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x2 ”You and Black, you’re two of a kind, sentimental children forever whining about how bitterly unfair your lives have been. Well, it may have escaped your notice, but life isn’t fair. Your blessed father knew that, in fact he frequently saw to it!”
He liked him enough to name his kid after him.
2) Well, that's what this whole thing is about. Some people seem to think that James and Sirius were "good guys" in school and Severus was the "bad guy". I'm saying that they had good qualities abd bad qualities, but they weren't better than him st that point. Up until now, no one has really been able to bring up anything bad Snape did in school aside from calling Lily mudblood once accidentally.
edited 4th Oct '15 5:15:45 AM by 940131
That's not the actual quote.
"Then you will find yourself easy prey for the Dark Lord!" said Snape savagely. "Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow themselves to be provoked this easily — weak people, in other words — they stand no chance against his powers! He will penetrate your mind with absurd ease, Potter!"
Sorry, kinda hate he HP movies.
You know its weird but ultimately Occlumency played no role in the final two books. Dumbledore told Harry and Snape, "Nah...Voldemort won't try that trick again" and Harry doesn't learn this technique again and he freely looks into Voldemort's mind in the final books without any repercussions. I mean it's strange, why introduce this Occlumency thing and simply drop it. There was no follow-up to it.
Well in retrospect, it obviously provided the early glimpse into Snape's motivations. So it served mainly as that rather than anything else.
Snape hung out with Evan Rosier, Mulciber and other future Death Eaters. Some of them did do shady attacks against fellow school students. And Snape also invented nasty Dark Arts curses. He also did his best to persecute and expel Remus, simply for his association with James and Sirius. Snape was clearly obsessed with the Dark Arts at that point and he himself on finding out that Harry used Sectumsempra calls it "Dark magic". And from a Doylist and Watsonian perspective in the books, Dark Magic = Evil. Now of course from Lily's eyes, Snape was certainly not a trouble-maker and a rule-breaker like the Marauders, but then Draco Malfoy is probably a bigger stickler for school rules than Harry was anyway. So Snape would certainly be closer to being Villainy-Free Villain.
1) Again, I don't blame him for wanting friends. When he was alone he was tormented by James and his gang.
2) When did he try to get him expelled? Not that I'd blame him for wanting his bullies out of the school. He wanted to know what they were up to.
3) Except he's not the villain here. Question. Why are you trying to argue that they weren't the bad guys there when Rowling, Harry and the Marauders admit that they were jerks?
edited 4th Oct '15 6:21:55 AM by 940131
Would that it were so simple.
Who cares about Snape? Guy was a fucking redpiller Nice Guy before the term was invented, and a Wizard Nazi, as well. He can fuck right off.
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
He kept trying to do it, Lily even pointed out that he was obsessed with them. It's one thing to get James and Sirius, but going after Remus when he never did anything against him (well also anything for him) is part of his prejudice. Likewise Snape was prejudiced against Muggles. When he first sees Petunia, he calls her "Not you, you're just a Muggle" and he keeps telling Lily to forget Petunia since she "doesn't matter". Snape was also supremely possessive of Lily. Like he says "I won't let you" and backs away when Lily calls him on it, but that was obviously there within him.
In any case, why does it matter so much that Snape be good or better than the Marauders? Yes he was bullied and eventually after many years he did provide a valuable service, but the fact is why do people want to whitewash the racism and obsession with Dark Arts as a student. I mean bullying is wrong regardless of the victim, but just because someone is bullied I don't think they get a "morality carwash" and get to escape censure from the other stuff they do. After all today's victim becomes tomorrow's bully as it happened with Snape. And obviously not all people who got bullied turned out as bad as Snape did (see Neville for instance), so there were clearly flaws and problems in his personality all along.
If we translate the HP conflict into some kind of real-world correlative, then Snape would be a poor Hitler supporter in late 20s and early 30s Germany, or perhaps a Ku-Kluxer in the 60s, Lily would be Jewish or Half-Black, James would be one of those middle-class wealthy leftists in Germany who many lower-class Nazis resented, or that college war-protesting hipster who obviously makes fun of Snape for being "white trash" (which Snape is the wizarding equivalent of). The main reason people are sympathetic to Snape is that obviously the Fantastic Racism filters doesn't register as assertively to them as the whole nice guy poor-kid from broken home thing.
edited 4th Oct '15 6:51:18 AM by JulianLapostat
x2 A lot of people as you know. If no one cared about him, he wouldn't have so many defenders.
