So this being editlocked kinda makes it hard to update with the new lancer huh
Okay, about the Scathach debate. I personally feel it's quite clear that their relationship is romantic/sexual in nature. I mean, if nothing else, Scathach's thing is sleeping with worthy warriors and there aren't any worthier than Cu in her eyes. He also ogles her swimsuit version.
Hide / Show Replies
What, exactly, is the line that the entry refers to?
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
In FGO Material II her profile states facts on her such as relationship with her master and other characters. In regards to Cu it states:
“Cu Chulainn: Her former favorite pupil. There seems to be a part of her that sees him as a member of the opposite sex. However, she stubbornly retains her role as “teacher.” In truth, although she thinks him killing her = wanting to be saved, she also thinks he can’t really do it, so she isn’t that serious.”
So it’s doesn’t mention about her sleeping with him but still romantic in nature.
Edited by BlazingTrolls
So it's like Unresolved Sexual Tension or something, that is assumming they never had sex in this continuity. Which is highly unlikely, this is the Nasuverse, and they are Irish. Mentor Ship for the win.
Basically yeah it’s Word of God saying they havn’t had sex, so somthing like UST. On a side note,i also wasn’t aware you could have “former favorite pupils”. It seems to to also be stating nothing willl happen between them. Also what does them being Irish have to to Do with it?
I think it’s safe to get rid of the disscused entery if the topic creator still wants to.
Edited by BlazingTrolls
The context of, "[Scathach] stubbornly retains her role as “teacher”"after her profile basically states that, in her eyes, Cu Chulainn is a worthy fuck buddy, seems to imply that she's being Tsundere towards him.
As for the "former favourite pupil" thing, well, don't think too hard about it. I think it simply means that Cu stopped being her student after she taught him everything she knew and they went their separate ways.
Edited by HarasserVonAssgrab
Err that’s not exactly how I interpret it, but you guys are sure caught up on the whole fuck buddy thing huh? As for her being Tsundere that’s already established.
With the “former favorate pupil” it’s seems her master is the current. It also mentions something about her having “ unusually strong feelings” towards them, but I haven’t seen anything like that in game.
Welp I’ve put in my two cents, I’ll leave it to topic creator to decide about the entery.
I'd like Enjin to at least come in and offer his own side of the argument before we do anything. If he doesn't show up within a day or so I'll just cut the entry.
Regardless of whether it's an example, it is a poorly written one that doesn't actually fit the trope. I say cut it now and he wants to add an actual example, can do it here.
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Okay, my issue with your edits are as follows:
- Almighty Janitor: I don't think this applies because Servants aren't actually 'ranked' like that. He's a demigod and considered a pretty high tier Servant. Almighty Janitor is more like how Shirou is a terrible magus and will never amount to anything at the Mage's Association, but is an expert fighter that will end up on par with Kiritsugu, a specialized assassin.
- Always Someone Better: This trope has nothing to do with gameplay, only emotions. Scathach is just stronger than he is as far as story goes, which he comments on. That he has a gameplay niche that's valuable even in high difficulty quests is not the point.
- Stone Wall: His offenses are low even compared to other three star Lancers. Jaguarman and Hozoin have much better offensive capabilities. He has no skills that boost his damage, so he can't match up to offensively specialized Servants at his own tier.
- Super-Reflexes: Protection from Arrows only applies to ranged attacks. It doesn't apply to melee. I don't know why you changed that. It's even in the name. Also, since when was he immune to Ea, which is what you're calling Enuma Elish? Have you read FSN or are you getting this information second hand? He states that ranged attacks don't work on him unless they're 'a great noble phantasm.' We don't know what he means by that, but Ea is about as great as you can get. Also, it doesn't protect him from explosions.
- Throw the Dog a Bone: Cu has a very good showing in FSN, FHA and Extra. He even does pretty well for himself in Extella. Carnival Phantasm is a gag series and should not be considered to be his defining characterization.
1. I already made (or tried to make) my point. In this game at least, Cu proves that his star rating has no correlation to his actual performance in gameplay, just as Shirou proves how an underdog magus can slice a Greek demigod like a banana by frying his own brain.
2. Then you should delete every entry and trope on these character pages that have nothing to do with gameplay if that's your problem, don't you think?. It might take you a while though.
3. And again. His attack is rather mediocre outside his NP and the occasional crit, yes, it's his toolkit what makes his a Stone Wall. As you said, he's got a dodge, a self-revive, and a self-debuff with a small heal, which with Master support is often enough to keep him alive when should't be. Nothing too fancy, but it works.
