Needs a better description: Space Elves

The description of this supertrope reads really badly. It could use some cleaning up. And that's not even going into how its type are akwardly numbered "Type 2" "Type 2-A". For one it seems to link 4 types of creatures calling them all space elves, when none of these types seem to have that much in common to begin with. And the page description is LONG. It's a rambling wall of text that is badly written and hard as hell to read.

There is also the problem that it gives "definitions" to subtropes that said subtrope pages do not have: For example, it's type 2-A is a long tirade about psychic powers and blue skin over green skin. Yet the "subtrope" it links to, Green-Skinned Space Babe does not even MENTION psychic powers at all, and the most of the part about blue skin was added by the author of the space elves article anyway (lifted from said article almost word for word).

Then there's the whole type 3, which makes parallels between The Greys and Abduction myths and old tales of Changelings and The Fair Folk, which are admitably interesting, but I am not sure I agree with the end result that because of this, Grey somehow count as space elves.

IIRC, somebody suggest a Blue Skinned Space Elf Babe trope, and I said it was needlessly specific, but a Space Elf trope would not be amiss. I guess it just didn't get enough time in YKKTW.

That explains the pathetic attempt to shoehorn Green-Skinned Space Babe into something it's not. How did we end up with The Greys becoming Space Elves though?

edited 7th Dec '10 1:52:47 PM by Ghilz

No idea. I didn't watch the YKTTW.

This trope proposal has been through Three (count' em) ykttws

and a fourth ykttw (Psychic Blue Skinned Space Babe) that we all agreed was legitimate, but not (at present) separately tropable.

The consensus of each and every discussion was that:

• Space Elves was a legitimate and badly-needed trope.

1. Elves In Space was a legitimate and highly specific subtrope which was pointless to separate from the others, being Fantasy Elves... IN SPACE!.

2. Enlightened Mystic Race was not only a legitimate subtrope, it had two ykttws devoted to it, so it is actually a pre-existing subtrope that got launched before Space Elves did (Type II). Space Elves is the super-trope of this pre-existing subtrope.

3. Mystic Alien Intruders was a legitimate subtrope mentioned on several other pages, including The Fair Folk.

• If examples were confined to type 1, creating a page would be definitionally impossible. The vast consensus was to merge Type 2 in with Type 1 with a soft split, barring a...

• Barring a future hard split whereupon Enlightened Mystic Race would still be listed as Type II space elves, since, again, it's a Super-Trope. (We even discussed whether or not to list examples on the Space Elves page, since most of the four Types also fall under an existing trope page. The consensus was to list them on both pages, since Space Elves was the supertrope.)

• Type 2A "Blue Space Elf Babe" (type 4 really, since it overlaps with the other types) was merged in after the fact, with neither a soft nor a hard split, merely an "examples may be noted where found" in the other three existing categories.)

The categories were crafted based on existing tropes, after much discussion, because this is a supertrope.

And the issue was extensively discussed in ykttw, right down to waiting an extra two weeks for input and examples after folks said Just Launch It Already.

edited 7th Dec '10 2:57:41 PM by berr

Ghilz — The Greys have always been The Fair Folk IN SPACE!.

They are not High Fantasy Elves IN SPACE!, that would be #1 Elves In Space.

As for the "badly written stuff" about "Psychic Blue Space Elf Babes", that was added by other authors on the basis that it was a legitimate trope and was not (yet) separately tropable, since Space Elves itself didn't yet exist (and there was a minority who suggested Space Elves itself was not a trope, and Wyvernil who authored Enlightened Mystic Race himself decided not to make it a separate trope, but a category of the existing trope) and therefore links back to Green-Skinned Space Babe for good reason. The paragraph added to Green-Skinned Space Babe was added precisely to explain the existence of this peculiar subtrope, based on the six or seven examples attested over the course of the ykttws. In essence, we merged the subtrope "Psychic Blue Space Elf Babe", written by several other people, into Green-Skinned Space Babe and made a note of it on both pages, since half the examples so far given turn out to be "Psychic Blue Space Elf Babes" which is attestation enough.

edited 7th Dec '10 3:06:11 PM by berr

Hrrm no Look at the two tropes. The Greys, The Fair Folk. They barely have overlaps at all. Less there's a whole mythology of The Fair Folk performing anal probings I don't know about.

And your "supertrope" is still giving its subtropes meanings they do not have, as per the Green-Skinned Space Babe point above.

Perhaps you should have YKTTW THIS trope, rather than merging 4 in an unreadable mess.

edited 7th Dec '10 3:06:43 PM by Ghilz

Ghilz, I'm getting tired of these attempts to personalize this. I and a bunch of other people worked on this in the ykttw stage. As for "your type 3" as you so eloquently put it, it's a legitimate trope and, guess what, is not specific to The Greys. As for The Fair Folk, there are numerous "I got abducted and impregnated by elves" ballads.

We DID ykttw THIS trope, with a brand new description (mostly Wyvernil and I, but only after much input in the other ykttws), and the ONLY thing "merged in" was the Type 2A stuff ("Psychic Blue Space Elf Babe"). And that was at the request of other folks in the YKTTW for THIS trope.

