Not really. Ultron really had to die, he's too great a threat otherwise. And even so, it's not really hypocritical for him to do exactly as he was saying all along. He never once said that Ultron shouldn't be killed or anything. He's been saying that Ultron had to be completely eliminated from the outset.
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Yeah, he says Ultron has to die in the same sentence as he's saying he doesn't want to kill Ultron. He acknowledges right off the bat what has to be done. Being a hypocrite would be saying something needs to be done and then not doing it.
Once again, Easily Forgiven (the trope) is not literally about a character being forgiven by other characters, despite the name. Read the description. The trope is about characters not facing consequences proportionate to their actions, and can be from both a character or narrative perspective. It says this right on the page.
Sure, many on the team do not forgive Wanda's actions, and she did lose her brother. But that is irrelevant in this case because we still have a perfect contrast for how her consequences aren't equal: the Hulk. We are flat out told that the world is out to get Banner for his actions in Johannesburg, and he hates himself for his rampage. But, regardless of how few on the team trust or forgive Wanda, that is literally the only consequences she faces for her actions. Again, the Hulk is again wanted and hated for a rampage that she instigated. This is not something we can just trade off with "well half the Avengers still hate her and her brother died".
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Just wondering out loud here. While I agree with mostly everything that you've said, shouldn't it be Karma Houdini instead? She was a former villain under Ultron, after all. I still have some trouble figuring out the difference between it and Easily Forgiven tropes. The incident where she made the Hulk goes on rampage fits the Karma Houdini trope more, or is it?
I'm not an expert on how the tropes differ from each other, but what I gather from Karma Houdini is that the person in question not only doesn't face any consequences for his/her actions, but isn't at all repentant or willing to redeem themselves for it. At the very least, Wanda seems to have that. She does lack any proportionate consequences for her actions, though, when compared to the Hulk.
Uh huh. Maybe it's like that, I suppose. At least Wanda seems trouble by all the mess she created, so it's not totally Karma Houdini. Still, the Easily Forgiven trope definition seems to cause a lot of misunderstanding. When it comes to forgiving, most tend to think that it means the character was forgiven for whatever bad deeds that they did in the past, not about a character not getting any comeuppance for what they did (as it fitted more with Karma Houdini, in that case). At least, that's what I thought about it.
That isn't supported by the trope description. The description makes it clear that it's about consequences or repercussions, not actual forgiveness. It's a bit of a misnomer.
Reading the edit history to Easily Forgiven, this was included by Extraintrovert in 26 Jan.
Edited by MagBas
Wow. You're right. To be honest, though, I think those changes were for the better.
That being said, for the sake of completeness, it might be worth bringing this up in Trope Repair Shop, to have some sort of consensus. We should hold off on re-adding anything until we get that.
If that's where we go with it, though, someone else will have to take care of that. I'm banned from the forums.
After numerous times of reading up the definition of Easily Forgiven over and over, I think yes, maybe we should rethink about this trope usage all over together. The definition by Extraintrovert is quite clear, but still it kinds of bugging me that some of it are more in line with Karma Houdini. (The difference is that Karma Houdini cases are not regretful of their actions and get away scot-free) People often think when it comes to forgiving, it only has to apply by actions of characters in-story themselves and NOT include from the narrative sense (as if it's that it'll turn into YMMV instead) but that's just what I think about it. Personally, I think we should have a different trope page altogether for situations like this. It's not exactly Easily Forgiven nor Karma Houdini. Maybe I was wrong about it all, though...
I don't think a Karma Houdini needs to be unrepentant. Just that they're never punished. If an antihero regrets what they did, but is never punished for it, why wouldn't they qualify?
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Should Vision be considered a Hypocrite for killing Ultron? He kept saying that he didn't want to, but he did it anyway even though Vision could have taken Ultron in alive.
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