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LordCrayak
topic
04:00:51 AM Jul 10th 2013
Could the DNA Digivolutions get their own section? All the tropes relating to them could be in one place, instead of awkwardly split between the beings that make them up. The same could be done for the Biomerges on the Tamers page, and Susanoomon on the Frontier page.
LordCrayak
01:45:03 PM Jul 15th 2013
Any imput?
azraelfinalstar
12:16:57 PM Jul 18th 2013
I'm all for it. Of course we'd have to do the same thing for Omnimon on Adventure. Not so sure about the Bio-merges though
Catbert
topic
02:32:09 PM Jan 29th 2013

This trope has been replaced with an index full of Bunny Tropes. Please pick which specific trope if any applies to this example.
Oreochan
topic
08:40:21 PM Oct 27th 2012
Pulled:

  • Adult Child: "Boys and girls, boys and girls, let's go to the Digital World!"

Adult Child has been renamed to One of the Kids. In order for this to be an example of the trope, the character's childishness has to be from or demonstrated by interacting with children. This example can be added back with context relevant to the trope if it fits.
LeithSol
topic
01:36:57 AM Jan 24th 2012
In the interest of not starting a editing war I bring my disagreements here.

First off, Flat Character and Hidden Depths are not mutually exclusive characteristics. In dead, it is easier for a flat character to have hidden depths as they are less assuming. That said, Daisuke is a flat character. Daisuke only has a few character traits, and is lacking in depth. Lets not forget that Tropes Are Not Bad. Daisuke may be a flat character, but that let him really open up for the last episode.

Next lets look at the Hidden Depths example more closely.

* Hidden Depths: In the beginning of the series, Daisuke is introduced as brash, headstrong, and slightly insensitive. He constantly argues with Miyako and his sister Jun, shows a petty and jealous side when it comes to Hikari, and in comparison to Takeru and Hikari, is constantly proven wrong about the Digital World. For all that, he values his friends and would do anything to help them. Still, his real kindness only becomes fully apparent once Ken stops being the Kaiser.

All of this only points out Daisuke's Jerk with a Heart of Gold tendencies, which are very apparent and not at all hidden.

For all his flaws, Daisuke is incredibly forgiving, and perceptive in ways that almost none of the characters pick up on until much later.

Once again, Daisuke is not incredibly forgiving. Daisuke only forgives people once he understands why they did X thing, and only on his terms.

For example, it wasnít for his faith in Kenís redemption, itís probable that the rest of the group would have never accepted him. His perseverance is also what saves the group from the final villain.

These are examples of Daisuke being a determinator, and once again are not hidden or unexpected characteristics.

As far as I can see, this example fails to show any hidden or unexpected characteristics in Daisuke, and there is no reason not to deleted it. I will leave things as is for now, so that people can respond, but not forever.

Coriolis
06:11:32 AM Jan 24th 2012
Hi, thanks for starting a discussion here.

First off, Flat Character and Hidden Depths are not mutually exclusive characteristics.

I agree with this. I donít believe that itís necessarily easier for a flat character to have hidden depths, but hey, youíre entitled to your opinion.

Iím going to have to disagree in this respect: Daisuke has more to his character than you seem to give him credit for. He isnít the most complex of the Chosen Children, but he is developed through his interactions with the rest of the cast, which show different sides of his personality.

All of this only points out Daisuke's Jerk With A Heart Of Gold tendencies, which are very apparent and not at all hidden.

Yes. The above is a description of his surface qualities. His reaction to the other kids being ďtrappedĒ by the Kaiser is, however, not immediately apparent. In that scene, instead of going ahead and saving Hikari (who he has a crush on; in contrast to Takeru, Miyako, and Iori, who he squabbles with) or instantly attacking the Kaiser, he chooses to put himself on the line. Itís the first time that the series shows him valuing all his teammates equally, and notable for suggesting that, hey, maybe heís in this for more than getting Hikariís attention and Taichiís respect.

Once again, Daisuke is not incredibly forgiving. Daisuke only forgives people once he understands why they did X thing, and only on his terms.

I disagree with this very much.

These are examples of Daisuke being a determinator, and once again are not hidden or unexpected characteristics.

I donít think that his befriending Ken falls strictly into the Determinator trope.

