's stepping into his mind is what originally changed his objectives, which his very speculative, The Virus trope more then describes this, for The Pawn to be true, Jenova would have have to be concious presence aware of it's actions. Which it hasn't been shown to be at all.
EJO1
11:48:35 AM May 7th 2012
As promised, I am going to discuss it.

Yes, but he still didn't pull a Wesker on her and pretty much atomized her and thus destroyed her for good while telling her that the right to become a god is now his. Being a Chessmaster would imply that he doesn't follow anyone's will but his own. That's why I cannot say he's a chessmaster but may in fact be a pawn. Heck, Palpatine was a Chessmaster, and we can clearly tell that regarding Plagueis by backstabbing him, taking over his role, and not only that, but also the strong implication that Palpatine had actually manipulated him into making him his apprentice and possibly even their meeting.

And when I cited Dissidia 012 as conflicting evidence, I was referring to his museum bio, specifically the Final Fantasy VII section:

"Once revered as a hero, Sephiroth disappeared for several years, only to return as an enemy of the planet, striking fear in all.

As an elite member of Shinra's SOLDIER, he was revered as a hero for his unrivaled strength, yet was a human who connected with those around him.

Once learning of his origin, he refers to the Calamity that fell from the skies, Jenova, as his mother, and acts as an agent to carry out her will."

Had he actually been a chessmaster, he obviously would not have been referred to as an "agent" for her, as that would imply some inferiorness to her.
Epyon
04:40:08 PM Jul 20th 2012
"Being a Chessmaster would imply that he doesn't follow anyone's will but his own."

No, it does not. Plenty of subordinates are included in the Chessmaster trope. His agenda being carrying out his will does not disqualify him as a chessmaster cause it does nothing to prove that his mindgames, plans and schemes are anyone's but his own. Some inferiorness does not make a pawn. You don't the Pawn trope with every single person that has respect for someone else. Almost Everything he does must be orchastrated by Jenova. Considering she's mostly braindead since a twothousand years before his births, that's unlikely.
Epyon
topic
08:13:26 AM Apr 22nd 2012
The Cannot Spit It Out thing with Tifa comes from her not having any confidence in her own memories, not because she already knows his mind will shatter if she points it out. Cloud's account can account for everything Tifa remembers, it includes accurate details concerning what was in Tifa's bedroom at the time and goes into how Sephiroth mind broke, Tifa memories are completely unable to explain what Cloud knows and she was the one that hit her head hard in the Mako Reactor and woke up in Midgar, on another continent completely unable to explain how she got there.

She doesn't bring it up cause she has every reason to think she is the one whose memory is skewed up.
NonoRobot
topic
01:45:59 AM Jan 22nd 2012
lycropath removed the entry about Barret's "Ho Yay" moment with Cloud. May we have an explanation please (since it sounds to me, at least, that it was a Ho Yay moment, which is referenced in the Ho Yay section too) ?

