Characters A Song Of Ice And Fire House Stark Discussion

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CrimsonZephyr
Topic
01:45:04 PM Aug 24th 2015
Regarding character portraits, isn't it the policy that we limit ourselves ourselves to artworks from WOIAF and the licensed card sets only? Every now and then, someone puts on fanart of one or two of the characters. Especially the current one for Rickon, which looks out of place.
Larkmarn
01:53:41 PM Aug 24th 2015
I've been wondering that for a while myself. It seems odd.
SeptimusHeap
02:02:07 AM Aug 25th 2015
We don't have a ban on fanart on work pages, alas.
youmad
Topic
03:49:16 AM Aug 16th 2015
People need to quit adding fanfiction in the Lyanna folder, it's getting really annoying and it won't get anyone far.
Anna_Marie
04:08:48 AM Aug 16th 2015
Agreed, the first time I understood the edit, because the entry had fanon as canon and was trying really hard to create parallelisms between Sansa and Lyanna, but once the fanon was removed and all that remained were the facts, it should have stayed that way. There was no need to delete or add anything.
Anna_Marie
04:08:48 AM Aug 16th 2015
edited by Anna_Marie
DP
youmad
04:13:09 AM Aug 16th 2015
edited by youmad
And it's changed again. This is going to go on for a long time. Removing it altogether is not going to solve the problem, someone is going to edit it all again. Lyanna/Arya have actual similarities like Cat/Sansa, those should not have been removed.
Anna_Marie
04:23:39 AM Aug 16th 2015
edited by Anna_Marie
Ok, and now the whole section has been removed?? I understand changing the Sansa part, even deleting it, because it didn't really had much weight, but the Arya part? why was that one deleted? Those parallelisms are important, it goes beyond looks, is about Lyanna's personality. GRRM used the comparisons between Arya and Lyanna to explain Lyanna's personality to the reader, it shouldn't be left out because some people resents the fact that so far the canon has focus in the similarities between Arya and Lyanna and not Lyanna and Sansa

youmad
04:28:56 AM Aug 16th 2015
I'm going to edit the Arya/Lyanna parallels back as it's best that they only remain. As Anna_Marie said above, they have been deliberately written by the author.
JulianLapostat
04:31:00 AM Aug 16th 2015
Well, the fact is there is a similarity between Lyanna and Sansa, the latest chapter where Alayne and Harry Heir is an echo of what Ned remembers about Lyanna and Robert. I had added that and left it, but someone later added a bit about Lyanna liking music, which I felt was stretching it but I didn't mind. Then someone came and added more verbiage, and then someone deleted that without explanation. So either it goes to the original edit, since I added it, or I remove both.
youmad
04:36:59 AM Aug 16th 2015
No. I think the person that deleted it was right; the parallels between sansa/lyanna could be used for margaery/lyanna, as well. As long as they hold no point in the books, they should not be added. The Sansa/Cat similarities exist and have also been deliberately written by the author as same as Arya/Lyanna.
DaniLl
04:37:41 AM Aug 16th 2015
edited by DaniLl
Agreed, I was the one who started the edits, because IMO the Sansa part was giving unclear information just to show there are similarities between Sansa and Lyanna, and I changed it to fit with the canon. You either focus on the fact that both Sansa and Lyanna were going to marry a Baratheon (and for me the fact that Joffrey wasn't really one matters) or you focus on the similarities between Robert and Harry the Heir. Although he hasn't agreed to marry Sansa yet. He doesn't even know she is Sansa Stark.

And deleting Arya as Lyanna's foil was unnecessary. The similarities between Arya and Lyanna are canon and have nothing to do with any possible resemblance between Lyanna and Sansa. The explanation given after the Sansa part was removed made sense, practically all noble female characters have been set up in a political marriages, both Cersei and Margaery married Baratheons for example, but that doesn't say anything about Lyanna.