LeithSol
10:03:23 PM Jan 24th 2012
edited by LeithSol
I agree with this. I donít believe that itís necessarily easier for a flat character to have hidden depths, but hey, youíre entitled to your opinion.

That's not my opinion, that is straight from the Tvtropes entry of Flat Character.

Iím going to have to disagree in this respect: Daisuke has more to his character than you seem to give him credit for. He isnít the most complex of the Chosen Children, but he is developed through his interactions with the rest of the cast, which show different sides of his personality.

And how does this differ from any other main chosen child? Daisuke does not have a back story the way that Ken or Iori has. He does not have a character arc the way that Ken or Iori have. He does not face a challenge that being a determinator does not solve. Daisuke is deliberately undeveloped through out the season. Daisuke apparently does not have any desires at all. In short, Daisuke does not have much if any Character Depth. What else can be said about a character that slightest change in behavior has fans calling ooc?

Yes. The above is a description of his surface qualities. His reaction to the other kids being ďtrappedĒ by the Kaiser is, however, not immediately apparent. In that scene, instead of going ahead and saving Hikari (who he has a crush on; in contrast to Takeru, Miyako, and Iori, who he squabbles with) or instantly attacking the Kaiser, he chooses to put himself on the line. Itís the first time that the series shows him valuing all his teammates equally, and notable for suggesting that, hey, maybe heís in this for more than getting Hikariís attention and Taichiís respect.

Episode 8 is an one off, not unlike episode 13. The same thing can be said about Satoru Nishizono's only episode that can be said about Chiaki J. Konaka's. Only one point was kept from the two episodes and the rest thrown away. For episode 13 it was the dark ocean for episode 8 is was that Ken was the Kaiser. Nothing else of episode 8 is carried on. The other fact to be aware of is that sacrificing himself would not have saved the other chosen children, as there would be nothing to stop the Digimon Kaiser from having the other chosen children killed after Daisuke was dead.

I am going to re-answerer this one. For example, it wasnít for his faith in Kenís redemption, itís probable that the rest of the group would have never accepted him.

Daisuke trusted Ken even before he started redeeming himself. And the other chosen children felt that they needed to give Ken time, not that they did not believe in his redemption. Each of the chosen children learn to trust Ken on there own, starting with Miyako in episode 25, even before Ken and Daisuke did the Jogress hearts as one thing. Also It is a determinator trait to have convinced someone just by having faith in another thing.
TheTropeEater
10:47:52 PM Jan 28th 2012
To add on to that Daisuke never actually convinced the other kids to trust Ken(every time he tried it backfired), Ken did that on his own when he proved to them that he wanted to change. They couldn't trust Daisuke's opinion on the matter because they had no idea where it came from, and Daisuke started expressing it, before Ken started showing it. However, Daisuke didn't understand (or rather didn't want or try to understand why the other kids thought this way).

The episode when the others were captured is not a sign of Daisuke's "Hidden Depths" as the decision he made was very rash, and without much thought, or serious consideration. As Takuya his fellow Expy actually put some thought into what was going on, when faced with a similar situation. What Daisuke did in this episode was reckless, even though Daisuke means well, he's an idiot, and doesn't think before he acts, but luckily is surrounded by hyper competent allies who soften the blow for him, and he's wearing plot armor.

Remember Daisuke only started to believe in Ken because of a plot coupon, not because he tried to understand Ken himself (Daisuke just wanted to beat Ken), said plot coupon was also given to Daisuke on his own terms. So the Ken incident isn't at all the an example Daisuke being understanding as it was the plot not the character himself. For an example of Daisuke inability to understand others look at his interaction with Takeru, Daisuke along with the other new chosen children learns about what they went through, but does Daisuke become more respectful to Takeru? Is he more understanding of him? No, he isn't.
Coriolis
01:09:52 AM Feb 2nd 2012
That's not my opinion, that is straight from the Tvtropes entry of Flat Character.

It says that formerly Flat Characters are fleshed out using a variety of narrative devices, one of which is Hidden Depths. That does not mean that a character who already has more development is incapable of demonstrating Hidden Depths as well.

Daisuke does not have a back story the way that Ken or Iori has. He does not have a character arc the way that Ken or Iori have.