  • Ho Yay: It's possible for Barret to be Cloud's date partner, though his starting score is the lowest. Rest assured Hilarity Ensues.
lycropath
02:12:14 AM Jan 22nd 2012
Ho Yay belongs in the YMMV tab, perhaps Gay Option would suit the entry better?
NonoRobot
02:50:11 AM Jan 22nd 2012
Hmmm, maybe. I admit that I didn't realize it was a YMMV trope. My apologies, I understand why you removed it now.
SeptimusHeap
topic
10:04:36 AM Jan 21st 2012
Please sort the Edit War about this entry about Cloud Strife out here rather than on the page:
  • Will They or Won't They?: He and Tifa are the Official Couple, but Word of God tiptoes around confirming the exact status of their relationship — there's little to no physical affection between theme, and the word "love" has never been attributed to either of them, instead the developers use terms such as "mutual feelings". The Maybe Ever After nature of their relationship is even lampshaded in the Case of Tifa novella.
Epyon
11:13:51 AM Jan 22nd 2012
Will They Or Wont They does not describe their situation. It's Are They or Aren't They rather.
Arawn444
11:31:35 PM Mar 14th 2013
Except "Are They or Aren't They" isn't a trope.
SpicyMintin
topic
10:52:20 PM Jan 5th 2012
What the Hell Hero is not relevant to Cloud beating Aerith. The trope describes if the character is called out IN STORY, not the viewers personal opinion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall Cloud ever being called out for this.
Lednev
topic
02:48:19 AM Dec 16th 2011
edited by Lednev
As of yesterday if you had read the characters page Tifa is a single mother and the nature of her and Cloud's relationship is up in the air. Which would contrast rather greatly from how they are described in every other relevant page where the topic is brought up. As far as SE is concerned the Will They or Won't They? was answered in the OG. If you want the entry to stay in it needs to reflect this. (which would also line up with the actual entry on the WTOWT page)
lycropath
11:23:27 PM Jan 5th 2012
It wasn't resolved in the original game at all and Square Enix has exploited the ambiguous relationship throughout the Compilation for drama such as Tifa's silent wonderment of Cloud really loving her too developers comments that Tifa plays the role of a woman abandoned in Advent Children. Officially yes their feeling for each other are the same but if Tifa is still wondering if Cloud loves her, I think it qualifies for a note of Will They or Won't They?.
Lednev
03:57:04 AM Jan 19th 2012
Tell you what. Why don't you go and try to edit every single page on TV Tropes that brings up Cloud and Tifa's relationship and see if this crap flies on any of them. Better yet just try the main page. And once you are done doing that come back here and apologize for wasting my time having to correct this alright?
NonoRobot
05:21:27 AM Jan 21st 2012
This issue is getting... Tiring to say the least, and is leading to an edit war. At this rate, a moderator should be called.
DrakeClawfang
09:46:13 AM Jan 21st 2012
Been done.

To say it shouldn't be worded this way because no other trope entry on TV Tropes does it is a pathetic excuse, that means go clean up those entries to be more accurate, not exclude valid information to suit your opinion.
Lednev
01:11:50 PM Jan 21st 2012
This issue have been done to death. Cloud and Tifa are together. Word of God has confirmed this. Just leave it alone already.
DrakeClawfang
01:12:50 PM Jan 21st 2012
You have yet to provide an argument that proves the entry invalid - that is, that the nature of their emotional and physical relationship is unambiguous.
Lednev
01:25:17 PM Jan 21st 2012
edited by Lednev
Die for Our Ship never seems to let this pairing go for long without someone trying to edit entries on one page or another. Again this has been done to death. There is a reason all the other entries say the same thing about their relationship.
DrakeClawfang
01:28:51 PM Jan 21st 2012
edited by DrakeClawfang
No one is saying that Cloud and Tifa are not the official couple. What the entry is saying is that the exact status of their relationship is ambiguous and even lampshaded in-universe. Again, provide an argument on why the entry and the information is provides are invalid. All you're doing so far is acting like this is a case of arguing they aren't a couple, which is not the issue.
Lednev
01:40:52 PM Jan 21st 2012
edited by Lednev
You are trying to discredit/ignore the Word of God about Cloud and Tifa. SE has not been ambiguous. Which is why at one point nearly every entry about the subject had the "confirmed by Word of God" tag attached to it. Trying to insert false ambiguity into the equation is nonsense pure and simple. In an issue that has been resolved multiple times nonetheless.

So I will repeat what I said to begin with. The Will They or Won't They? entry needs to reflect that C/T in fact DID by the end of the original game.
DrakeClawfang
01:45:26 PM Jan 21st 2012
edited by DrakeClawfang
No I am not trying to discredit or ignore them. Yes, Word of God confirms they are the official couple. Word of God does not confirm they have physically consummated their relationship, or that they are currently in a romantic relationship. Stop making accusations and explain to me why the entry's statements are incorrect.
DrakeClawfang
02:07:58 PM Jan 21st 2012
Modified entry after speaking to others about the idea.

Will They Or Wont They: He and Tifa are the Official Couple, but Word Of God tiptoes around confirming the exact status of their relationship they have trouble expressing themselves through physical affection, and it isn't confirmed if they're in a romantic relationship or not after the events of the game. The Maybe Ever After nature of their relationship is even lampshaded in the Case of Tifa novella.
Epyon
11:11:54 AM Jan 22nd 2012
Whatever the case, Tifa being described as a single mother is in no way accurate. Barret is Marlene's adopted father and Cloud Denzel's.
Bobbycanfly
04:11:27 AM Jan 23rd 2012
I'm not sure why someone who is familiar with the actual Word of God on the subject of Cloud and Tifa's relationship (the very same Word of God which has been used multiple times on this site) would insist on adding an entry that says it doesn't exist.

