Need a bettter explanation, or a split: Lightning Bruiser

I'd say stone wall (the two point tropes are about having a shown advantage in them, not being average).

The only reason I don't suggest softsplitting for any of these is that they crossover constantly. If Glass Cannon is specifically not about speed, just power over durability then Glass Ninja or Glass Samurai is about speed and power. Those that hit fast and hard work and play out differently than those that hit fast or hit hard.

Who needs a signature, really?

I think Stone Wall should have a reference to speed. But only in the sense of being purely about defense. Offense, speed, magic, healing, whatever, if it's not defense it's sacrificed.

Fight smart, not fair.

^^ Not always. Off the top of my head, in Pokemon, almost all of the glass cannons are fast. A Pokemon with high attack and no defense has to have speed, or it's completely useless because the opponent will get the first strike and KO you before you can land an attack at all.

edited 6th Nov '10 6:29:09 PM by troacctid

Rhymes with "Protracted."

If we make a new trope, it should be able to make sense independent of its sister tropes. If we create Glass Cannon Speedster, it should be a distinct character archetype, besides just existing between two other tropes. I think that when tropes are made to "fill in the gaps", they have a tendency to lack meaning. (It's my opinion think that Awesome Yet Practical suffered from this.)

A Glass Cannon that isn't fast isn't very useful (in RPGs, like Pokemon, anyway), but there are plenty of Pokemon with high Atk and no useful Spd or Durability stats.

The usual choice for a Glass Cannon would be one with speed. However Pokemon is an RPG, in other genres the simple act of range offsets lack of speed.

edited 6th Nov '10 6:51:21 PM by Rakath

Who needs a signature, really?

Indeed. The obvious example of a Glass Cannon lacking in speed would be just about any of the long-range DPS-specialist classes in an RPG, who suffer for the enormous damage they put out with long cast times and paper-thin armour.

Hence, cannon - a ranged weapon.

edited 6th Nov '10 7:43:43 PM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?

Rhataheta, the difference is the playstyle attached:

• A Glass Cannon who does phenominal damage but lacks defense or above average speed usually sits on range as their tool of trade. If not range then they will use the buddy system to be defended by someone (usually a Stone Wall, pure defense to block out the attacks of oncoming enemies). This is the general trade for a Squishy Wizard, great power, lots of prep. They aren't very practical unless the damage output is so much to be worth defending (either a long range or an Area of Effect deal).
• A Glass Samurai (or whatever we name the trope), won't be as limited as the Glass Cannon, range won't be the answer. They can stand up for themselves. They do everything in their power to never be hit, as they have the constitution and physical defenses of a mewling kitten. But they can output damage well enough that being a 1 Hitpoint wonder is worth it. Plus, as shown earlier, fast and powerful but fragile works fairly well in places like Pokemon.

edited 6th Nov '10 8:15:46 PM by Rakath

Who needs a signature, really?

In my not-so-humble opinion, those are two different flavors of Glass Cannon, not two different flavors Glass Cannon and Something Else. Both a wizard and a rogue are glass cannons, range isn't a limiting variable. The phrase doesn't literally mean "like a cannon in every way and also it's fragile", just "high damage, low defense". A wizard could throw fireballs from point-blank range without violating his "glass cannon"-hood... for that matter, so could an actual cannon.

I don't think this is pedantic fan-wanking; adding a separate trope for "Fast Glass Cannon" is changing the definition of Glass Cannon, which is not limited to slow or ranged, just "high offense, low defense", other variables irrelevant, though some are common. Mayyyyyyybe Fast and Slow or Ranged and Melee are subtropes of Glass Cannon, but, that is a soft-split (difference delineated in-article) at most, unless we are drowning in examples, which is not the case.

edited 6th Nov '10 8:54:01 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.

How about Blitz Blender instead of Glass ninja/samurai?

I'd say a possible solution might be to add a "strategies" section to Glass Cannon, like Stone Wall already has.

Strategies used by the Glass Cannon may include:

• Ranged Assault - Enemies will find it more difficult to hit the Glass Cannon if he keeps his distance and relies on ranged attacks.
• Hit And Run - Rush in, smack the enemy, and rush out before he can retaliate. This kind of Glass Cannon tends to overlap with the Fragile Speedster.
• Ambush - The stealthy approach, involving attacking enemies from behind, or while they're distracted by allies. This variety of Glass Cannon tends to rely on the Back Stab as his bread-and-butter offense. Snipers are a variant that combine the ambush with the ranged approach for massive damage.