He does have a backstory. Rather, he has a background — it just so happens to be pretty ordinary, unlike Iori or Ken's. He's a member of the same soccer club as Taichi, his upperclassman, he's an elementary schooler at Odaiba, he doesn't get along terribly well with his older sister at home, and he has a gigantic crush on Hikari. And that's fine. It doesn't have to be anything convoluted. The same goes for his character arc. He may not have as much depth (or the kind of depth) as you want, but either way, he has more character definition than a Flat Character would have.

Episode 8 is an one off, not unlike episode 13. The same thing can be said about Satoru Nishizono's only episode that can be said about Chiaki J. Konaka's. Only one point was kept from the two episodes and the rest thrown away.

No. Episode 8 falls right into continuity and the main plot line. How can you even compare it to episode 13, with its significantly-creepier-than-average Lovecraft homage?

The other fact to be aware of is that sacrificing himself would not have saved the other chosen children, as there would be nothing to stop the Digimon Kaiser from having the other chosen children killed after Daisuke was dead.

Yes, which doesn't negate a single thing shown about Daisuke's personality in that scene.

Daisuke trusted Ken even before he started redeeming himself.

Yes, and...? Technically, Ken was the last of the kids to forgive himself.

And the other chosen children felt that they needed to give Ken time, not that they did not believe in his redemption.

Iori was heavily against working with Ken at first, and held no small amount of distrust and resentment. Miyako was very uncertain. (Even in the episode where Ken seals off Demon to the Dark Ocean, she's the very last to join the group and grab onto his hands. She certainly didn't have full trust in him by episode 25.) Takeru and Hikari are more ambiguous, but they take a while to come around as well — for example, Takeru believes early on that Ken has changed, but isn't completely in favor of him joining the team either. In contrast, Daisuke was unconditionally accepting of Ken.

Also It is a determinator trait to have convinced someone just by having faith in another thing.

I'm not completely sure what you're trying to say here. Certainly, Daisuke is a Determinator, but are you saying that the kindness he showed is a direct result of fitting that trope as well?
Coriolis
01:52:36 AM Feb 2nd 2012

To add on to that Daisuke never actually convinced the other kids to trust Ken(every time he tried it backfired), Ken did that on his own when he proved to them that he wanted to change.

If Daisuke had never extended a direct line of friendship to Ken, Ken would have continued to work on his own, and the other kids would have most likely continued to let him do that. If Daisuke had never made that connection and become his Jogress partner, Ken would not have been around the other Chosen Children so often, thereby giving him the chance to prove he was sincere about making up for what he had done.

That doesn't sound like Daisuke was ineffectual to me.

They couldn't trust Daisuke's opinion on the matter because they had no idea where it came from, and Daisuke started expressing it, before Ken started showing it.

No, they didn't have direct contact with Ken as soon as Daisuke did. And Takeru did understand on some level what Daisuke was saying, but still had reservations about it.

However, Daisuke didn't understand (or rather didn't want or try to understand why the other kids thought this way).

He didn't understand why they didn't believe Ken was a good guy? I'm not so sure about that — he admits that it's a weird thing to think when he's vouching for Ken, but he stands by his gut instincts nonetheless. And he's vocal about it.

The episode when the others were captured is not a sign of Daisuke's "Hidden Depths" as the decision he made was very rash, and without much thought, or serious consideration.

That scene clearly shows him thinking of everyone in the team and their safety. That counts as serious consideration, even if it's not the smartest decision ever. A more rash decision would have been to, say, attack the Kaiser without pausing for two seconds.

That said, it doesn't matter how simple Daisuke's manner of thinking is. A character doesn't have to be a complex thinker to fall under the Hidden Depths trope; it's about what it demonstrates to the audience. And reckless, brash Daisuke making a decision that prioritizes his teammates (even the ones he doesn't get along with!) over just the girl he likes or his own survival counts as that.

Remember Daisuke only started to believe in Ken because of a plot coupon, not because he tried to understand Ken himself (Daisuke just wanted to beat Ken)

Because it's not like kid's shows ever use magical items or forces to externalize something about a character's inner nature, right?

So the Ken incident isn't at all the an example Daisuke being understanding as it was the plot not the character himself.

I think my position is pretty obvious here, but I disagree.

