Shin Megami Tensei Series

...What do you mean by that?

Vertical Individulism would be fine if it wasnt for hierarchies. Just that.

I mean, I gathered that. But what was with the anti-Semitic parentheses?

Anti-Semitic?

These.

SMT in general as a long, long, long history of being either covertly or outright antisemitic, it's not odd that people might unconsciously pick the minor details up.

It's been used by Neo-Nazis to identify Jewish people online.

Also this is the first time I've posted in this thread, who'da think.

edited 22nd Jul '17 2:39:20 PM by DarkbloodCarnagefang

I'm not sure I'd call SMT anti-Semitic per se. Anti-Old Testament, maybe.

Anti-Old Testament is more accurate.

Here's an article talking about a conspiracy theory that was also the backbone of IV and Apocalypse and also the spelling out of the tetragrammaton which, while not outright antisemitic, is just really freaking disrespectful.

We already know and disagree with him.

I'll confess I found that article interesting, but even if it is true I have no shame in still being a Megaten fan - I think it's okay to be a fan of something that whether intentionally or not sends problematic messages, if you acknowledge they're there. Like, I even consider the original James Bond novels decent reads, and they say women enjoy being raped and Koreans are a separate species (yes, really)!

Much iffier, I think, is being a fan of something where someone involved has done something wrong in real life, i.e. still going to/purchasing Woody Allen or Bill Cosby movies even after whet they did came out.

Believe me, I love the games as much as anyone and I totally agree about enjoying things even if give off iffy messages, but it helps to be conscious and be upfront in that acknowledgement.

Never watched Woody Allen movies and stopped watching Bill Cosby things even before the scandal was revealed.

Also, confession time: I found Amaterasu's little rant about eeeeeeeeevil "Hebrew godS" in II far more uncomfortable than anything in the IV duology.

That statement wasn't directed at anyone in particular.

edited 22nd Jul '17 3:00:43 PM by HamburgerTime

Yeah I had more but I fumbled it and deleted it by mistake. Oh well.

I was going to include about how while its used one theory a bit more than some others the franchise has always used theories both debunked and otherwise for it, so one Theory doean't change anyhting or my enjoyment of it. Especially in a setting where numerous debunked Sci-Fi Theories are used along with Mythology related ones.

The setting has used Old Testament God for all situations as well, and that's where he's the more ruthless, cruel, and vindictive. He's a jealous god after all.

I feel like SMT have always used the New Testament version of the Old Testament. Since Jews have other holy books as the foundation of why we have certain traditions and stuff. They also mostly consist of arguing with G-d.

Right. I'm about to move on with the story...only I get the impression there's not gonna be much story left after I do what I'm about to do.

The next thing I have for the story is to "Today's Peace Unto Eternity". It kinda sounds like the end of things. I'd want to find at least one Fiend before I finish this Law run, so can someone fill me in on whether there's anything else after I finish it? I'd hate to be locked out of any law exclusive Fiends and all.

Megaten Anti Communitarianism is something funny and more notable every time who you think about it.

Law is pretty much bad for being communitarian for start, but Chaos` flaws also take a new light when you think about SMT Anti Communitarian ideas, Chaos is bad not because of the extreme individualism per se, but because that individualism will end up in hierarchies and those hierarchies would end in communities.

This becomes more obvious in De Su 2 and Nocturne, the games with Alternative Alignment Systems, where both Ronaldo and Yamato , and Chiaki and Hikawa , are some variant of communitarianism. Hierarchical (Chiaki, Yamato) and Egalitarian (Ronaldo, Hikawa)

Also, keep on mind something, Yamato' most sympathetic scenes are when he talk about the value of the individual merit while his most antagonistic ones are when he talks about the value of the individual to society.

Both the De Su 2 guys and the Reason bearers are show as part of a same system over both. (Isamu is a weird one). The outsider forces to the system (Daichi' club of friends, Anguished One, Lucifer in Nocturne) are show as more sympathetic, keep on mind who any of them indentify itself in a group, Daichi' team put emphasis on the friendship in a similar way to IV A Bonds team, a group of friends united for the situation rather than a actual group of people following a ideal.

Heck, P5 help a lot to identify that Pro Individualism Anti Hierarchy idea, the first villains like Kamoshida are individual assholes who believes themselves being at top of a social hierarchy due to their individualism, then Shido who support hierarchical collectivist systems , and then finally Yaldabaoth, who wants a system where everyone is equal under him so people like the targets wouldnt exist anymore.

Neutral groups are also like, non existent, only the Hunters from IV have some relevance to the plot, sure, things like friends are always accepted but is most about upholding the invididuality of each member than a actual group. Also, it makes sense for Dagda and Isamu being so hyper individualists while not being Chaos, they are mean to be Neutral taken to the extreme, Neutral already upholds individualism, just who without the hierachy of Chaos.

edited 22nd Jul '17 7:26:09 PM by KazuyaProta

I've found very few Chaos routes I enjoy. It's near completely incompatible with my own philosophy.

I never liked Law, mostly because it is incompatiable with my own views and philosophies.

edited 22nd Jul '17 7:38:10 PM by CybranGeneralSturm

Speaking of, I asked around on r/megaten why nobody likes Ronaldo, and got a pretty interesting response saying that a major reason is that despite wanting to help everyone he not only has no solution to the current crisis but goes around attacking the only people who actually know what's going on. And yeah, I do get that.

And a borderline social darwinist also argued against him.

Like?

edited 22nd Jul '17 7:47:20 PM by KazuyaProta

For the most part, I believe that the individual comes before the group. It is a major reason why I despise Law.

People who don't like Yamato have still sided with him because he is logical about why he does what he does, even if it comes off as cruel and viscious. People have gotten on Als case for trying to kill him before to try to stop Yamato too.

Heh, I'm the exact opposite. More people equals more important; it seems like common sense to me.