Please add again the similarities between Arya and Lyanna, those are relevant and are part of the canon. If someone really wants to include the fact that both Sansa and Lyanna were promised to someone ok, do it, but stick with canon.
youmad
04:42:23 AM Aug 16th 2015
'she is separated from her family for the duration of a war, and was never rescued' could be used for Arya, as well. Since she also was separated from her family and never rescued.
JulianLapostat
04:47:17 AM Aug 16th 2015
edited by JulianLapostat
Well Arya is a fugitive while Sansa is a captive. Lyanna was a captive and not a fugitive. That's why Lyanna has something in common with both her nieces, as much of a Tomboy as she may or may not have been, she ended up being a Damsel in Distress
Anna_Marie
04:48:57 AM Aug 16th 2015
edited by Anna_Marie
It is a very vague parallelism that could be applied to other characters. Arya was never rescued, and Jaime Lannister was set free by Cat but not rescued, but if having that means we can end this edit war I'm fine with it.

And we don't know if Lyanna was a captive during Robert's Rebellion or not, we don't even know if Rhaegar abducted her of if she went with him willingly. We don't know if she remained in the TOJ because she wasn't allowed to leave, because she didn't want to, or because she couldn't. We don't even know if Lyanna had any idea there was a war going on at the time, we don't know anything. Saying that both Sansa and Lyanna were hostages is speculation
youmad
04:50:24 AM Aug 16th 2015
We do not know that about Lyanna. There might have been a possibility that she ran away with Rhaegar. It's not confirmed in any way, even the author himself said it was a mystery and he wanted it to keep that way and have people trying to figure out what really happened. Arya was just as much as a captive with the brotherhood without banners and there's the Harwin factor, as well. She was also kidnapped by the Hound .
JulianLapostat
04:51:40 AM Aug 16th 2015
The point of Foil as a trope is to list certain parallels. Lyanna is a Stark, a beauty and an aunt to Sansa, there is a connection between them which does not exist with other hostages.

And Jaime Lannister was very much rescued, he returned to his family didn't he?
JulianLapostat
04:54:38 AM Aug 16th 2015
edited by JulianLapostat
Well I thought we wanted to avoid fanfiction? Rhaegar and Lyanna (much as I agree with the issue of Jon's parentage) is not remotely confirmed in the books. So there's no point listing that.

Arya is not a captive as of Book 4 and 5. She is entirely on her own will in Braavos with the Faceless Men. She was only a captive for a brief section in Books 2 and Books 3. For the most part she is a fugitive. Whereas Sansa is a captive first of the Lannisters and now Littlefinger.
youmad
04:55:27 AM Aug 16th 2015
But if the parallels don't hold any importance in the books then what does it matter? Margaery was compared to Lyanna by renly, had people that said she looked like her, likes to ride horses, was promised to a (real) Baratheon. What is the need to write the Lyanna/Sansa parallels when Lyanna already has parallels written from the author with her other niece, Arya? Sansa already shares similarities with Catelyn. And as for the beauty part, Arya herself is becoming one.
Anna_Marie
04:57:45 AM Aug 16th 2015
Jaime returned to his family because Cat allowed him to go, not because his family managed to break him free.

And the point of Foil as a trope is to list relevant parallels. Saying that Lyanna was Sansa's aunt and both were going to have political matches doesn't give any meaningful information about neither one of them.
JulianLapostat
04:59:46 AM Aug 16th 2015
edited by JulianLapostat
Actually there is a parallel between Sansa and Lyanna made by Ned Stark, he compares Sansa pleading for Lady to Lyanna pleading to him. That's a mysterious reference in Book 1. I didn't mention it because that's not what the Foil trope is about. Its whether two characters have similarities and contrast with each other or not. Margaery's situation doesn't have anything in common with Lyanna at all. She is not remotely a Tomboyish woman, no wars are fought over her nor is she separated from her family to a drastic extent.

In any case, why bother so much about this one tiny edit.
DaniLl
05:04:37 AM Aug 16th 2015
Ok, this is getting out of hand.

I think it's ok to say that both Sansa and Lyanna were betrothed for political reasons and were separated from their families while there was a war going on. Anything beyond that (the love of music thing, saying both were hostages) is passing speculation and fan theories as canon, and political matches are very common in ASOIAF so I think is understandable if some people don't consider those facts relevant enough to say Sansa is a foil to Lyanna, but I don't see the harm in including those facts in the article either.
JulianLapostat
05:08:44 AM Aug 16th 2015
Lyanna was definitely a hostage as far as most of Westeros is concerned. That's not a fan theory, that's a fact. The official line is that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, maybe raped her but he did kidnap her and told his Kingsguard to keep her locked up and the kingsguard were willing to kill her brother and his friends (and they did kill five of his friends) to stop him from saving her. Nobody has disputed that at all.

