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02:58:29 PM Feb 17th 2014
The whole "no organization of tropes and subtropes" thing makes work pages harder to read.
03:03:18 PM Feb 17th 2014
I'd like to dispute that statement, since it means that I can always find a trope at its alphabetical place.
01:47:11 PM Feb 2nd 2014
edited by
Summary of post: Headers are appropriate for some pages, but not for Works pages; Characters and Recap pages could be useful in those cases.

All right, I'm confused.

In the section on Third Bullet Levels, it's said that a Header is an acceptable solution. However, I find that valid only in the case of Trope, Audience Reactions, and Trivia item pages. In these cases, the Medium can be subdivided between "Genre/Creator/Work that uses this Trope extensively A", "Genre/Creator/Work that uses this Trope extensively B", ..., "All other works in this medium".

However, on a Works page, this just doesn't fly. Actually, it shouldn't "fly"; a works page should list general or significant instances where a Trope is used. If the examples get so convoluted that the list of examples takes up a whole page height, then something's gone wrong. If the list on the works page goes like:

Then what should happen is that most of Trope-Tan's examples would go into the Characters page under Trope-Tan, leaving the main works page like this:

  • Trope:
    • Trope-Tan did this several times early on, (cite an early example, (Could be the Episode 7 example if either it's not that spoileriffic or a Late Arrival Spoiler,)) but stopped after the first season. %5Here leave a note about the other entries being on the Characters page
    • The Alice example with Trope-Tan's response.

Now, going back to the Tropes page, if a work has instances as I've described above, then the example should read thusly:

  • Work Of Trope:
    • Trope-tan did this quite often early on, [give some typical non-spoiler examples].
    • Alice did this in Episode 50 when... (Note: If it's spoilerific, then leave it off.)

Similarly, if a particular episode has several notable instances and that episode, or the season or Story Arc that the episode is part of, has a Recap page, the details of those examples should be listed in that Recap page. If these are the only instance of the show using the Trope, then it may mean that the trope should not be listed on the works page itself. A comment may be left in the appropriate place:

  • 5* Trope: Used extensively in S2 E33 Episode Name, see the Recap page. Do not decomment.

01:55:49 PM Feb 2nd 2014
That seems fairly overcomplicated if it's a "should".
02:10:43 PM Feb 2nd 2014
The first example I've listed is a "wrong"; the other two examples are "proper corrections", with the excess examples going onto the Characters or Recap page(s) as appropriate.

The point that I'm going for is that a header is not the right solution for a Works page, due to the fact that the Trope itself would have to be the header. If there's a Trope listing on a Works page that has mutated into a long list for a single Trope, then the better options would be to take the excess examples, and sometimes the Trope itself to the appropriate Characters page entry or Recap page, if these already exist.

The problem is expressing both the distinction and the solution.
10:06:56 AM Apr 17th 2012
It's kind of funny that this page isn't locked, what with it's instrumentality in the integrity of the wiki's indenting practice.
07:36:05 AM Oct 3rd 2013
It doesn't need to be locked unless some vandal attack it. Don't give them ideas.
06:57:45 AM Feb 25th 2012
I think we need to rule on how you handle multiple examples from a series. I think it's generally accepted that:

is wrong, while:

is right. Is that correct? Can we document it here?
07:38:49 AM Oct 3rd 2013
It is usually correct, although if one sequel has multiple examples, they're automatically pushed to a third-bullet level. It depends how integrated the franchise is, I guess. For several loosely-linked movies for example, all of them being first level is correct too (they can still be grouped, of course).
10:26:39 AM Jan 15th 2012
I think something should be added to the page that indicates that this applies not just to trope lists, but also to works lists. I know that when I was new here, I read the page and understood what was wanted for works pages (which have lists of tropes), but I was very unsure whether or not these rules also applied to trope pages (which have lists of works). Adding a sentence or two at the top to clarify would probably help avoid a lot of further confusion.
09:15:35 AM Apr 8th 2011
edited by DonaldthePotholer
Another potential guideline: "Each 2nd-bullet item should be a logical extension of a Main Item (1st Level). Likewise, any justified 3rd-bullet items should be a logical extension of the closest 2nd-bullet item that is above it."

So often, I've seen example pages where it seems like a 2nd-bullet item was written to clarify a 3rd-bullet item (or sometimes another 2nd-bullet. Granted, I sometimes engage in multiple-3rd bullet threads, but seeing Alternating Bullets expanding on the same point just irks me.

Also, there may need to be some clarification to the converse. Whenever a single work exhibits the same Trope in two different ways, they need to be expressed as two separate bullet points. Merely correcting a single 2nd-bullet by just using the "new paragraph-same point" markup doesn't always work.