4. You're pretty dense aren't you. In gameplay, in THIS GAME, FGO, Protection From Arrows allows Cu to dodge melee and ranged attacks while it lasts, from trash mobs and stage bosses alike; go figure. It's name is clearly non-indicative to its función in-lore, as shown in the original VAN (which I read) and its adaptations. Also, in gameplay, Cu with this skill recently activated can somehow "dodge" NP nukes like Gilgamesh's Enuma Elish and multi-hitting attacks like UBW unless his PFA is overloaded in the same turn it's used.
5. Did Jesus ever suck dick for food stamps?
1.That should probably go since its just refering to his rarity and not a position.
2.Could stay but the note can be remove.
3. Dont know if he a proper stone wall.
4. Dont know if its the trope itself or how its worded, but i think it can stay.
5. Can be removed since its only dealing with a series that parody itself.
Edited by WhirlRX
The theme behind Brynhildr's Beloved may be heroic men, but my count out of the 36 Servants tagged such only about half could be considered really interested in justice or anything. The Servants tagged with the trait are shown here
and as you can see, there are numerous murderers, bandits and tyrants. Iskander, Gilgamesh, Ushiwakamaru, Beowulf, Robin Hood, Kiritsugu, King Hassan, Berserker but not Lancer Vlad, Mozart, Waver, Cu Alter etc.
If I remember the Nasu interview/blog post/whatever it was where he explained the trait correctly, the characters on the list are people who have traits she sees as "heroic", which more than likely means "people she can see some of Sigurd in". I am assuming Sigurd is similar to Siegfried and therefore Arthur and EMIYA
What I am getting at is that all of the characters on the list are people who are determined and driven people who will suffer/have suffered in fighting for their dreams. Now that doesn't mean that all of those characters are unquestionably Good aligned Heroes, but there is a tendency towards it. Going over your examples
- Iskandar was strongly motivated to continue conquering and to finally see Okeanos, he has the drive and the will to fit in with my description.
- CASTER Gilgamesh was a king who finally accepted his responsibilities and went beyond what anyone could've expected of him during the Babylon Chapter. Unlike Archer Gil, who is quite frankly an arrogant asshole who picks and chooses which aspects of his royal position suit him while ignoring others. Archer Gil's absence from this list is quite telling imo.
- I am not familiar enough with Ushiwakamaru's character to say anything on her other than that I think she could fit the traits I described? She is a bit of an outlier regardless. I have a sneaking suspicion that she was genderswapped after the list of characters with this trait was finalized, but I have no proof so I'm not gonna go into that.
- Beowulf, northern european (usually) Saber class Hero. Without reading up on his FGO portrayal and with my passing knowledge of his story I can see that he fits the description I gave.
- Robin Hood and Kiritsugu are on here for the same reason EMIYA and Siegfried are. They are all very similar characters.
- King Hassan has the determination, drive and dream to fit in here. He is the closest thing we have to a stretch to fit in here though I will admit.
- Lancer Vlad is not on here because his personality just... doesn't fit in with the rest. His personality is different enough from Berserker Vlad (or more appropriately, Apocrypha Vlad) to disqualify him from here.
- Mozart may be self admitted human trash, but he has the loyalty, and willingness to suffer for what he believes in to fit in just fine here.
- Waver, not so sure about Zhuge Liang right now, but Waver Velvet is similar enough to Iskandar that without doing a character analysis on him I can say that he fits here.
- Cu Alter is here because Cu is here. And Cu fits in here no problem. Unlike almost all other alternate class variants we have, Cu, Caster Cu and Berserker Cu are the same character summoned into different circumstances, as opposed to being pulled from different parts of their life or Alternate Universes.
Edited by EnjinSosei
Iskandar self identities as a selfish tyrant. And no, this is not heroic self deprecation, Alexander was kind of a butcher and even his stated motivations are just conquering and killing just because he wants to.
Caster Gilgamesh is a good king, but justice doesn't come into it, really. And later you say that Cu Alter being Cu is enough to qualify him, so why isn't Archer Gilgamesh here?
Ushi is psychotic. She takes heads and ears and stuff as trophies and plans to bully and then kill the fake Benkei.
Beowulf is a thrill seeker. He just wants a good fight.