Saying Sansa and Lyanna were hostages for the duration of a war and never rescued is fine by me. Harry the Heir and Sansa seems to me an intentional reference to Robert and Lyanna but if other people aren't fine with that, okay I'll leave it.

youmad
05:10:56 AM Aug 16th 2015
edited by youmad
Because there have been a lot of edits in the past 2 days, and you even went to delete the whole paragraph because of the deletion of something that was understandable. The thing is the same parallels can be made with Arya; captive, separated from her family and never rescued. Why is it relevant only to Sansa? Also, Sansa/Lyanna's situations can be regarded similar to an extent, but how does that make Sansa similar to Lyanna at all?

Anyway, nvm.. let's just hope that it remains this way.
DaniLl
05:11:50 AM Aug 16th 2015
IIRC Kevan thinks that Lyanna went with Rhaegar because she wanted to, and Cersei never thinks that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna even while thinking about what started Robert's Rebellion.

But in any case, until the books give an official version of the events, we can't confirm if Lyanna was a hostage or not. We can only speculate.
JulianLapostat
05:12:38 AM Aug 16th 2015
Alright, if it is so important to you, do as you please. The similarities are clear for me and for most others.
DaniLl
05:21:30 AM Aug 16th 2015
There are similarities between Sansa and Lyanna's stories, yes, but as youmad said, that doesn't mean Lyanna and Sansa had things in common, personality wise. And we can draw parallelisms based on common events, but then other characters, like Margaery, can be included too. What people are pointing at here is that those parallelisms don't give any information about Lyanna as a character, which is why they are considered unnecessary.
Anna_Marie
Topic
01:10:59 AM Aug 16th 2015
Is there a way to limit the edits for a specific page? The Lyanna page has been edited like four or fives times in just a few hours. Personally I liked the third edit done yesterday, because it was accurate and it only had facts confirmed by the books, but that's personal opinion.
JulianLapostat
04:35:22 AM Aug 16th 2015
I think its more a case of one edit that is a conflict than the other page. So I don't think its fair for editors of other sections to be hard done by. In any case for such cases, I would prefer if people come to discussion pages.
Shahanshah
Topic
01:09:41 AM Feb 25th 2015
edited by Shahanshah
Similar vein to the Sansa discussion: I looked up the relevant passage for Catelyn's only sex scene with Edd and would disagree that it is "not for pleasure, but as her duty to bear him children." The lines:

"He looked somehow smaller and more vulnerable, like the youth she had wed at the sept at Riverrun, fifteen long years gone. Her loins still ached with the urgency of his lovemaking. It was a good ache. She could feel his seed within her. She prayed it might quicken there. It had been three years since Rickon. She was not too old. She could give him another son."

I don't feel like that is describing a lay-back-and-think-of-Winterfell scenario: it sounds to me like she opens by being genuinely affectionate towards him, and she specifically mentions that the ache is "a good ache" which seems like she did enjoy it. On top of that, there is no discussion about them needing another child: after all, Ned has three potential heirs and two daughters already (on top of his bastard), even by the standards of the setting he's doing fine and she's already done her duty. So it seems more likely that this sex was an act of love between them, rather than them trying for another kid.

She does actively *want* to give him another son though, because she A) loves being a mother and loves her children and B) wants to be able to do it for his sake; note the words "give him", like a present.

If this is an Establishing Character Moment, I think it is more about establishing that Catelyn feels genuine warmth and love towards her husband and her children, which is later repeatedly supported by the rest of the text. (Spoiler coming) Even *moments* before she dies, one of her last thoughts is of how "Ned loves her hair". She is genuinely into him, not just out of duty.
Larkmarn
06:58:08 AM Feb 25th 2015
Sounds legit.