This will not resolve any of the problems mentioned, i.e bad entry in Lightning Bruiser and Fragile Speedster, and the general confusion illustrated by the contradictory Fragile Speedster / Glass Cannon entries who are abundant in this wiki.
The fact that there is more of these bad entries in the Lightning Bruiser page than there is fast Glass Cannon in the Glass Cannon trope means in my opinion that people don't think that a Glass Cannon can be fast, which is why a reconstruction of the trope to fit his name and the way it is perceived will be a good thing (and doing the same for Stone Wall wouldn't hurt either).

And if we maintain the situation as it is now, we should change the name of Stone Wall and Glass Cannon to allow speed build .

Concerning the name, Glass Samurai lack the element of speed (I see samurai as being men in armor, so relatively slow), and Blitz Blender as lacking the fragile part. Maybe Fast And Fragile Bruiser will do the trick ?

Concerning the example of Yuuno, I was referring to his entry in Stone Wall. In my opinion, he is neither very fast, nor especially resistant, but I think that there is a lot of Yuuno fan in this wiki, so I will not touch this hornet's nest right now.

@ Troacctid Well, the fact that in the Pokemon game slow Glass Cannon are useless doesn't means that there isn't enough slow Glass Cannon to support a split.

edited 7th Nov '10 6:30:09 AM by VioletOrange

Glass Cannon is a preexisting term, so in this case I think the definition should follow the name. If Glass Cannon is a term used to refer to a hard-hitting Fragile Speedster outside of this wiki, then I think we should follow its most common usage. I'd support renaming/revising Stone Wall, though we should look for misuse first.

I've always considered Lightning Bruiser to be a place for a specific type of subversion of the Fragile Speedster and Mighty Glacier: The Big Guy who is surprisingly fast, or the Fragile Speedster who is surprisingly strong muscled and/or tough (not just high attack power)

If you do send Glass Ninja to YKTTW, I think the name is a little Metaphor Gotten.

edited 7th Nov '10 12:49:02 PM by Rhatahema

My two cents:

Neither Glass Cannon nor Stone Wall are about low speed. It is about hight attack/defense and low defense/attack. Their role is not much different if they are slow or if they have an average speed. But it is different if they are very fast/mobile.

Therefore, I propose making Glass Cannon and Stone Wall not "speed specific", but at the same time making 'Nimble Mountain' and 'Glass Ninja' as Sub Tropes. That way, GC and SW don't take 'speed' in consideration as default but can, if speed is a factor. If speed is important the Sub Tropes will ve used to differentiate, if they are not, (like in card games) the Sub Tropes are ignored.

Also, with that 'Glass Cannon' can still be used to refer to 'Glass Ninja', as it is it Super-Trope, although we won't list the latter exaples in the former page.

Well, it will lack the elegance of one trope for each build and one build for each trope, but it could work. That's good for me.

Nothing in the description or laconic version suggest that Lightning Bruiser can be use for hard hitting speedster. To replace the name Glass Ninja, I suggest Fast And Fragile Bruiser. Is it good or not ?

edited 7th Nov '10 2:17:50 PM by VioletOrange

The point is it will still be one trope for each build. Sure, Glass Cannon and Stone Wall would be super tropes, therefore including 'Glass Ninja' and 'Nimble Mountain' in them. However, if the separation is necessary, one could treat both Glass Cannon and Stone Wall as 'not fast' (therefore 'slow' in comparison). There would be nothing saying they are 'slow', but in the right context they would be treated as such.

Summarizing, depending of the context, 'Glass Cannon' will include the 'low speed' part of the trope. When discussing a fighting game, for example, 'Glass Cannon' will be the 'non-fast' variety, since else one would use 'Glass Ninja'. Tropes Are Flexible, after all.

Btw, I forgot to say before, but 'Glass Ninja' or 'Glass Samurai' are awful names. It carry implication that are not related at all. Glass Speedster Cannon maybe?

edited 7th Nov '10 3:01:44 PM by Heatth

Glass Cannon already includes both Slow Glass Cannon and Fast Glass Cannon. Adding an article about Fast Glass Cannons implicitly changes the meaning of Glass Cannon. Suggesting that Glass Cannon only means "slow, and high offense/low defense" is incorrect.

Glass Cannon and Stone Wall don't say anything about speed. Glass Cannon is "strong offense, weak defense" and Stone Wall is "weak offense, strong defense". Either could be fast or slow, it doesn't matter.

I think trying to put all these "builds" on one scale is misguided. They are not different combinations of the same variables. They are different combinations of different variables. If you do that, you have to redefine existing terms.

edited 7th Nov '10 3:18:15 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.

That is what I am saying. Keep Glass Cannon and Stone Wall as not speed specific and create a subtrope for both.

