Harry Potter

To be fair, Harry is a child/teen in the novels. The magic world is the only world that has ever been kind to him. The Dursleys certainly didn't encourage critical thinking in him - it is not like he had access to any political theory.

Any criticism of the magic world would have to come entirely from his emotions - as he didn't have any education to base it on - and his emotions were tied up in being relieved that those people weren't nasty to him.

Of course, Ron has no such excuse. He may lack education, but his emotions were free.

Hermione probably read a dozen of books on feminist theory before going to Hogwarts. To her, "but those people just love cleaning and cooking and they do it out of love, they don't want to be paid'' would be very obviously an empty excuse. She heard all that shit before.

Ron's investment in the world is quite obvious. He's his mother's son, he's been continuously taught that rocking the boat can (and does) put his father's career in jeopardy. He is instinctively defensive about wizarding culture, just as he's instinctively defensive about his family.

...

That linked post is a very good example of the sorry state of literary analysis some people are taught - where you start from the conclusion (in this case "liberals don't stand for anything") and work backwards to rationalise it.

It also shows ignorance of the text, in particular, and politics in general. First of all, being an anti-Voldemort figure wouldn't make someone a social justice warrior, because Voldemort doesn't represent injustice. We are shown, again and again, examples of Voldemort's true philosophy.

"There is no good and evil, only power, and those too weak to seek it." Those are his words and bare out, over the course of the rest of the series. Tom Riddle is a half-blood, as is his most powerful ally (Severus Snape) and his most powerful enemy (Albus Dumbledore). He courts magical creatures regarded as despicable half-breeds by most pure-blood supremacists and is obsessed not with blood purity, but with immortality (which he is willing to do anything to achieve, because he is, emphatically, not "too weak to seek it").

In order to become an anti-Voldemort, then, he willingly sacrifices himself (which is the opposite of trying to cheat death). Also the post's reference to "the progression of history" is nonsense. History does not have a set political trajectory. Also, I've not seen any evidence of Voldemort possessing an "idyllic image of the past".

I also don't know how the poster expects a seventeen year old to do anything about a "corrupted and bureaucracy-choked government". Is he supposed to impose his own dictatorship on the eternally grateful magical proletariat? Maybe, they think the story would be better if everyone just conveniently changed their minds on issues like the Statute of Secrecy, blood status and the rights of House Elves overnight.

Also, the idea that Harry only cares about "racism against half-bloods" is hilariously wrong. There's barely any prejudice even shown towards half-bloods in the books. The racism is usually directed towards the Muggle-born students, and he is consistently opposed to it. What is this nonsense?

Harry wants to be an Auror because he wants to fight dark witches and wizards. As for the idea that liberals should be "organising insurrectionist and disruptive activity against Trump", well I wonder why liberals respect democracy and the rule of law. Really, I'm stumped as to why any liberal would believe in constitutional republicanism. Surely it's obvious that a Glorious Democratic People's Republic is the superior solution.

Anyone read Harry Potter as an adult? How'd you find it?

I skipped it as a child because the books were just so huge and I wasn't that into wizards anyway. I watched the first two or three films but stopped after that. I feel like the odd one out because it seems like every 20-something likes Harry Potter and I don't understand anything. I own the first book but I can't seem to get into it. I stopped at the part where Harry learns he's a wizard. I know some details about the books and I don't get it. Like, wizards don't get muggle stuff or use phones? 'Never seen that in a fantasy book. It's odd.

It's because wizard stuff is automatically better than muggle stuff in every conceivable way, except for the myriad ways in which it's not and, in many cases, is actually woefully inferior to mundane technology.

Like, sure, they've got us beat at transportation but they communicate by bird. That's terribly inefficient. Even the early 1900's had that beat.

Sure, there's that stuff that lets your face appear in a fireplace, but you can't leave a voicemail on those. You just gotta hope your recipient is near a fireplace and nobody's listening.

The first book was set in 1991, so it could be a case of Technology Marches On in a meta sense.

I read an interesting fic where Harry essentially replaced magic with technology but just called it magic and nobody caught on until it was far too late.

EDIT: here's the fic! http://archiveofourown.org/works/1149623

Harry Potter went down in history as the man who destroyed the magical world. He received a Nobel Prize for it.

edited 29th Sep '17 3:37:32 PM by lalalei2001

Given the relative populations involved and the intelligence of the birds in question, it's not necessarily that much less efficient than the post office. They might not use phones, but they had instant video communication for years and no real reason not to take face-to-face meetings much more often thanks to the aforementioned ease of travel.

Where magical society runs into problems is in managing those same feats on a macro scale, when things are more decentralized across much larger distance. As might be the case with, say, America. We'll see what the future (which will take place in the past) will bring. I'm not saying there aren't holes or that there won't be more, but the somewhat flawed Wizarding World is still a lot more inventive than a lot of recent fiction which might be more...comprehensive.

It's mentioned in book four that having a lot of magic in a place, e.g. Hogwarts, fucks with electronics, so there's some excuse for magicals not having phones and such. Mostly, though, it seems to be due to their culture being isolationist and snobby as balls towards muggles and thus inclined to stick to their own methods even if muggle technology is more useful.

They do have magicked-up radios and cars and stuff, though. I assume muggleborns and halfbloods keep noticing their muggle relatives having useful things and introducing them to the magical world.