Is that really her first scene in the book, though? I admit, I've only seen the show, I figured I'd check.
Anna_Marie
01:35:03 AM Aug 16th 2015
edited by Anna_Marie
Is not really her first scene, that passage about her lovemaking with Ned is in her second chapter. That aside, Shahanshah is right, in that scene Cat didn't have sex with Ned because it's her duty, she did it because she loves him.
Anna_Marie
05:08:49 AM Aug 16th 2015
edited by Anna_Marie
wt
JulianLapostat
05:10:07 AM Aug 16th 2015
Not most people, just two individuals with new accounts. Nobody who are regular editors here had any issues with that edit.
Anna_Marie
05:37:04 AM Aug 16th 2015
Wrong thread but anyway, I don't see how seniority matter here. Just because someone is new doesn't mean they are wrong.
Tiranasta
Topic
09:19:40 AM Aug 15th 2014
Is Bran's new image book-accurate? If nothing else, isn't his hair the wrong color?
JulianLapostat
11:10:48 AM Aug 15th 2014
Also true for Rickon's image which is brown...he's red-haired like his mother, like all the Stark kids except Arya and Jon Snow
Lacey
Topic
09:14:05 AM Apr 28th 2014
I would like to start a discussion about how accurate a few tropes/descriptions under Sansa's entry are accurate.

I do not believe the Nice Girl trope fits the character. While Sansa is far from evil, she also isn't particularly nice. Her narrative from start to finish includes negative and sometimes cruel thoughts about other characters, even ones who haven't done her any wrong. A few examples:

Sansa on Morros Slynt: I hope he falls and shames himself, she thought bitterly. I hope Ser Balon kills him. — ACOK

Sansa on Tyrion: He is so ugly, Sansa thought when his face was close to hers. He is even uglier than the Hound. — ASOS

Sansa on Robert Arryn, who suffers from an illness: They led the boy away. My lord husband, Sansa thought, as she contemplated the ruins of Winterfell. The snow had stopped, and it was colder than before. She wondered if Lord Robert would shake all through their wedding. At least Joffrey was sound of body. — ASOS

Sansa on the Lords Declarant: She could see the towers and keeps of the Gates of the Moon, as small as a child's toys. Around the walls the hosts of Lords Declarant were stirring, emerging from their tents like ants from an anthill. If only they were truly ants, she thought, we could step on them and crush them. — AFFC

Again, she's not evil and she doesn't owe these characters anything, but someone with ableist and classist ideals who is often criticizing those around her in her thoughts isn't exactly nice. If they were, then the trope would apply to nearly every single character except the truly evil.

There is also a claim that Sansa based her Alayne Stone identity on Jon Snow. This hasn't been supported by anything in the text and seems to be more conjecture/theorizing.If I'm wrong, maybe actual canon evidence where Sansa thinks/says this would be helpful.

Another entry that's under debate is the Lack of Empathy trope description. Right now it says this:

  • Lack of Empathy: Her admitting to a startling lack of feeling towards seeing death for the first time in A Game of Thrones is either an odd case of this and/or Hidden Depths — despite being a complete Princess Classic, she also has the same innate toughness as the rest of her family.
    • Averted for the most part. She's one of the few people in King's Landing that isn't willing to throw anyone else under the bus to get ahead. She even shows empathy for people who are actively malicious toward her, such as crying when Joffrey was killed. She also rescues Ser Dontos and takes care of Lancel and frightened women during the Battle of Blackwater simply because they were scared.

This seems to be filled with conjecture and fan analysis. It also has inaccurate examples attempting to refute the trope. No where in the text does it show that Sansa is unwilling to throw someone under the bus. By the time we get to AFFC, she is throwing her cousin under the bus for the sake of her and Littlefinger's plans.

The example of her crying over Joffrey is also misleading. Here is the passage:

"Joffrey was dead, he was dead, he was dead, dead, dead. Why was she crying, when she wanted to dance? Were they tears of joy? She found her clothes where she had hidden them, the night before last. With no maids to help her, it took her longer than it should have to undo the laces of her gown. Her hands were strangely clumsy, though she was not as frightened as she ought to have been. "The gods are cruel to take him so young and handsome, at his own wedding feast," Lady Tanda had said to her. The gods are just, thought Sansa. Robb had died at a wedding feast as well. It was Robb she wept for. Him and Margaery. Poor Margaery, twice wed and twice widowed." — ASOS

It's made clear that she's happy Joffrey is dead (rightly so) and is crying for Robb and Margaery, not him. So the entry is inaccurate and I don't understand why it was edited back onto the page.