For an example of Daisuke inability to understand others look at his interaction with Takeru, Daisuke along with the other new chosen children learns about what they went through, but does Daisuke become more respectful to Takeru? Is he more understanding of him? No, he isn't.

Please elaborate. FWIW, Daisuke does consider Takeru a friend.
TheTropeEater
12:00:13 PM Feb 2nd 2012
edited by TheTropeEater
He does have a backstory. Rather, he has a background ó it just so happens to be pretty ordinary, unlike Iori or Ken's. He's a member of the same soccer club as Taichi, his upperclassman, he's an elementary schooler at Odaiba, he doesn't get along terribly well with his older sister at home, and he has a gigantic crush on Hikari. And that's fine. It doesn't have to be anything convoluted. The same goes for his character arc. He may not have as much depth (or the kind of depth) as you want, but either way, he has more character definition than a Flat Character would have.

Actually Daisuke does not have a back story, like Iori or Ken. All we know about Daisuke is that he has an older sister that he doesn't get along with nothing more nothing less. The stuff you're mentioning isn't a backstory that was just there to provide the similarities to Taichi, however, it does not it does not tell us anything about his character. There fore it isn't something that one can consider a back story.

It says that formerly Flat Characters are fleshed out using a variety of narrative devices, one of which is Hidden Depths. That does not mean that a character who already has more development is incapable of demonstrating Hidden Depths as well.

A flat character can also be a static character. The trope only says that flat characters CAN be fleshed out, using hidden depths, not that they always are. But the minute they are fleshed out then they are no longer flat characters, but rounded ones, however Daisuke does not fit the description of a rounded character. By definition a flat character is "A flat character is one that only has the bare minimum number of characteristics necessary to make them interesting enough to carry off their purpose." Daisuke by the admition of the creators was never fleshed out, what we saw was all that was there.

No. Episode 8 falls right into continuity and the main plot line. How can you even compare it to episode 13, with its significantly-creepier-than-average Lovecraft homage?

Actually episode 8 was just a throw-away episode, while 13 was made with the intention of introducing a new storyline (which was dropped due to executive meddling). So yeah it holds more weight than episode 8.

Yes, which doesn't negate a single thing shown about Daisuke's personality in that scene.

However, the personality that was shown was not a hidden depth, nor was it any different from his determinator, and Reckless personality that was shown before hand. Daisuke was outright stated to have a good heart, however, he is stupid, stubborn, doesn't think he acts, jealous, reckless, and is a bit of a jerk. All that scene was showing was three previously established points of his personality, not a new one.

Iori was heavily against working with Ken at first, and held no small amount of distrust and resentment. Miyako was very uncertain. (Even in the episode where Ken seals off Demon to the Dark Ocean, she's the very last to join the group and grab onto his hands. She certainly didn't have full trust in him by episode 25.) Takeru and Hikari are more ambiguous, but they take a while to come around as well ó for example, Takeru believes early on that Ken has changed, but isn't completely in favor of him joining the team either. In contrast, Daisuke was unconditionally accepting of Ken.

That's because of how Ken had behaved beforehand, also Ken understood why Iori was behaving that way, and didn't blame them for it. You need to remember that Daisuke only got to understand Ken because of Dues Ex Machina which wasn't given to other children. Daisuke didn't know anything about Ken and didn't learn anything about him until the other kids did. Yo need to remember that None of the new kids (even Daisuke) knew anything about Ken beforehand.

Yes, and...? Technically, Ken was the last of the kids to forgive himself.

Daisuke trusted Ken before Ken even tried to change, or showed any interest in changing, that's why no one took his word for it, and the point still stands.

TheTropeEater
08:02:16 PM Feb 2nd 2012
If Daisuke had never extended a direct line of friendship to Ken, Ken would have continued to work on his own, and the other kids would have most likely continued to let him do that. If Daisuke had never made that connection and become his Jogress partner, Ken would not have been around the other Chosen Children so often, thereby giving him the chance to prove he was sincere about making up for what he had done.

Even after Ken became Daisuke's joggress character, even when Daisuke extended his hand. Ken didn't didn't join, he only came around them due to the circumstances (destroying dark towers, stopping Arukenimon and Mummymon, protecting the digital world) which was all a part of his will to change. Those same circumstances proved to the team that he was willing to change. He didn't actually join them until after Iori had agreed to him being there. Which again Daisuke had nothing to do with. The person who convinced Miyako was Mimi, and the person who convinced Iori was Ken, Hikari and Takeru were already willing to give him a chance, because Takeru had already partially convinced Hikari. So Daisuke was still ineffectual at convincing the others.