1) Do you have quotes? I don't remeber that.
2) It matters because you said they were better.
3) Why do you want to whitewash the Marauders?
4) I've asked this before and you keep dodging. What did Snape do in school that makes him worse than the Marauders? You're argument amount so far has been that he made friends.
edited 4th Oct '15 7:09:29 AM by 940131
4) He made friends with Death Eaters and psychos-in-training. Lucius Malfoy, Mulciber, Evan Rosier (who Mad-Eye says took a chunk off him before being killed), and also later, Karkaroff.
3) I am not whitewashing, I never said they weren't bullies to Snape. I just don't think the Aesop of what they did to Snape is "Jerk Jock attacks Nerd" or that it makes James deserving to be placed in the same bracket of Dudley and Malfoy when neither of them showed a tenth of the courage, achievements and sacrifice that they did.
2) Politically they were better people than Snape. And in that time and context, politics did matter, it wasn't something superficial or childish schoolyard thing. It had deadly consequences. So you can't simply say that Snape is the innocent persecuted or whatever.
edited 4th Oct '15 7:15:47 AM by JulianLapostat
1) I was asking for quotes about him trying to break Lily away from her sister. As I rscall they became distant, because Petunia was jealous that her parents liked Lily more and she wanted to be a witch too. That's not Snapes fault. Again, I can't blame him for wanting the Marauders kicked out of school.
2) What happened to him when he was alone in Snapes Worst Memory?
3) Maybe not Dudley. Before the dementor attack I can't think of any good qualities from him. Malfoy on the other hand is pretty perfect. They were both wealthy, arrogant, Jerk Jock bullies. Draco had good qualities too. He cared about his friends and family, spared Harry's life in Deathly Hallows, was unable to kill a man who'd done him nothing. Basically, he was a standard bully who got into things way over his head. The only real difference is that Draco was racist.
4) I can say that he was innocent actually, because you've still failed to give us evidence that he'd been bad. His misdeeds amount to having become friends with bad people and being nosy. Comparing James and Sirius's treatment of Snape to Fred and George's treatment of Ron is very wrong. Fred and George love Ron and he loves them. He doesn't hold any of it against them. It would be better to compare their treatment of Ron to James and Sirius mocking Wormtail would. They mocked him in the flashbacks we saw, but they still cared about him. He was their friend. It was ribbing. What they did to Snape wasn't that. They hated him and hunted him down when he was alone. They singled him out, attacked him and humiliated him in front of the school, because they were bored. Sirius and Remus have admitted that they were the bsd guys in that relationship. Why can't you?
edited 4th Oct '15 7:43:24 AM by 940131
4) The evidence is there in the books, based on what we see of Teenage Snape, what we see from that potions book, how Dumbledore treats him when he meets in the flashback. As Lily says, "You can't wait to join you-know-who...you see you don't even deny it". There's nothing innocent there.
2) Why do you cling on the fact that Snape was doing nothing when he got attacked that day. That was a jerky thing to do all-by-itself but that scene can't be stripped off context of all that comes before and after. The message of that scene is that good people can do bad things.
1) Well read the link I gave you, its the Prince Tale chapter on Google Books, scroll up and you will find it. Lily accuses Snape of showing him Tuney's letter and Snape is like don't worry it doesn't matter and then changes the subject.
1) So you're argument is that Snape was going to become a bad person in the future, so he was the bad guy in the past? Give me examples.
2) Context? The context is that James and Sirius were bored. I also got the impression that James thought bullying Lily's best friend (at the time) would impress her. It's not quite as stupid as trying to impress her by becoming a Death Eater, but it's still really stupid.
3) The page was omitted.
edited 4th Oct '15 8:10:09 AM by 940131
"The books don't support it at all, James and Sirius were "the height of cool" loved by Dumbledore, Mc,Gonagall and everyone"
You know many bully are like that? even fiction the typcial jerk jock is dating the cheerleader and prom queen while being leader of football team meaing he can get away with it, consider James grew up his tendency after hogwards...
"Snape being a bad guy is part of the point. You shouldn't even bully bad guys, that ultimately even if the victim really is unpopular for a good reason, he shouldn't be treated that way."
The point is that James was like Draco malfoy in that moment, who absued snape for petty jelosy and in his own words "because he was there" the next scene in the book make pretty clear they arent nice people at all, James grow while Snape sunk.
"he could have chosen to apply his talent and focus on his career, doing what Dumbledore did as a student, research and stuff."