I feel that this version of the entry would better illustrate how Sansa fits that trope:

  • Lack of Empathy: She doesn't have any sympathy for Mycah when Joffrey starts cutting his face. Later, she admits to a startling lack of feeling towards seeing death for the first time in A Game of Thrones. She also doesn't have sympathy for Robert Arryn, her ill cousin, who she wishes she could slap around, criticizes as inferior to Joffrey because of his disability, and is slowly poisoning to help advance Littlefinger's plots.
    • Averted during other parts of the series when she helps others. She rescues Ser Dontos when Joffrey attempts to murder him and takes care of frightened women during the Battle of Blackwater simply because they were scared. She also helps Lancel Lannister when he's wounded during the battle, even though he is one of her enemies.

This gives a fuller picture on how she fits the trope with canon examples, while also acknowledging parts of the story where she averts the trope. The fan speculation is also removed.

Also, I don't believe we can use a fan discussion thread as evidence, the way C Ray did in an edit comment. We should be using canon and keeping the WMG to the the WMG pages or fan discussion boards.
CRay
09:20:23 AM Apr 29th 2014
edited by 92.209.183.232
So... Sansa is not a Nice Girl in your opinion. Okay, let's discuss it then.

Sansa on Morros Slynt: I hope he falls and shames himself, she thought bitterly. I hope Ser Balon kills him.

Well, this might be correct, actually. She isn't thinking fondly of House Slynt, more specifically, Janos, who was one of the people responsible for hacking her father's head off. I guess her hatred towards Morros is not justified, not truly.

Sansa on Tyrion: He is so ugly, Sansa thought when his face was close to hers. He is even uglier than the Hound.

First of all, let's be honest: Tyrion is ugly for human standards. This is not just an opinion, it's a fact he admits himself and Sansa isn't the first POV character who pointed that out, either. Second, you're ignoring the context. She is forced to marry him at that moment, for God's sake. She does not find him attractive at all and she has every right to think that, as she is supposed to share his bed at the end of the day. This hardly counters her being a nice girl.

People tend to say that Sansa seems to hate Tyrion, but she acknowledges the fact that he didn't rape her or overall treat her poorly, she is thankful for it. She says he was kind to her and he is innocent of murdering Joffrey, but she simply couldn't trust him for being a Lannister and Sansa was totally right. Tyrion disliked his father, sister and Joffrey, but he was loyal to them.

Sansa on Robert Arryn, who suffers from an illness: They led the boy away. My lord husband, Sansa thought, as she contemplated the ruins of Winterfell. The snow had stopped, and it was colder than before. She wondered if Lord Robert would shake all through their wedding. At least Joffrey was sound of body. ASOS

Sansa is about to get thrown into another forced marriage. She does comfort Robert and shows concern for him. When she lied, she did so, so she would not harm him (and conveniently not die admittedly), or at least that is what she's telling herself...

Sansa on the Lords Declarant: She could see the towers and keeps of the Gates of the Moon, as small as a child's toys. Around the walls the hosts of Lords Declarant were stirring, emerging from their tents like ants from an anthill. If only they were truly ants, she thought, we could step on them and crush them. AFFC

Again, ignoring context. The Lords Declarant are threatening the Eyrie and Littlefinger with hosts and try to starve them out. I'm a pacifist, but that doesn't automatically make me not beat someone to death if this other person threatens to kill me.

Or I can actually say this is not truly Sansa anymore, but Alayne, though this does seem a bit cheap imo.

As it was described, her being a Nice Girl starts to be more clear once her father's head was taken off. Besides the other occurences that were listed, there are plenty of scenes during her imprisonment where she treats others well. When Myrcella is leaving King's Landing, Sansa tries to defend Tommen crying, when Joffrey orders him to stop, for instance. She takes care of Lancel, her enemy, and she is very worried about Margaery since she became Joffrey's new betrothed. While we're at it, Sansa even almost shows pity towards Marillion and must actively stop herself from doing that, since he almost raped her and helped Lysa in almost killing her.