The fact that Cloud and Tifa are in a confirmed romantic relationship makes the way the entry is worded simply wrong.
DrakeClawfang
10:04:55 AM Jan 23rd 2012
"Cloud and Tifa are in a confirmed romantic relationship" - except they aren't. That entry confirms their mutual romantic feelings, it does not confirm the extent to which they act on them.
Bobbycanfly
02:20:12 PM Jan 23rd 2012
So after Cloud and Tifa confirm their mutual romantic feelings for each other (without words) they live together and raise two children. What about this relationship is supposed to be unconfirmed?

DrakeClawfang
02:49:43 PM Jan 23rd 2012
Fine, I'm done arguing. Was sick of this after dealing with Lednev, not gonna go through it all again.
lycropath
03:43:54 PM Jan 23rd 2012
"So after Cloud and Tifa confirm their mutual romantic feelings for each other (without words) they live together and raise two children. What about this relationship is supposed to be unconfirmed?"

They also have separate beds and so little signs of a relationship even Tifa can get distressed and confused by it.
Bobbycanfly
10:15:47 PM Jan 23rd 2012
That just seems nit-picky Lycro. Why ignore the big obvious things to try and find an excuse to say they are not in a relationship?

lycropath
11:22:08 PM Jan 23rd 2012
I originally made the comment on Will They or Won't They? because I thought it worth noting that Cloud's aloofness makes the nature of exact nature of their relationship a mystery and even makes it strained in universe(even that Tifa lampshades the emotional distance between them by asking him if he actually loves her or not). Part of the intrigue I find in Tifa and Cloud's relationship is its ambiguous nature and Square-Enix does well too capitalize on their Maybe Ever After relationship for drama.
Bobbycanfly
01:01:35 AM Jan 24th 2012
Cloud having issues that puts a strain on their relationship in Co T does not make it mysterious. Plus the fact that Cloud gets over his issues during the movie. He tells Tifa this right after he saves her and Denzel. And in the end he returns home.

So what exactly is SE trying to capitalize on post Advent Children?

marcellX
08:06:47 AM Jan 24th 2012
He returns home. We don't know what happens after he returns home, how their relationship is now, he still hasn't done anything, all he has done is return to the previous state where they were all living together until Cloud left due to the stigma. As Drakeclaws said, there are two groups going at two different arguments.
Bobbycanfly
03:38:02 PM Jan 24th 2012
Yes there are two different arguments here. One argument looks at the Word of God about Cloud and Tifa's relationship, where it states that they love each other and that is the reason they live together. That looks at them deciding to raise Marlene for Barret and later adopt Denzel. Which accepts that the issues causing trouble in their already established relationship are solved in the movie. At the end of which Cloud returns home to his family.

The other argument seems to be saying that although they love each other they just kind of floated around for two years and then we are left with a big mystery after the movie.
DrakeClawfang
topic
09:47:48 PM Jul 9th 2011
This Johnny entry is pathetic, stupid, not-funny and borderline trolling. Copied and pasted as originally said.

Johnny

Johnny, in all his 32-bit glory.

The single most important character in the entire freakin' Compilations of Final Fantasy VII franchise.

Besides the ludicrous tone, Johnny is nowhere near important enough for note on the page. Dio, Don Corneo and even Bugenhagen are more deserving than a glorified NPC with no relevance to anything. The idiocy needs to stop.
secondtime
09:47:10 AM Jul 13th 2011
edited by secondtime
First off, this is not the most recent form of the entry.

And if someone wants to go ahead and post a Don Corneo entry, that's fine by me. But simply because no one has done so is not grounds to keep Johnny, no matter how rough, off the page.

Although forgettable on the surface, if one pays attention they will notice that Johnny receives approximately the same degree of backstory as a few playable characters. He was intended to have a somewhat larger role from the beginning, and, again, He also appeared in Case of Denzel, thus making Him a recurring character throughout the series.