Dumblodure solitude is self imposed while Snape wasnt, have him focus in his carrer I think the solitued will make him pretty much a perfect dr.house
And Sirius dosent try to make his way about his family, instead runiing away and treat kreacher like crap, that was his undoing.
Also the quote of Sirus and wormtail is instersting, I think that from Wormtail perpective Sirius was suicide idiot who gladly die for potter that anything else, he really understimed his bond with him.
"Who cares about Snape? Guy was a fucking redpiller Nice Guy before the term was invented, and a Wizard Nazi, as well. He can fuck right off."
Well is better to discuss you idea that dumbldore should get all dictator to fight the death eaters.
"James would be one of those middle-class wealthy leftists in Germany who many lower-class Nazis resented, or that college war-protesting hipster who obviously makes fun"
No, he would be the rich kid with lefty ideas that bully other because he feel cockblock by him, that it, being a better man happen after we he face a real challange, for the rest he is just a dick.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Would that it were so simple.
Snape = Death Eater, Death Eater = evil. End of story.
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
JKR disagrees with you.
"He could have chosen to apply his talent and focus on his career, doing what Dumbledore did as a student, research and stuff."
Isn't that what he was doing? He was minding his own business studying when the Marauders decided to bully him, because they were bored.
I think it was pretty nice of him that he was willing to die for his friends.
What was there to be gained by fighting the most evil wizard who has ever existed?" said Black, with a terrible fury in his face. "Only innocent lives, Peter!"
"You don't understand!" whined Pettigrew. "He would have killed me, Sirius!"
"THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED!" roared Black. "DIED RATHER THAN BETRAY YOUR FRIENDS, AS WE WOULD HAVE DONE FOR YOU!
Mr. Moony presents his compliments to Professor Snape, and begs him to keep his abnormally large nose out of other people's business.
Mr. Prongs agrees with Mr. Moony, and would like to add that Professor Snape is an ugly git.
Mr. Padfoot would like to register his astonishment that an idiot like that ever became a professor.
Mr. Wormtail bids Professor Snape good day, and advises him to wash his hair, the slimeball.
These were my favorite moments in Azkaban. It's like James is getting from beyond the grave.
edited 4th Oct '15 11:58:59 AM by 940131
Snape was a vindictive and resentful kid who jumped at the chance to join a boys club of racist bullies on the fast track to joining a terrorist hate group, which he never resisted. James was an entitled rich kid and bully who liked to lord his superiority over others and, at least in the beginning, instigated the conflict.
They were both assholes, and both in the wrong and right at different points of their school rivalry - it's important to note that their relationship at school is very separate from what they went on to do (Snape, in particular, was trying to eat his cake and keep it too in regards to his relationship with Lily and what he was doing with the future Death Eaters). What they went on to do with their lives put them much more solidly in the good and evil camp - Snape went on to stop lying to himself lie less to himself about who he was and went full evil Death Eater, while James evidently underwent some serious character development and became a legitimately good person.
But just because Snape was a jackass who ultimately became a worse person soon after, doesn't mean that he wasn't the victim in some of his interactions with James and co. At the same time that doesn't mean that Sirius isn't wrong about Snape "giving as good as he got" and that Snape didn't instigate some terrible stuff either. The Lupin incident is a good example of both parties going too far, but Snape instigating, for example.
I actually like the idea that while James was the one who instigated the conflict and was the bully in the beginning, over the course of the school year the two characters basically swapped personalities. There's a nice "just because you're bullied that doesn't entitle you to become a shithead" message there.
edited 4th Oct '15 12:03:48 PM by KnownUnknown
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
"Snape, in particular, was trying to eat his cake and keep it too in regards to his relationship with Lily and what he was doing with the future Death Eaters"
Its lees that and thinking that we the power the death eater grant him, Lily will be atract to him, he is thiking in his own term: by power, Snape crave for it because it make him indepent of pain, I dont really think he understand why Lily befriend him in the first place.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
I don't see how the Lupin incident is a point against him. He was nosy. It's not really comparable to what they did to him in Snapes Worst Memory. As for Sirius and Lupin... reading the books, they're not exactly honest about it until they're forced to be. For example, in the chapter where Sirius and Lupin mention Sirius' trick on Snape, Lupin says that he believed Snape hated James because he was jealous of his skills at Quidditch. Has Snape ever expressed an interest in being good at Quidditch? Isn't it a bit more likely that he hated James, because of the bullying?
edited 4th Oct '15 12:23:48 PM by 940131
Well one of the memories we see in the Occlumency lessons is of young Snape trying to fly a broom, failing and being laughed at by others. And obviously he keeps bringing up to Lily that James is a popular Quidditch player, and likewise he's quite fixated on that, because clearly he sees that as the one thing he can't beat him. Snape was definitely jealous of James. Like it's weird that he keeps bringing up "James Potter fancies you" to Lily, it's like he's already giving up in his mind.