No, they didn't have direct contact with Ken as soon as Daisuke did. And Takeru did understand on some level what Daisuke was saying, but still had reservations about it.

At that point in the series, Daisuke didn't really know anything about Ken either, his only direct contact with Ken was as an enemy, Daiske only had contact with Wormmon. Takeru actually talked to Ken so he had a reasonable reason to believe that the way Ken wasn't how he really was. So your point whether you know it or not extends to Daisuke as well. As he never had any real interaction with Ken either.

He didn't understand why they didn't believe Ken was a good guy? I'm not so sure about that ó he admits that it's a weird thing to think when he's vouching for Ken, but he stands by his gut instincts nonetheless. And he's vocal about it.

The fact that he keeps pushing it, shows that he doesn't understand. Actions speak louder than words. Again it wasn't gut instinct it was a plot coupon which provided that.

That scene clearly shows him thinking of everyone in the team and their safety. That counts as serious consideration, even if it's not the smartest decision ever. A more rash decision would have been to, say, attack the Kaiser without pausing for two seconds.

Which again just show that Daisuke has a good heart a previously established trait, it was also mixing in his recklessness, and stupidity with it. A combination of these three traits would make any idiot with a good heart do what Daisuke did (as has been true with many different series in any medium). His reaction isn't abnormal for a character with his personality traits. Actually his behavior in episode 13 mirrors this as he just wanted to jump head first into the digital world, because he thought that that was where Hikari was (despite being outright told that she wasn't). Therefore it was not a hidden depth.

That said, it doesn't matter how simple Daisuke's manner of thinking is. A character doesn't have to be a complex thinker to fall under the Hidden Depths trope; it's about what it demonstrates to the audience. And reckless, brash Daisuke making a decision that prioritizes his teammates (even the ones he doesn't get along with!) over just the girl he likes or his own survival counts as that.

Do you read the tropes description? Or are you so concerned with having Daisuke look good that you don't care to read them. Hidden Depths is... "This is not so much a character type being subverted as it is getting Character Development in unexpected directions. Much like Playing Against Type, it can be something that seemingly goes against the character type, or combines two different, seemingly opposite roles or characters into one more Round Character. The talent or quirk is rarely impossible for the character to have, just unexpected: people aren't just their job or surface personality after all." Daisuke was already shown to have the trait of being a Jerkwitha Heartof Gold, back from episode 1. None of that was happening in episode 8.

Also for future reference sake, Nishizono (the head writer for Adventure), and was not apart of the central planning for 02 at all (he didn't not even want 02 to be made which was why he left the adventure project). He was merely a guest writer for one episode. However, he is not to be compared with Konaka's episode 13 which was planned to lead into a larger arc (the fact that the dark ocean shows up again and again should have tipped you off to this), and Konaka was already planned to make the sequel to 02 (which was what Tamers was originally going to be). Therefore unlike episode 13 (which did introduce a new concept that was used and built up upon, contrary to popular belief amongst 02 fans) 8 is really the one off episode, not meant to be thought about too much.

Because it's not like kid's shows ever use magical items or forces to externalize something about a character's inner nature, right?

Doesn't change the fact that his show did (or make it any less of an example of bad writing). And as in those instances, it isn't a reflection of the character's ability to understand another character, it was the plot.

I think my position is pretty obvious here, but I disagree.

Even though the series outright states that that is what happened. Daisuke only understood Ken because he was shown "Ken's true heart" by the digimetal of Miracles/Digimental of Kindness/ Crest of Kindness if you want to say differently then I'm afraid you're going to have to find the point in the series where something differently on this even is stated.

Please elaborate. FWIW, Daisuke does consider Takeru a friend.

I'm not too sure you understand Japanese but the way how Daisuke refers to Takeru is actually incredibly rude. Its the same way he talked about Ken before the plot stepped in. Also his way of not listening to Takeru, or considering his words (though he does that to everyone in the group but Hikari).Its something that Daisuke never stops doing even during the final episodes.
CyberXIII
12:14:25 PM Feb 7th 2012
I kinda wanna know where The Trope Eater is pulling these interviews from.

