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Flanker66 Dreams of Revenge from 30,000 feet and climbing Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Dreams of Revenge
#101: Apr 8th 2010 at 2:54:47 AM

I don't think The Art of War adequately explained what "fullness" and "emptiness" were (although that's probably further on in your book).

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#102: Apr 8th 2010 at 6:27:41 AM

Yeah, I haven't come across anything like that yet.

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Calendar enthusiast
#103: Apr 8th 2010 at 8:17:35 AM

Actually, I don't think it ever explains those concepts. It seems they're pretty basic Taoist concepts, and Sun Tzu figured that his readers would already be familiar with them.

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ChristopherAlgoo Red Oni from New York City Since: Jan, 2001
Red Oni
#104: Apr 8th 2010 at 1:13:41 PM

http://www.taopage.org/emptiness.html

Essentially, emptiness in Taoism is a mind free of clutter, a clear mind. A clear mind can think clearly, while a full mind is bogged down with preconceptions and trash.

(incidentally, I heart Taoism and I hope you liveblog the Tao Te Ching next)

edited 8th Apr '10 1:14:03 PM by ChristopherAlgoo

Those who accept their fate find happiness; those who defy it, glory.
CDRW Since: May, 2016
#105: Apr 8th 2010 at 8:06:55 PM

Sorry, but as much as I enjoy doing this I just couldn't do something that heavy for my next liveblog. I need to do something light and fluffy. Probably an anime. I keep wanting to make anime jokes in this thread, but my senses of geography and decency won't allow me to get away with much.

Anyway: The: Art: Of: War:; Chapter: Five:;, Continued.

15. Energy may be likened to the bending of a crossbow; decision, to the releasing of a trigger.

Ha! Lionel says that none of the commentators understand this right.

Stunning Sue says that battles can appear chaotic, but still be orderly. Mei Yao-ch'en in clarification says thus:

The subdivisions of the army having been previously fixed, and the various signals agreed upon, the separating and joining, the dispersing and collecting which will take place in the course of a battle, may give the appearance of disorder when no real disorder is possible. Your formation may be without head or tail, your dispositions all topsy-turvy, and yet a rout of your forces quite out of the question.

I wonder if this is a warning against thinking you've lost when you haven't, or advice on how to confuse the enemy. I think it's the first since they speak of the impossibility of a rout, but it works both ways.

17. Simulated disorder postulates perfect discipline, simulated fear postulates courage; simulated weakness postulates strength.

Lionel says he had to tone down the paradoxes in the original to have this make any sense at all. Makes me wonder how the other translations handled it. It also makes me lean strongly towards my other explanation for the previous verse, advice on confusing the enemy.

He says that disguising order as disorder is a matter of subdivision, courage as lightheartedness one of latent energy, and strength as weakness a matter of tactics.

19. Thus one who is skillful at keeping the enemy on the move maintains deceitful appearances, according to which the enemy will act.

Pretty straightforward if you ask me.

All right, I don't want to do this because it's so long, but this story needs to be told word for word. I think this guy just outbadassed the old man himself.

In 341 B.C., the Ch'i State being at war with Wei, sent T'ien Chi and Sun Pin against the general P'ang Chuan, who happened to be a deadly personal enemy of the later. Sun Pin said: "The Ch'i State has a reputation for cowardice, and therefore our adversary despises us. Let us turn this circumstance to account." Accordingly, when the army had crossed the border into Wei territory, he gave orders to show 100,000 fires on the first night, 50,000 on the next, and the night after only 20,000. P'ang Chuan pursued them hotly, saying to himself: "I knew these men of Ch'i were cowards: their numbers have already fallen away by more than half." In his retreat, Sun Pin came to a narrow defile, with he calculated that his pursuers would reach after dark. Here he had a tree stripped of its bark, and inscribed upon it the words: "Under this tree shall P'ang Chuan die." Then, as night began to fall, he placed a strong body of archers in ambush near by, with orders to shoot directly they saw a light. Later on, P'ang Chuan arrived at the spot, and noticing the tree, struck a light in order to read what was written on it. His body was immediately riddled by a volley of arrows, and his whole army thrown into confusion.

Unfortunately Mr. Giles says this story has probably been embellished more than other versions, but still....

Sun Tzu then goes on to advocate sacrificing pawns for greater gain, ambush, and combined energy (proper use of men and their talents as individuals and in groups) in quick succession.

23. Thus the energy developed by good fighting men is as the momentum of a round stone rolled down a mountain thousands of feet in height. So much on the subject of energy.