Robin Hood is a bandit who will never fight directly if he can help it. He poisons, sabotages and shoots people in the back. Kiritsugu as a Servant is even edgier than normal. He hates justice.
King Hassan just lives to kill Hassans who stray from the path.
Lancer Vlad is way more into justice, honor and devotion than Berserker Vlad, even if he is a bit nutty. Berserker Vlad is a bloodsucking vampire.
Being an arguably good person is not the same as being a person of justice. Mozart doesn't care about justice. He's pretty easy going.
Waver is kind of a dick.
Cu Alter is definitely a dick and an asshole who shoots people in the back. Also, you said Lancer Vlad doesn't count and implied the same for Archer Gilgamesh, so why would Cu Alter count?
The people who qualify are arbitrary. Yeah, there's a loose theme that applies to about half the Servants, but the rest don't really have any kind of pattern to them.
Bah, linebreaks don't work here.
Edited by Arha
I didn't mention justice once in my reply. I went over the type of personality traits everyone I know well enough on the list have. And the ones I am not comfortable saying "yes they definitely have these traits" I am fairly certain do.
I feel the theme is strong enough for a pattern so long as you don't decide to boil them to the parts of their personalities that make them different from each other.
Robin Hood and Kerry are both highly similar to EMIYA in personality, and therefore similar to Siegfried, and therefore similar to Sigurd.
King Hassan is the original Hassan and follows a strict code. He is a knightly figure, if a Lawful Evil version of that idea.
Berserker Vlad still keeps his noble bearing, something his lancer counterpart lacks. His madness is accepting his imposed vampirism while simultaneously loathing it.
I don't see how calling Waver a dick fits in with your argument.
Cu Alter counts because he is noticeably the same Cu Chulainn as his Lancer and Caster self with an extra layer of nihilistic self-loathing and depression. He doesn't lose the loyal dedicated aspect of his personality, it is merely refocused in this "Mad King" persona Medb imposed on him.
Caster Gil literally works himself to death in Babylon out of a sense of duty to his people. Archer Gil has no such sense of responsibility or drive to follow a cause.
In addition, I managed to dig up the interview where Nasu explains the trait:
4Gamer: [...] So next, I’d like to ask about the special damage bonuses. That’s a mechanic that heavily influences your tactics throughout the game, so I’d like to hear more about them. For example, what about Brynhildr’s “beloved”?
Nasu: “Brynhildr’s beloved” simply refers to those who fit Brynhildr’s definition of “a righteous person.”
4Gamer: A righteous person?
Nasu: Not the general definition of being righteous, but a hero who fits Brynhildr’s definition of “righteousness.” So if someone righteous like Tony Stark from Iron Man shows up, she might say, “I don’t feel anything… He must be evil.” (laughs) So if you can figure out what “beloved” means, you can also figure out Brynhildr’s definition of righteousness, as well as her preferences.
4Gamer: I see. In other words, that’s something that players who figured it out can giggle about.
Edited by EnjinSosei
Robin Hood, Kiritsugu and Emiya are all very different unless you mean they're all pragmatic, in which case the one trait that links them together is the one that should turn Bryn off.
If it's just about following a strict code, then why aren't the other Hassans on here?
Yeah, his noble bearing as he wants to suck your blood and murder you.
Because Waver doesn't really care about fair play or anything.
Yes he does. Cu Alter views himself as a tool at your disposal. He literally shoots people in the back. Where is the noble man of honor in that?
Also, if you're going by that interview, then the entry should say something like 'The trait is applied to Servants that Brynhildr views as being righteous figures, meaning it applies to a largely arbitrary list of Servants ranging from noble knights to vicious assassins in roughly equal measures.'
Robin Hood was clearly written to parallel Archer EMIYA, even a passing examination of their storylines and interactions in Extra can tell you that.
Archer EMIYA is following the ideals he received from Emiya Kiritsugu and devolved into using his methods while a Counter Guardian. There is a reason EMIYA has the Generation Xerox trope on his fsn Servant page.
It is not JUST about following a code, but it is part of it. King Hassan is there because of, once again, his drive and determination to pursue his goals, no matter the cost to himself. He is there to take the heads of the Hassans that falter in their tasks, for they are not as dedicated as he is. He gives up his position of Grand Assassin for the sake of defeating Tiamat and preventing the end of the world.
You do realise there is more to Vlad's character than "is a bloodsucking vampire" right?