Daisuke is not a Flat Character nor is he static. It's not obvious but he changes after the first few episodes of fighitng. Compare the selfish arrogant brat from episode 3 to the episode 8 sacrifice. There's some obvious growth there. Also the hidden depths thing is double subverted if anything. While Daisuke didn't get a deep introspective arc like the others, he definitely had some development. The prideful child of the early episodes would never have had the determination needed to pull off what he did, deus ex machina or no.

The Digimental thing wasn't just the McGuffin speaking to him, it was foreshadowing their eventual jogress partnership.

The Dark Ocean is only brought up a few times and never explained in depth. It is a one shot concept that was never really built on. We only know what little we do based on the author interviews and not from the show itself. Episode 8 was the first hint to the audience about what Taichi saw in Daisuke and why he gave him his goggles.
TheTropeEater
01:52:27 PM Feb 7th 2012
edited by TheTropeEater
I'm pulling the interviews from the DVD extras where the creators outright said that Daisuke doesn't develop and they did it in order to make him a foil to Ken, who changes drastically through out the series. Therefore if you are seeing some change then its probably just you. You can also find more interviews in the probably the official book, any informed digimon forum—like With the Will, or find the writers blogs yourself—they're quite easy to find.

The writers also admitted that what you saw was really all there was, there wasn't anything else besides what you first saw (basically there are no hidden depths), though mind you this is also because the person in charge of handling Daisuke (as well as Iori and Miyako) didn't believe in it (nor did he really think having a background was important). Go back re-watch 02 and pay attention to it, Daisuke isn't ever put into a situation that forces development out of him. It was pretty much established from episode 1 that Daisuke was kind, and he did have it in him to think about others, though the very same episode had being an absolute jerk to Takeru so there you go. Taking all of Daisuke's traits into account him senselessly sacrificing himself is not out of character nor is it a new trait.

That doesn't make it any less of a McGuffin doesn't it? It also doesn't change the fact that said McGuffin was used as a short cut in order to work around not having Daisuke change himself.

Again the Dark Ocean was meant to be a subplot but it was dropped due to executive meddling, so the fact that more thought was put into it than a one-shot filler episode doesn't change. Especially since the person in charge of that episode, only wrote that one episode because he was asked to, but wasn't any part of the actual planning for the series or characters at all, due to leaving the project in protest.

FYI I didn't put up the flat character example for Daisuke, but the its likely the person who did most likely did it because Daisuke matches the description of a flat character.

Also for the record Daisuke was never shown cruel or overly selfish to begin with, he was a jerkass yes, but that was more due to jealously and stubbornness more than anything else, plus the fact that he is stupid (if him confusing a date on a calendar for a fraction didn't clue you in) and lacking in common sense. Even if you don't see it for yourself, its what's stated in his official profile released before the series even started.
Coriolis
01:34:08 PM Feb 14th 2012
edited by Coriolis
My response is substantially different from Cyber XIII's, which I'll expand on soon. Curious as to where Leith Sol is, though, since they originally started this discussion.
ijffdrie
06:59:52 PM Jul 18th 2012
Ooh, long and complicated discussion.

For context, its important to differentiate between japanese daisuke and english davis. The former is considerably ruder (especially given cultural standards) and less friendly towards teammates than the latter. You could probably say that TK and Davis are friends, but Takeru and Daisuke are not. Is there a trope for character differences differing between translations?

The weird thing about Daisuke's character development, which is present, is that it moves in the exact opposite direction you'd expect based on the events in the series. His charging right into situations gets victory after victory... so he becomes more relaxed. In episode 9, he learns that fighting is the best way to resolve disagreements(srsly, what was up with that episode)... so he becomes less agressive. Is there a trope for that?
TheTropeEater
03:14:25 PM Sep 5th 2012
Actually he didn't become calmer at all, he's pretty much still charges through everything without any thought. Case in point the final battle against the digimon digimon Kaiser, Daisuke was the most excitable and enthusiastic of the team. Then there is the episode of how he got V-mon to evolve, then he didn't know how to let up with the whole situation with Ken, leading Miyako to telling him to back off a bit. So I wouldn't say he calmed down or learned how to relax.
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