Another example, Sansa doesn't look at Lollys Stokeworth the way others look at her. She treats Lollys with respect. If you want to counter that, yes, I'm aware Sansa thinks she's dull and placid, but that's nothing compared to the other people who call her things like lackwit, dimwit, diminish her mental capacity and insult her looks. There are scenes with Lollys that show clearly how nice Sansa actually is, as unlike the rest of Lollys' family who treats her harshly even though the girl is clearly traumatized, Sansa talks gently to her and doesn't make any bad comment about her mental capacity, instead thinking she feels sick since she is pregnant.

About the Lack of Empathy issue:

Now that I think about it, neither description is fitting. But I wanna talk about your suggestion.

She doesn't have any sympathy for Mycah when Joffrey starts cutting his face. Later, she admits to a startling lack of feeling towards seeing death for the first time in A Game of Thrones. She also doesn't have sympathy for Robert Arryn, her ill cousin, who she wishes she could slap around, criticizes as inferior to Joffrey because of his disability, and is slowly poisoning to help advance Littlefinger's plots.

First of all, she is angry with Robert because he wanted an arm, when she offered a hand. He was starting to annoy her.

Now here's the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa's lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion (maybe the comparison between Robert and Joffrey) that says "she lacks empathy". Empathy and sympathy are not the same thing.

I might as well use other characters to elaborate. What Tyrion does for Jon and Bran is showing empathy, as he knows what it feels like to be socially or physically limited. He knows how a bastard and outcast feels like and offers advice and help for both of them. What Maester Aemon did is showing empathy, when he talked to Jon in Game of Thrones as no one else knew better what it means when your vows are tested, when you have to decide between your love (and/or family) and your duty. Jon learns to be empathetic towards his fellow brothers when Donal Noye has a talk with Jon and afterwards drops his arrogant lordling behavior. He learns to be empathetic towards the free folk after riding with them and spending time with Ygritte, who constantly reminded him how little he actually knows. Jon had to learn to be more humble and show empathy towards others and all these people shaped him into a capable leader, who in the end was unfortunately almost always misunderstood.

Sansa can show sympathy a lot, but outstanding is her empathy which is shaped by her experiences in King's Landing. A notable contrast to Arya, who is also traumatized by what she sees during her journey and in response starts to lose her emotions and her ability to feel for and with others (though this might happen with Alayne, too).

Sansa knows how it feels like to part with someone you care about, to be scared (to death), to see someone you loved, and loved you in return, die in front of you, she has an idea of what a horrible experience rape must be and was a prisoner who was humiliated and violated by Joffrey in front of everyone. Sansa knows what it feels like to be alone.

All of this is the reason why she can understand the other characters she feels sorry for. She feels with them. Dontos was humiliated, Tommen felt sad, Lollys was raped, maybe almost killed, and was treated harshly, Sandor was lonely, scared and hurt, so were the other women during the siege scared. She probably knew and understood how Tyrion felt, when Joffrey mistreated him, too.

Also, I don't believe we can use a fan discussion thread as evidence.

Honestly, if you are referring to me mentioning the Pawn to Player reread project, I must wonder if you even read a single page because it's not just fan speculation. There is textual evidence that is discussed, the same way you and I are discussing these tropes here by showing evidence from the books.

There is also a claim that Sansa based her Alayne Stone identity on Jon Snow. This hasn't been supported by anything in the text and seems to be more conjecture/theorizing. If I'm wrong, maybe actual canon evidence where Sansa thinks/says this would be helpful.

Not everything needs to be spelled out, does it? It's not like George Martin has to point out all the foreshadowing or the references to history and Greek mythology in the books, either. We might as well remove any parts in here that hint at Jon possibly being Lyanna and Rhaegar's child because no one in the books has said so, as of right now.

As it is mentioned, the Big Brother Worship is very subtle so this is obviously based on how one interpretes her relationship with Jon and how Alayne is portrayed. But as I mentioned before, it's common practice when making up new identities or new people to base them on people you actually know so you won't forget what you said and later contradict with something you said. (Yes, I picked that up from someone who studied criminology actually and this is fiction, so George might not have intended that at all and I could be completely wrong.)