Perhaps we should also have a diagram of what each bullet should represent: (I violate the policy here on purpose for demonstration purposes only.)

  • On Example Pages, this is where the Work goes. On Works Pages, this is where the Example goes. (Single General Example of the Trope in action also goes here)
    • Individual Example (If a multiple characters/settings/unconnected episodes, etc. commonly exemplify this Trope, a general example for each character/setting/episode/etc. works here. A singular Most Triumphant Example for the same would also go on this line with paragraph breaks if necessary.)
      If there is only one of "generally accepted justification" or Word of God on the subject, then it that is placed here following a paragraph break. (Same with a singular example with a singular Fanon explanation/Word of God, except this would then be on the 1st level.)

If there are multiple prevailing theories on the use of a Trope with a work/character/setting/etc., then these should go in that work's Wild Mass Guessing page. Multiple Words Of God still (each) merit their own 2nd/3rd-level point. This should be the only time that a 2nd-bullet point be used when it's not an example.*

When a Trope is explored in multiple facets and when those facets don't have their own individual headers* , each facet is its own 2nd bullet point. A potential exception is when a Character/Setting/Plot Element that is commonly known for portraying a Trope one way portrays it another way, in which case the Character/Setting/Plot Element becomes the 2nd level and the Facets become the 3rd level.

Basically, pattern each work's/character's example/trope with (only) the relevant items from the Playing With template.

Oh, and when there is a character page, move all examples of a Trope pertaining to the character to that page. If it is not a Spoiler Trope, a general reference to the character may be kept on the main works page.

Man, start by talking about a Pet Peeve and I end up attempting to codify the whole practice further.

EDIT: Edited to remove Red Links

EDIT 2: One More Thing: Make Sure To Tell People To Press The Return/Enter Key Following The Backslashes!
12:02:35 PM Dec 30th 2010
I find this article really confusing.

I understand that the gist of it is that there should be more than one item at any given indentation level. That's fine.

But the article is messy. The Right/Wrong alternation in the first section is confusing; it starts with a Right that has no corresponding Wrong, then alternates Wrong/Right pairs that aren't explicitly grouped.

And the first mention of Thread Mode is in an explanation of a Wrong example—the introductory paragraph explaining what Thread Mode is and why not to use it doesn't appear until the end of the page.

The Trope Description section assumes that the reader has read the "works page" section, which the reader may not have done if they're not interested in works pages.

The Trope Description section also doesn't contain examples, and says things like "Singles on one bullet and multiples on two"—which doesn't make any sense by the usual English use of the term "bullet." Apparently in most of this article, "bullet" means "the asterisk that you type to indicate an indentation level in a bulleted list in wiki markup" rather than "the little circle that marks the start of a new item in a typeset bulleted list". That may be obvious to an experienced wiki editor, but it's confusing to a newbie.

And finally, the note at the bottom says "These are the rules of English, folks." That's just weird. For example, it's not a rule of English that you shouldn't have a third level of indentation because that indicates a discussion rather than a list.

But even the idea that you can't have only one item at a particular level of indentation isn't exactly "the rules of English." I would say it's more of a generally agreed-upon stylistic choice.

In short, this article could really use editing/cleanup. I would do it myself, except that I'm not entirely sure what various parts of it mean or why they're there, so I suspect I would mess things up.
02:12:20 PM Dec 30th 2010
Yeah, honestly I can't make heads or tails of this page. Which makes the editing reasons on other pages like, "Example Indentation in Trope Lists, read it" even more annoying than they already are. This needs a major rewrite.
02:19:14 PM Dec 30th 2010
I whittled on it.
02:22:19 PM Dec 30th 2010
That's much better, thanks.
07:11:03 AM Dec 31st 2010
Looks good! Now if only we could get anyone to actually follow it....
05:55:44 AM Jan 5th 2012
And we need an explanation as to how to correctly use third bullets. This page has little (if any) explanation for that.
12:49:03 PM Jan 5th 2012
It would be something like

  • In X-Men:
    • Storm does this a lot:
      • Example 1
      • Example 2
      • Example 3
    • Cyclops:
      • Example 1
      • Example 2
    • Wolverine:
      • Example 1
      • Example 2
      • Example 3
      • Example 4
02:19:00 PM Jan 5th 2012
Ah, that makes sense. I already do it like that, but it really should be added to the page.
11:17:41 AM Aug 30th 2010
I'm not seeing a difference between the first "wrong" and the "right" that immediately follows it.
11:42:36 AM Aug 30th 2010
edited by FastEddie
The example in the 'wrong' is on the same line as the trope name, which is fine if it is the only example. When the second example was added as a bullet point, the first example should have gotten a bullet, too.

It's a very simple rule: There should never be just one item at a particular level of indentation.
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