That's essentially the point. Ultimately it's against bullying itself rather than saying all bullies are evil monsters and you know it tackles all kinds of bullying. Dudley turned out to be the best of the Dursleys at the end. Even Draco Malfoy is pathetic and sad when faced against a bigger bully, Voldemort. Snape himself is a horribly bully to Harry and Neville all his years and then of course he was a victim himself growing up, and he kept lashing out at others. In the case of James and Sirius it's going further by stating that even people who are good on a fundamental level can be total jerks, so it's basically warning against anyone getting the high ground or feeling superior.
edited 4th Oct '15 12:26:20 PM by JulianLapostat
World's Cutest Direwolf
Even after seeing the memory, Sirius talks about how he figures Severus was jealous of James's Big Man on Campus thing, including being good at Quidditch. So Lupin looks to be telling the truth as he sees it, just oversimplifying.
Well with Regulus, I think he was looking to commit suicide in a dramatic way. I always found his arrival in the 7th book an incredible Ass Pull. The only purpose is to provide redemption to Kreacher. I mean of all the things he could have done, he could have gone to Dumbledore and started Operation Hunt Horcrux before the Prophecy itself. He could have gone to Sirius, but instead he commits a moronic Senseless Sacrifice.
edited 4th Oct '15 1:03:00 PM by JulianLapostat
x3 Correction. We only see Lily laugh at him when he tries riding a broom. Presumably it was before they got to Hogwarts. Besides, wanting to fly doesn't mean he wanted to play Quidditch, If he's jealous of James for anything, I think it would be about Lily. Even then, both Sirius and Lupin know that he was bullied and they don't bring up that James bullied him until Harry sees it for himself.
x2 1) If someone learns boxing, does that automatically make them the bad guy? If someone learns to shoot, does that automatically make them the bad guy?
2) The bullying started on the train before they knew anything about him besides his name and that he wanted to go to Slytherin. Sirius and James bash him for it and (by proxy) his family, because he said they all went there. In retaliation he bashes Gryffindor. Sirius calls him stupid and cowardly. Seeing what's happening, Lily says they should move to another compartment. As he's leaving James tries to trip him and we hear them call him Snivellus. Even if learning the Dark Arts was a reason that he deserved to be bullied, that's not what it's about.
Anyways, I think Snape is very flawed. He's petty, rude, vindictive and he bullies his students. I just don't see a way to read Snapes Worst Memory and take that James and Sirius were the good guys there.
edited 4th Oct '15 1:13:54 PM by 940131
"Also getting really into the Dark Arts, which Sirius cites as why James hated Snape so much"
I dont buy because it valides James bullying to him, maybe pro-james argument tend to Play Snape flaw into the point the only error in James is that he didnt pick him harder, that is...fuck up to said the least.
"Dudley turned out to be the best of the Dursleys at the end. Even Draco Malfoy is pathetic and sad when faced against a bigger bully, Voldemort. Snape himself is a horribly bully to Harry and Neville all his years and then of course he was a victim himself"
And how they stop being bullys: Dudley finally have a glance of what Harry have to deal and understood how petty it was, Draco was just a Bully but dosent have the stomach and lack of heart to be a Death eater, Snape craves power but when that power dosent offer what he wants he turn away.
Also there is a diferent between Snape-James and Harry-Draco: Snape rage at James is that he was better than him in almost everything, for havinf a group of friend to impress Lily, while Draco use his money most of the time to show off, is a subtle more important diference here
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
A procrastination in of itself
Someone asked why Dumbledore wasn't the Potter's Secret Keeper, my memory and the Harry Potter wiki both say that he offered, but they said no because they wanted to trust one of their friends.
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
Absolutely no relation to NLK
So, to summarize the last half dozen pages: people be complicated. You can be a victim and also an asshole, you can be a bully and also a decent fellow outside of that, you can change course and become a better person, you can do good while still being a total asshole, you can rise above your past or be defined by it. For all the flaws the Harry Potter series has, Rowling can write some damn good characters.
Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
I also consider Snape a right bastard in many ways. Respecting someone doesn't require that you like them.
edited 4th Oct '15 4:31:00 AM by rikalous