Kinda makes me wonder what a modern take on the series would be. I know that's weird to say given how young it is, but a lot has changed in the last twenty years.

• Malfoy: I mean, Salazar Slytherin wasn't so bad if you've done your research. He was actually a pioneer for pureblooded relations, and as we know, purebloods are only group that's really discriminated against.
• Hermione: I do not, in fact, "know" that. And the last time I tried asking around about him on Castr, some jerk with the username "PurebitchOrGTFO" told me to get raped and die.
• Malfoy: Oh, that was you?

I'll admit, the idea of the Internet existing in wizarding society raises several interesting possibilities.

Of course, quite a bit of the tension in the series relies on difficulties in communicating and acquiring information, so that might make things difficult there.

Wizards and mugges have different strengths in terms of transportation and communication. Wizards of any age can instantaneously transport to the home or business of anyone they know; adult wizards can instantaneously transport anywhere (or anywhere they've been before; it's unclear). No time loss, no traffic jams, no carbon emissions. (The train to Hogwarts feels more like a tradition. For maximum efficiency, they could Floo all the kids into Hogwarts or Hogsmead, from home for wizarding families and from designated central locations for Muggle-born kids. But efficiency isn't the objective.)

But while wizards clearly have the advantage in short-distance travel, Muggles are better at long-distance travel. The books even mention that many wizards use airplanes, because intercontinental apparation is especially difficult and many aren't confident in their ability to do it. Long-distance broom travel is also uncomfortable (though if flying carpets weren't banned in Britain for what seems like frankly protectionist reasons, that issue would be reduced).

Wizards don't have email, true, but that's a fairly recent innovation for Muggles. Owl post is as fast or faster than the postal system, going by how long Hedwig's deliveries generally take, and it's far cheaper on a societal level due to not requiring a publicly-funded post office (or UPS, or any parcel-delivering businesses). Floo achieves the same function as an email, and since you can interact with the place where your head's appearing, you could leave a written note if the poson wasn't home.

Outside of the realm of transportation and communication: the ability to conjure object out of nothing (except food, which can, however, be replicated) is certainly better than anything Muggles have got.

edited 30th Sep '17 6:19:06 PM by Galadriel

(looks at current 3-D printing tech) Eh, we're getting there.

You still need raw materials to 3D print something. It's not like conjuring several hundred sleeping bags out of thin air, to give one example from the books.

For that matter, Vanishing is just as important, in its own way. It allows for a zero-waste society.

edited 30th Sep '17 6:33:28 PM by Galadriel

Reminds me of how in Little Witch Academia one character uses a crystal ball for what was essentially texting.

Considering how similar they were - I'm pretty sure LWA was directly inspired by Harry Potter, just making the main character Neville instead of Harry - I would be interested in seeing a sort of cultural struggle between people who prefer the traditional way of doing things and those who want to bring more of the rest of the world's technology into their society.

The wizarding world of Harry Potter have radios at least, so some sort of electrical devices can be made to work. And while Ron's dad is an oddball, he at least proves you can mix advances automobiles with magic and have the best of both worlds.

The magical world in LWA also tends to shun the advance technology of the rest of the society, but they have even less an excuse there's no rule about electronics and magic not being able to mix and magic is not a secret to the rest of the world. They're just extremely traditional. But even there we see the influence of modern technology on the magical world.

The aforementioned crystal ball text/ e-mail thing.

A dragon abandon hoarding treasure in favor of day trading online.

A character conjures up a hologram calculator.

The main characters are suspended for ordering from a pizza delivery service while in detention.

The flight challenged character gets around this one time by getting racer engines strapped to her broom.

The students switch to tablets instead of carrying around a bunch of heavy text books.

A teacher flies around on a Roomba instead of a broom.

It would be fun to see more interaction along those lines in Harry Potter. You just know a Weasley or two would be all over that stuff.

@Tobias: That may have been funnier than you intended.

What.

Also, while I know people consider it bad, the cursed child show a better temporaizer, meaning the wizard world does move and change....in is own way of course.

Reminder that Harry Potter, as my friend puts it, "ended the series as a trust-fund kid, a terrible sportsman, a so-so friend, a plagiarist, a beta-male sexist (arguably) and a slaveowner.

May I ask what compelled you to restart a thread that was last posted in over a month ago, in response to a post that was made two months ago, in regards to a topic that seems prime for some rather unpleasant arguments?

To be clear, I don't mean to be rude, but I'll confess I don't much see the point in it.

edited 15th Nov '17 1:12:20 AM by KarkatTheDalek

"Beta-male" needs to die as a concept.

If I met your friend, I'd kick them in the nuts.

A terrible sportsman?

@Son It's funny because you actually know the troper who said that.

And Harry does end the series as a slaveowner and his final thoughts were about whether his slave would make him a sandwhich.

@Karkat One of my followers just posted a criticisim of Harry Potter and I came here to link it and then ended up reading what you guys last talked about.

Arguments should be encouraged not dissuaded.

edited 15th Nov '17 1:49:48 PM by MadSkillz

Fine, my bad. I suppose I am just decidedly not in the mood for this discussion, but you're right that other people should be able to have it.

Small correction, though - that doesn't end the series. There's still the epilogue.

Fair enough. Apparently Kreacher is dead by then having lived to the ripe old age of 666 which is kind of annoying.