And that concludes chapter 5. Lionel also closes with a short and adept summary for people like me.

The chief lesson of this chapter, in Tu Mu's opinion, is the paramount importance in war of rapid evolutions and sudden rushes. "Great results," he adds, "can thus be achieved with small forces."

Flanker66 Dreams of Revenge from 30,000 feet and climbing Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Dreams of Revenge
#106: Apr 9th 2010 at 2:24:30 AM

Sometimes it's amazing what you can achieve with simple deception (like wooden mockups of tanks/aircraft).

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#107: Apr 9th 2010 at 2:37:42 PM

Chapter 6: Weak Points and Strong.

1. Sun Tzu said: Whoever is first in the field and awaits the coming of the enemy, will be fresh for the fight; whoever is second i the field and has to hasten to battle will arrive exhausted.

I...I don't understand. Why does something so obvious strike me as pure genius? That's the kind of thing that almost requires a "duh" at the end but I love it. I think I get it now! Sun Tzu was no better than anyone else at warfare, he just rolled a natural twenty on Charisma. He could say "roses are red, the violets are blue, soon you'll be dead, and a little dog's poo," and he'd immediately dethrone Shakespeare as the world's greatest literary genius.

Sorry. I don't think I got enough sleep last night.

Let's see. "Impose your will on the enemy and don't let him do it to you," "hold out advantages as bait," both good advice. Ooh, I like this one, "If the enemy is taking his ease, he can harass him; if well supplied with food, he can starve him out; if quietly encamped, he can force him to move." Good practical advice for imposing your will on the enemy. I like how he often backs up his general advice with useful stuff.

7. You can be sure of succeeding in your attacks if you only attack places which are undefended. You can ensure the safety of your defense if you only hold positions that cannot be attacked.

Uh huh. Good luck getting anything done that way. Farmers with pitchforks know you defend the most important things with the most force. It's good advice if you use it on small scale, i.e. attacking the weakest point and making sure you are defending a good place, but waiting around for the perfect chance strikes me as a good way to fall into a siege. It also seems like it would be easy to bait you into a trap that way. In fact, the commentaries related a story a chapter or two back where one man baited another army into attacking him by displaying only old and weak soldiers and weak cattle. He slaughtered his opponent.

GameChainsaw The Shadows Devour You. from sunshine and rainbows! Since: Oct, 2010
The Shadows Devour You.
#108: Apr 9th 2010 at 2:49:21 PM

I think the idea is to make sure you force the enemy to fight on unassaultable positions. Take Switzerland. If any country attacked them they'd have to fight their way through narrow passes and over high mountains. Good luck. In other words, you only place your defending army on the best defensive positions. You hold these key defensive positions, and that ensures that the enemy can't get to more vital areas.

Of course, good luck defending Holland in this case. Nothing but flat ground there.

EDIT: Equally, you try to catch the enemy on ground they can't possibly defend. Take the battle of Carrae, where Parthian horse archers caught Roman heavy infantry and outnumbered cavalry on vast, flat plains where the horse archers could pick them off at will. Thats what Sun Tzu means here I think, force the enemy to attack the hardest positions possible, and attack the enemy while they're in a rubbish defensive position.

EDIT: @Flanker: Man, I be.

edited 9th Apr '10 3:17:15 PM by GameChainsaw

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.
Flanker66 Dreams of Revenge from 30,000 feet and climbing Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Dreams of Revenge
#109: Apr 9th 2010 at 3:06:38 PM

^ This man/woman speaks the truth.

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TomoeMichieru Samurai Troper from Newnan, GA (Ancient one) Relationship Status: Mu
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#110: Apr 9th 2010 at 11:17:25 PM

Regarding the "first to the field" section, I always interpreted it as the distance travelled by whichever army. Like if I had an army and marched it to Atlanta to wait for somebody marching from say, Charleston SC, my troops would be fresher and more entrenched because they had time to prepare for the oncoming assault. So yeah, obvious, but still.

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Flanker66 Dreams of Revenge from 30,000 feet and climbing Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Dreams of Revenge
#111: Apr 10th 2010 at 3:57:25 AM

I interpereted it personally as: "Try to get to the battlefield before your enemy; that way you can rest and entrench yourself, while the enemy still has to do those things, and you can attack with (almost) impunity."

Yeah, so just another case of stating the obvious.

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ShayGuy Since: Jan, 2001
#112: Apr 10th 2010 at 7:03:36 PM

So it's a generalization of the "home team advantage" concept?