If one objects to His 32-bit glory, then this picture may make a fine substitute, although it fails to showcase His jacket:

i43.tinypic.com/161ca60.jpg

Please reconsider. Yes, the entry could use a rewrite, as it was rushed and perhaps a few other "minor" characters should be added, yes. But if you stil do not believe that Johnny meets the lofty standards of a subentry on a TV Tropes character sheet, then it would appear that someone's taking something way too damn seriously.

P.S.: If I was actually full-on trolling, I would have used a picture from "The Sevening."
secondtime
06:38:00 PM Jul 16th 2011
If I do not receive a response soon, I will go ahead and revert the article to its state con Johnny.
DrakeClawfang
06:53:51 PM Jul 16th 2011
I still object. Johnny is not a relevant character. It isn't just the tone, it's the fact that he flat isn't important. He's a minor background character and nothing more.
secondtime
01:00:30 PM Jul 19th 2011
edited by secondtime
First off, I want to take this opportunity to stress that Johnny is not the recurring "tough guy" extra with somewhat similar hair and dressing style, pictured here: i55.tinypic.com/qxvx9g.jpg

(This picture makes it clear that I was wrong about the sunglasses. I got that from a character bio I found.)

I understand where you're coming from, but again, I believe Johnny- as well as scores of other overlooked characters- is at least qualified to make the TV Tropes characters page. There is a precedent. About a minute ago, I just went to a random character page to check. On a hunch, for some reason I chose "AVATAR: The Last Airbender," first try. Their character page includes a fragment of a character summary for "Cabbage Merchant." The purpose of "Cabbage Merchant" is to occasionally have his cabbages knocked over and shout "My CABBAGES!" Immediately under that? "Foamy mouth guy," another flat, useless character getting his own profile with approximately the same level of depth.

Now, let's look at Johnny for contrast. Although not the most important character as I had (rather trollingly) claimed, he is actually a dynamic and somewhat interesting character- you see him shift from a sort of depressed obsession, still infatuated with Tifa and unable to get her out of his head, to having sporadic fits of rage to, finally, serene acceptance and a sense of moving onward, despite the sense of doom that currently plagues his and everyone else's conscience. And, while not having the same role as he did initially, he still plays a few important roles- one, in Costa de Sol, which adds to the semi-schizophrenic aura of confused dementia, and one which serves to add considerable depth to Cloud's flashback (he is the author of the distanced "love letter" upon Tifa's counter, and possibly the first to suggest moving to Midgar), thus making him in the short term a more monumental character than Zangan, who also should probably be on this page.
MrDeath
08:32:50 AM Jul 25th 2011
Most people who played the game don't even know Johnny exists. I certainly didn't until your repeated postings.
secondtime
11:07:35 AM Jul 25th 2011
Exactly. I think awareness should be spread of this highly underrated, yet influential character.
MrDeath
11:58:04 AM Jul 25th 2011
Thank you for missing my point entirely.

You know what, I'm not even going to bother with a proper response since it's clear you're not going to listen, and you've just got some weird obsession about a "character" whose significance amounts to the level of "background detail."
secondtime
12:16:46 PM Jul 25th 2011
edited by secondtime
Again, the letter, THE LETTER!

Additionally, there were most likely thousands upon thousands of players who never discovered Vincent or saw Yuffie's name. I myself most likely would never have even fought Yuffie were it not for a sense of experimental exploration that arose once I received the buggy.

I am in no way saying that Johnny is a more important character than either of those two playable characters; I am simply saying that impact upon the player does not neccessarily equal the relevance to the franchise.
MrDeath
05:26:52 AM Jul 26th 2011
The letter is, again, a background detail.

Also, bullshit. Yuffie and Vincent were in the manual, in every strategy guide, and in a fair amount of the marketing. They weren't really a secret, so chances are if you were playing the game, you knew about them. This "most likely thousands upon thousands" of players who never heard of them is utter tosh.

Impact on one player doesn't mean he's a relevant character. Maybe, just maybe, if you hadn't made the original post so obviously trolling that it got you suspended, you might be able to make a case. Instead, you made a crappy first impression, so nobody's going to take you seriously. Them's the breaks.
secondtime
09:09:20 AM Jul 26th 2011
edited by secondtime
First off, I cannot apologize enough for my first impression. It was the result of a combination of short-sighted stupidity and being in a hurry. Now my objectives focus entirely on a concern for appreciation of additional layers of depth to the game (and respect for those who contributed) and defense of my already soiled reputation (posting in a rush has resulted in a few things on this wiki that I don't think I'll live down).