If you want, ykttw that as a subtrope and we can streamline the page by noting that examples of any or all three types can also be Psychic, Blue and/or Matriarchal and refer people to Psychic Blue Space Elf, ok.

Similarly, Wyvernil, (who ykttwed Enlightened Mystic Race and merged it in with Proud Scholar Race), suggested that at some point, if the examples list for Space Elves and/or Proud Scholar Race Guy got too big then we could split off Enlightened Mystic Race as a separate trope, since it is Space Elves Meets Proud Scholar Race. Little ambiguity there.

But according to the ykttw that never got off the ground, people felt "We do need a trope for Space Elves. But Psychic Blue Space Elf is Space Elves meets Green-Skinned Space Babe but more specific." And indeed it is. And the people who proposed it replied "but it is tropable" and listed a bunch of examples. I was dubious. But many of the legitimate examples of Space Elves already cited fall in that category also, so it is a category of Space Elves of some sort.

edited 7th Dec '10 3:43:02 PM by berr

OK, I've calmed down now. Look, if you give folks a chance to look at the page and let it marinate, since it just got launched from ykttw, we can probably streamline the description a little. I know one whole paragraph that can be consolidated in particular. And the Psychic Blue Space Elf Babe stuff can be split off somehow, since it may be complicating the order of the description as you suggest (because there is no clean cut boundary as to whether a Blue Space Babe is psychic, matriarchal, elf-like, and/or an actual elf, meaning it's separately tropable given the number of examples of psychic, blue, matriarchal space babes who're merely prone to be elf-like. It's really a separate and highly-specific subtrope of both this and Green-Skinned Space Babe.

edited 7th Dec '10 3:42:27 PM by berr

Look im not saying Arrrrg Kill it with fire.

My point is that A) It's long, and hard to read what with the multiple hottips, the description needs smoothing out, the pointless tangent about hypothesis on mental wiring and dragons and monkeys. B) It treats Green-Skinned Space Babe as a subtrope and gives it meanings said trope does not have, so this parts need re-writing (as yourself have said). C) I think the part about mystic alien intruders could stand a bit of re-writing, buts it is minor

OK, I'll work on it and I'll give Wyvernil a heads up since he was the inspiration for type 2 proper. We could probably start by doing something about the type 2-A stuff (make it it's own trope, perhaps) and I can probably consolidate the Jungian wall'o'text.

On edit: but probably not tonight! I am tired... had to fix our front door today in sub zero temps.

edited 7th Dec '10 4:15:12 PM by berr

The "Greys = Elves in Space" thing existed long before Tv Tropes, more in psychology circles than in the pop-cultural osmosis-land.

It seems evident to me that with type 2-a it is simply indicating that when type 2 is giving you a green skinned space babe, it gives you a type 2-a.

Pretty much. Of course, it doesn't help that ISO-Standard Fantasy Setting Elves with blue skin and psychic powers do seem to exist, and the whole "blue skinned female space psychic" may be workin' off that.

We could take I took the confusingly-monikered "2-A" out of the list of official subtypes and mark them down as "Also, Space Elves of various types have an unusual tendency to appear as Blue Space Babes. Examples who are also BSB's can be noted where found." That would tighten that part up.

edited 7th Dec '10 9:51:30 PM by berr

Heh, we could make "2-A" a subtrope of BSB instead and call it Blu-Ish Alien Princess. BAP for short.

 ^{Hide Off Topic Brainstorming}

Yeah, I'm just throwing that out there for fun... Maybe it could be a Just for Fun page. I wouldn't really care enough to write it, but it helps with the post-launch cleanup on the existing page. It would probably make more sense to merely note on the Space Elves page: "yeah, a lot of them are also BSB's." I'm tired... I'll do some work on the existing page cleanup later.

OK, I tightened-up the article language to address many of Ghilz' concerns.

edited 7th Dec '10 9:47:08 PM by berr

ninja'd, see previous post

edited 7th Dec '10 9:47:34 PM by berr

Ok, I decided to "be bold" and tighten the text up a bit to adress Ghilz' concerns.

What this means is I went and renamed "Type IIA" to simply "Type B" — as in "Blue Space Babe". It's now listed as just a variant instead of a separate category, (e.g. the Loroi shown above seem to be elves in all but name, but they're also Type B, so that makes them... Type 1-B) although most examples of this variant are type 2...

So the psychic blue business is really just referring to Space Elves who also meet certain other tropes, not a separate category of Space Elves.

Hopefully that will ease confusion and it means the "blue / not blue" has no effect on the existing 1-2-3 classification, which is more dependent on how degrees of separation from generic fantasy elves.

Of coruse, we could still use the letter A instead of B for referring to "psychic blue babes" variant... or BSB...

edited 7th Dec '10 9:50:11 PM by berr

OK, I'm done with the rewrite.

Well that satisfies me.

Bump, if nothing else is needed, holler for a lock.