Flanker66 Dreams of Revenge from 30,000 feet and climbing Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Dreams of Revenge
#113: Apr 11th 2010 at 4:09:17 AM

I guess so.

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#114: Apr 12th 2010 at 12:14:09 PM

I'm sorry to announce that the liveblog is going on haitus for this week. Circumstances from Wednesday on make it impossible to post, and I'm going to be running around like a beheaded chicken until then. I hope this isn't too much of an inconvenienc.

Flanker66 Dreams of Revenge from 30,000 feet and climbing Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Dreams of Revenge
#115: Apr 12th 2010 at 12:41:10 PM

No problem at all!

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CDRW Since: May, 2016
#116: Apr 20th 2010 at 7:46:26 PM

And I'm back. Sorry for the wait guys. Let's see if I can figure out where I was.

Chapter 6: Continued

8. Hence that general is skillful in attack whose opponent does not know what to defend; and he is skillful in defense whose opponent does not know what to attack.

I like this. Your skill is in the hands of your opponent. It makes for a good slice of humble pie. Makes sure you don't ever forget that it takes two people to make a fight and just 'cause you've done well before it doesn't mean you will this time if you dismiss him.

10. You may advance and be absolutely irresistible, if you make for the enemy's weak points; you may retire and be safe from pursuit if your movements are more rapid than those of the enemy.

That reminds me of a special I saw on the History Channel about the Bismark. They were talking about the development of warships and how the philosophy that speed and range was more important than firepower. If you can make the decision of where and when to fight the enemy's strength means nothing.

Sun Tzu then says that if you want to fight an entrenched enemy all you have to do is "attack some other place that he will be obliged to relieve." That makes sense. Sometimes deception just won't work, but if you can force the enemy into a situation where they have to come out or lose then they're pretty much screwed either way. Holy crap, did Sun Tzu invent the Xanatos Gambit?

If you are defending, you don't need entrenchments or any of that crap, you just need to throw something weird at him. Lionel translates this into English as "bluffing."

If you know where the enemy is and they don't know where you are you can keep your troops in one group while they have to split up to look for you.

Flanker66 Dreams of Revenge from 30,000 feet and climbing Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Dreams of Revenge
#117: Apr 21st 2010 at 9:10:53 AM

Welcome back!

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CDRW Since: May, 2016
#118: Apr 21st 2010 at 8:22:12 PM

Thanks. This one'll be real short. I sort of got sidetracked and don't have much time now. sad

18. Numerical weakness comes from having to prepare against possible attacks; numerical strength, from compelling our adversary to make these preparations against us.

That's a very interesting thought. I never made that particular connection before. It's something I feel like I should know instinctively though. He goes on to say that if you know the time and place of a battle you can place your people where you want, but if you don't then you won't be able to use one part of your army to back up another part. They won't be able to help each other.

I'm real sorry about this one. I promise I'll do better tomorrow.

CDRW Since: May, 2016
#119: Apr 22nd 2010 at 8:08:59 PM

All right, I'm back.

The Art of War: Chapter VI continued.

19. Knowing the place and the time of the coming battle, we may concentrate from the greatest distances in order to fight.

I'm getting visions of signal fires and summonings Lord Of The Rings style.

I like how he encourages scheming to find out the enemy's plans and chances of success. That's so Jason Bourne.

25. In making tactical dispositions, the highest pitch you can attain is to conceal them; conceal your dispositions, and you will be safe from the prying of the subtlest spies, from the machinations of the wisest brains.

And now we see the advent of Kira. In all seriousness though, that's one of those "duh" things. I wonder how many generals actually forget to do that. I also wonder how many people have been on the bad end of that concealment and still managed to pull a win out of their nether regions.

27. All men can see the tactics whereby I conquer, but what none can see is the strategy out of which victory is evolved.

It sounds to me like he's saying that while the principals involved are obvious, the practical application isn't, probably because there's so many different ways to do it.

28. Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances.

^ THIS. IF THERE IS ONE THING TO TAKE AWAY FROM THE ART OF WAR IT IS THIS.