Cu and his variants (except protocu) are characters I have looked into extensively, and he remains extremely loyal even in this altered state. Why do you think he keeps serving Medb, the woman responsible for his death? Because he was summoned as her Servant and therefore is loyal to her. He is a Mad King because that is the role he was summoned into, just like how Caster Cu decides to go Full Druid because he was summoned as a Caster. He is still the same Cu Chulainn as before, just playing a different role. He is the villain and he knows it, and despite being absolutely miserable in that role, he is sure as hell gonna try his best to be the best damn villain he could possibly be. The "noble man of honor" in shooting people in the back that is that he is obeying the commands of his summoner and fulfilling the role he was summoned into. Because that is what Cu Chulainn does.
The list is only arbitrary if you insist on simplifying each character to their professions rather then their personalities, ideals and goals and how they pursue them. There IS a pattern there, even if you can't see it. Brynhildr has a clear type, and what defines that type is far from arbitrary.
And for whatever her flaws may be, girl has good taste.
No he wasn't. Robin was written to show the problems that come when you have a large disconnect between Master and Servant. Dan wanted to be an honorable knight and fight from the front for once while Robin is all about poison and sabotage.
Emiya's actions are similar to Kiritsugu, but their personalities and motivations are totally different. If you ignore those then you might as well throw any murderer into the mix.
You don't see Cu Alter's dishonorable behavior? How he differs from the original? Yeah, at his core he's still Cu, but he's no 'man of justice' or anything like that. Kiritsugu isn't either. Kiritsugu was never trying to be any such thing. Kiritsugu hates the idea of justified violence. His methods and behavior are also extremely screwed up even if you accept his utilitarian ethics. Like how do you justify cheating on your wife with the war orphan you brought up to be a tool?
Yes, there's more to Vlad than that, but the parts of his personality that would make him a man of justice and conviction are much more apparent in his Lancer form. You seem to have played Extra and the game was rather misleading with him. He was playing up the insanity angle to stay close to Ronnie. Halloween 2016 made it clear he's very passionate about purging evil and even accepting that all men can find redemption apart from him.
Also, you're ignoring Beowulf, Ushi, Iskander, Mozart and so on. They are in no way great men of justice, honor or anything like that. I can see how they tried to set up a pattern but there are far too many outliers to say it's really meaningful. Thus, Bryn's taste includes heroes like that and also murderers, thrill junkies and brutal tyrants.
What is your hangup on "justice"? I never once brought that up as a requirement. The trait I see them have in common is that they all have an ideal/dream/goal and the willpower and dedication to strive towards it despite hardships. Even the outliers you bring up have those. A strong sense of justice is not a requirement, but it is an ideal that several of these characters have dedicated themselves to.
In Robin's case, the thing you bring up isn't mutually exclusive to what I brought up you know? His backstory has him selflessly protect a village from a lord's tyranny only to be betrayed by them and executed. Very similarly to how EMIYA and Siegfried's lives ended after trying to be selfless heroes.
At the same time what you say is also correct, he is also meant display a dysfunctional master/servant relationship and how badly that can go. HOWEVER Robin says shortly before his death in Extra that he deep down wanted to have the chance to fight like "a badass knight", something he never had the chance to do so in life. And is grateful of his Master for giving him that chance.
Yes, Cu Alter does partake in some behavior that is dishonorable, no question about it. But this was never about honor. This was about his drive to follow his principles even if he hates what they make him do. So yes, he does plenty of dishonorable things, because that is what he thinks Evil Kings do. Because that is the role he is summoned into.
I assume we'll have to agree to disagree I guess, because I am just repeating myself at this point.
The page was nicely alphabetized but has been reverted to an order which is pretty much arbitrary. I don't understand the reason for this. Could you please explain?
Hide / Show Replies
The same seems to have been done to the other alphabetized FGO pages too.
Yeah, we talked about it on the main FGO character discussion page and it seems like he organized them like that temporarily for reasons I don't really understand but after he's finished with the Berserker page they can be alphabetized again.
Upon close inspection, it seems Romulus' profile calls him the King of Nation Founding. I'm just wondering whether this should be treated the same way as the rest of the different Kings running around or not...
Hide / Show Replies
I'd wait to see how Nasu and the others treat him in that regard, personally.
I wondering if Bradamante can be considered a Stone Wall(15000 hp with a 3 turn def and guts) or a Lightning Bruiser(10000+ atk with BAAQQ deck with increase of Arts and Quick for three turns).