There are signs that can be interpreted like the way the one, who said Alayne is based on Jon, did. I do not remember details anymore besides Sansa knowing no other bastards besides Jon, Alayne being the same age Jon was when he left (14) and the fact that Alayne supposedly doesn't like dancing, something every proper lady should like, including Sansa, yet the reader learns in A Dance with Dragons that Jon can't dance and doesn't like to do it.

Admittedly, it's largely interpretation and there is no thought in Alayne's chapters where it says "what would Jon do in this situation?", so her positively looking up to Jon the way her other siblings did is hard to prove, which probably comes with the fact that the two of them don't have scenes where they interact outside of flashbacks. She does say in her last chapter that she hadn't thought of Jon for ages (consciously), though we all know Alayne/Sansa is an Unreliable Narrator and when Sansa prayed for her family, she included Jon.
Larkmarn
09:41:07 AM Apr 29th 2014
I don't think Sansa really qualifies as a Nice Girl. She's a decent human being, which, in this setting is pretty damn rare, but I don't think enough to qualify for Nice Girl.
Lacey
03:15:18 PM Apr 29th 2014
edited by 168.156.70.25
C Ray, you haven't given any reasons for how Sansa fits Nice Girl, how she doesn't fit Lack of Empathy, or on how she has patterned her new identity after Jon. You've given more explanation/context for why she thinks poorly of those around her, but none of that means she fits the trope. It also doesn't help that you repeatedly bring other characters into the discussion as a way to make Sansa look better by comparison. She should be able to fit these tropes on her own.

She still belittles others in her thoughts based on their physical appearance and in her cousin's case, his disability. I could also add the fact that she continues to think poorly of Arya for not being able to conform even though she believes Arya is dead at the time. Your own example of her thinking poorly of Lollys (a woman who was gang raped and before that was at a disadvantage in their culture due to her status as an old maid, her poor physical appearance, and her lack of intelligence) further cements the fact that Sansa doesn't fit this trope. And when she does interact with Lollys, it is made clear that she would rather avoid them, but has to talk to them because they are in her way and it would be impolite not to speak to them.

There is no excuse for her ableist views on Robert Arryn, especially since he has no control over who he is betrothed to. As for the Lords Declarant, you're right that it was when Sansa was becoming Alayne Stone. But the Lords Declarant weren't out to hurt her. They were after Littlefinger and wanted to free Robert Arryn from him.

I agree with Larkmarn that Sansa is a decent human being, especially by the standards of other characters. But that doesn't mean this trope should be listed under her entry when it doesn't fit.

With Lack of Empathy, her own quote establishes that she does fit the trope. But no quotes have been put forth to establish that she averts the trope. You're making connections to abuse she's suffered and the abuses others have suffered, but not presenting quotes that specifically show that she is empathizing with others, not just sympathizing. Maybe we should compromise and reduce the Lack of Empathy example to just including her lack of feeling in response to the death of knight without any fan deduction.

As for Sansa patterning Alayne after Jon, yes, we need solid examples. Just as with the theory that Jon's parents are Lyanna and Rhaegor or that those two had a consensual relationship, all theories should be left to WMG pages or fan message boards. If there is any place where Sansa/Alayne thinks of how she is basing her identity after Jon, then it would be great if someone could please bring it over. But if not, maybe the big brother worship entry could mention how she starts to develop a bit of that with Jon when she thinks of them both as being bastards now and wishes she could see him again.
Synchronicity
10:00:45 PM May 1st 2014
I'm the one who added the original Nice Girl entry, and after giving it some thought I'd say Sansa's definitely a good person by the standards of her horrible ableist sexist etc etc society, and she's definitely still decent by modern standards, but not "nice" enough to be considered Nice Girl.
Synchronicity
Topic
06:23:04 AM Dec 6th 2012
Should we change Sansa's and Jon's quotes to something they themselves said, for uniformity? Doesn't help that these quotes are mitigating their statuses as classic fantasy hero and heroine. I'm thinking of that porcelain, ivory, steel quote for Sansa.
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