Additionally, according to my (conservative) estimates based on sales, "thousands upon thousands" would refer to considerably less than a twentieth of a percent of the total number of players. I'm sorry that I used such misleading terms there, but taking that into consideration, what I said was actually a bit of an understatement.

The impact thing is exactly what I said in my post. And while the letter may be considered a background detail, it does, from an artistic standpoint, add a considerable deal to the story.

Johnny made The Other Wiki and the Final Fantasy Wiki. And, while conducting "research," I discovered that this character has something of a cult following. (Example: http://tifa.nu/tifa/original/original.php?z=johnny ) And that doesn't even mention Case of Denzel.

On an unrelated point, I would- and I need to stress that I AM being sincere here- like to thank you for introducing me to the word "tosh," which although I've probably heard before, I've never noticed, being from the American Midwest (of course, after research, I discovered that "them's the breaks" is also American- not sure what to make of this.). I do plan on using this word often in the future.
secondtime
11:14:21 AM Jul 28th 2011
Hello?
Epyon
08:07:02 AM Apr 22nd 2012
"(he is the author of the distanced "love letter" upon Tifa's counter, and possibly the first to suggest moving to Midgar),"

No, he isn't.
Kohdok
topic
07:20:38 AM May 4th 2011
No matter how many times you change it back, Tifa is still not "First Girl Wins". First Girl Wins refers to the first girl introduced, either at all or a potential love interest, not the girl the protagonist met first chronologically. Aerith appeared first overall (opening scene and escaping the destroyed reactor) and Jessie was the first to hit on Cloud as a potential love interest(On the train back to Sector 7). Tifa comes in third place. She is Victorious Childhood Friend, NOT First Girl Wins.
Epyon
04:42:54 PM Jul 24th 2011
Cloud met Jessie on screen first.
secondtime
11:08:48 AM Jul 25th 2011
He/she already pointed that out.
DrakeClawfang
topic
11:58:03 PM Mar 8th 2011
"Removed because it is assumption. SE tells us that she acts the way she does around Cloud because of Zack. Plus it takes Aerith until the optional date scene to admit she has been doing this."

- "Absence Makes the Heart Go Yonder: Near the end of Crisis Core, a letter from Aerith tells Zack she's sent him 89 letters with no reply, is no longer sure where to send them after four years with no word, and she won't be writing any more. Not exactly a Dear John, but the general implication is that she's given up on him by then."

I fail to see what Cloud's resemblance to Zack and the date scene have to do with this being assumption. Just because Cloud reminded Aerith of Zack does not mean she still held feelings for him. In fact it's just the opposite, if she was willing to flirt with and ask Cloud on a date then obviously her feelings for Zack have faded, that she's pursuing another man now.
MrDeath
07:44:34 AM Mar 9th 2011
I seem to remember it being stated either in the game or somewhere else that Aerith was attracted to Cloud because Cloud had taken on Zack's persona. If you're going on a date with one guy specifically because he reminds you of the other guy, that means the feelings haven't faded.
Epyon
04:41:38 PM Jul 24th 2011
I'm pretty sure she promised the guy a date in exchange of keeping her save from a lifetime of scientific experimentation, but maybe I'm remembering it wrong. She said Cloud does remind her of Zack but she never offers that as the reasons for why she hangs out with him.
Arawn444
11:38:16 PM Mar 14th 2013
edited by Arawn444
Regarding Aerith's feelings for Cloud, in one of the novellas it reveals that Aerith kept Tifa from succumbing to Mako Poisoning after she fell into the Lifestream along with Cloud, and after watching Tifa help Cloud piece his psyche together she fell in love with Cloud again - the real Cloud, not the shadow of Zack - but realized she could't be with him because she was dead and he was still alive, hence her Shipper on Deck attitude towards him and Tifa in Advent Children. And then there's the fact that she and Zack are Together in Death, although whether they resumed their relationship is unknown.
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