GameChainsaw The Shadows Devour You. from sunshine and rainbows! Since: Oct, 2010
The Shadows Devour You.
#120: Apr 23rd 2010 at 5:42:01 AM

I believe he says somewhere in here that predictability is the first step to defeat. I think that was how Hannibal was ultimately overcome. He always started with an elephant charge and ended with a cavalry flank attack. What I would've done during the showdown at Zama would've been to make the elephants charge the roman cavalry and then annihilated the Roman infantry while they were occupied. Horses are scared shitless by elephants.

edited 23rd Apr '10 5:42:25 AM by GameChainsaw

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.
Flanker66 Dreams of Revenge from 30,000 feet and climbing Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Dreams of Revenge
#121: Apr 23rd 2010 at 8:27:41 AM

Yeah. As soon as you become predictable you've signed your death certificate. Although it's nowhere near as dangerous as real war, I tended to be rather predictable when playing chess at first. However, when I decided to switch things up a little, it kind of threw off my opponent entirely.

edited 23rd Apr '10 8:28:04 AM by Flanker66

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#122: Apr 23rd 2010 at 4:32:50 PM

The Art of War: Chapter VI continues

''29. Military tactics are like unto water; for water in its natural course runs away from height places and hastens downwards.

30. So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.''

It makes sense. The path of least resistance. The difference between water and a general though, is that a general has the ability to look ahead and take the path of most resistance now if it means getting to an even easier path later on.

He also says that just as water changes course according to the ground a soldier's path changes according to who he faces. So, adaptability I guess. Just like the Borg. But, come to think of it, does anyone remember the Borg actually being all that adaptable tactically?

33. He who can modify his tactics in relation to his opponent and thereby succeed in winning, may be called a heaven-born captain.

I like that, there's nothing like a good Messiah figure in war.

He goes on to say that the five elements aren't always equally predominant, and the seasons are transient, and the days get longer and shorter. I'm not sure what all that means, but the commentary says it's to illustrate the fact that nothing is constant in Nature, and the same in War. Lionel also say Sun Tzu chose his examples poorly, because all those things are fairly predictable while war isn't. I wonder if Sun Tzu knew that.

And that ends Chapter VI.

edited 23rd Apr '10 4:33:30 PM by CDRW

Flanker66 Dreams of Revenge from 30,000 feet and climbing Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Dreams of Revenge
#123: Apr 24th 2010 at 1:43:09 AM

Well in those days, the weather might as well have been completely random, considering just how little information they would have had to go on (unlike us, whom have radiosondes, weather radar, etc. but we still get it wrong occasionally).

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jaimeastorga2000 Indeed Since: May, 2011
Indeed
#124: Apr 24th 2010 at 8:22:42 AM

Keep in mind Lionel wrote his commentary in 1910. Makes me wonder what he thought he knew about weather predictability.

edited 24th Apr '10 8:23:06 AM by jaimeastorga2000

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#125: Apr 26th 2010 at 5:58:46 PM

And now for the start of Chapter 7! Are you feeling lucky? You should, because we're MANEUVERING!

1. Sun Tzu said: In war, the general receives his commands from the sovereign.

No shit Sherlock. I guess a few South American nations never got the word though.

Let's see. Harmony in the camp, and between ranks (latter part from the commentary) are necessary. Then you can start with the maneuvering junk, which is really really really hard (his words, not mine). It's really really really hard because you have to turn "the devious into the direct, and misfortune into gain."

''5. Maneuvering with an army is advantageous; with an undisciplined multitude, most dangerous."

What's the saying? "An army can only move as fast as the slowest person in it?" I think that this is one of the most compelling reasons to have a volunteer army like the U.S. has now. You can weed out the wussies, train the everloving crap out of those that are left, and beat everyone else to and on the battlefield. But I don't know that much.

Lionel says neither he nor anybody else really understands this next part.

6. If you set a fully equipped army in march in order to snatch an advantage, the chances are that you will be too late. On the other hadn, to detach a flying column for the purpose involves the sacrifice of its baggage and stores.

Lionel says that while the translation is suspect, it's pretty clear Sun Tzu doesn't like the idea of a long march without provisions.

7. Thus, if you order your men to roll up the buff-coats, and make forced marches without halting day or night, covering double the usual distance at a stretch, doing a hundred LI in order to wrest an advantage, the leaders of all your three divisions will fall into the hands of the enemy.

Haste makes waste?

8. The stronger men will be in front, the jaded ones will fall behind, and on this plan only one-tenth of your army will reach its destination.

Apparently so. Nobody likes deserters.

I like what the commentary says about this part, and I think it's a good way to close the post.

The moral is, as Ts'ao Kung and others point out: Don't march a hundred LI to gain a tactical advantage, either with or without ipedimenta. Maneuvers of this description should be confined to short distances. Stonewall Jackson said: "The hardships of forced marches are often more painful than the dangers of battle." He did not often call upon his troops for extraordinary exerti9ons. It was only when he intended a suprise, or when a rapid retreat was imperative, that he sacrificed everything for speed.


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