The difference is no fast Glass Cannon or Stone Wall would be listed in it pages (since there is a subtrope for it) and that, in a discussion, people would use them for 'non-fast' characters when contrasting with the new subtropes.

I am not proposing changing the definition of the tropes.

I really don't think we need The Same But More Specific for Glass Cannon. A character can already be both a Glass Cannon and a Fragile Speedster.

Rhymes with "Protracted."

"A character can already be both a Glass Cannon and a Fragile Speedster."

Exactly.

"I am not proposing changing the definition of the tropes."

I say: yes, you are, though maybe you don't mean to. Adding a Fast Glass Cannon article suggests there is a difference between that and Glass Cannon, which is changing the definition of the Glass Cannon trope. Maybe Both Glass Cannon And Fragile Speedster is a common enough combination to warrant its own article, but I doubt it.

I think Glass Cannon and Stone Wall are about offense/defense; Fragile Speedster and Mighty Glacier are about speed/defense; and Lightning Bruiser should probably be renamed, it sounds like it "fits" with the other four but it doesn't, it is very God Mode-ish, high offense and high defense and high speed, whereas the others involve some kind of balance. Combinations of the Four Types ("glass ninja" or "nimble mountain" or whatever) should possibly be mentioned in the Type's description and examples can appear on both articles. No new articles.

edited 7th Nov '10 8:03:21 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.

Except, that if it is a crossover between two existing tropes, and common enough to be worth splitting together. Then, if its Glass Cannon meets Fragile Speedster, it gets its own trope.

Since there are plenty of examples that fall under both, why not merge those examples into a trope that covers both? I mean, we could softsplit both tropes. Leaving Glass Cannon with a list as long as the main list of Glass Cannons that are very fast, and, leaving Fragile Speedster with a list of Fragile Speedsters that are very strong.

It'd look a bit silly, when the easier and far less redundant  ^*

to make a new trope for where there is such obvious crossover.

Who needs a signature, really?

From OP: "...you have the impression that a Lightning Bruiser is basically a fast Mighty Glacier..."

Yes, I think that is right. The other "build types" are a balance of some kind. Lightning Bruiser is not balanced: high offense and high defense and high speed. Examples that don't fit that should be cut. It maybe needs a rename, I bet the name is why there are so many "bad" examples: it sounds like it fits neatly with the other "types", and it doesn't. They are ostensibly "equal" but Lightning Bruiser is above them.

edited 7th Nov '10 8:10:49 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.

Man I already said that shit but apparently nobody noticed because it is the last post of page 2.

Each night, he abandons the trappings of civilization. Each morning, he repairs the front door.

If we create Nimble Mountain and Fast Glass Cannon (or whatever name we want it to be), there is absolutely no need to modify Glass Cannon and Stone Wall, except the usual end sentence :
"X is a subtrope of Y, when X is... If a character belong to X, please put only in the subtrope page."
And well, the build Glass Cannon is sufficiently special (there is a huge difference in term of gameplay between a Fast Glass Cannon and a slow/average speed Glass Cannon) to deserve a subtrope on his own, and the numerous example of hard hitting speedster on Lightning Bruiser means that we wont lack example.

Just to give you an idea, here what can be a first draw of the new trope
Fast And Fragile Bruiser
A subtrope of Glass Cannon, the Fast And Fragile Bruiser is fast, can do a lot of damage, but isn't tough. The Fast And Fragile Bruiser is a very classic character build, generally reserve for the hero : his fragility allows a lot of drama, his ability to dodge a lot of spectacles (and in videogames, provides a nervous gameplay) and, at last, the capacity to do a lot of damage will avoid never-ending battle and will explain why he is a One-Man Army feared by the Big Bad (and allow plenty of Oh, Crap! moment).
Contrary to other Glass Cannon, he is generally able to work alone, by using his speed to dodge or flee and his damage output to eliminate his target. It will therefore be no surprise that Hit And Run is one of his favorites tactics.
His nemesis are either Fragile Speedster who can dodge his attack and retaliate, their weak attack being sufficient to bring the health of the Fast And Fragile Bruiser down, or Mighty Glacier who can stand their attack long enough to stop them.
Contrast Nimble Mountain who is a fast Stone Wall

edited 8th Nov '10 3:40:53 AM by VioletOrange

One addendum, The Fast Glass Cannon (whatever we call it) would be a subtrope of Glass Cannon and Fragile Speedster. Similar to how Lightning Bruiser has elements of all these tropes without the obvious downsides each carry.

Who needs a signature, really?

Dammit, this thread is too long and confusing to take it all in, so I'm just gonna go ahead and say I agree with rodney anonymous. Also, Lightning Bruiser is speed+damage.

Can't think of anything witty, so have this instead...