William lulzblogs Chick Tracts because he hates himself

pvtnum: No, you're fine. It's just a little odd that a thread about someone as, well, bitter as Chick would turn out so genial; that said, we're nice people here for the most part.

pvtnum: Yeah. I agree with what you say for the most part.

You know, it's so nice to see religious discussions meander this way. Many other fora would implode after the first ten posts or so.

I've been resolutely atheistic for years now, but I continued volunteering with the Methodist church in my hometown and attending their services. Say what you will about the scientific sphere, but we're certainly capable of getting along in person, and I really wish more people would make an effort. /rant

I have never liked marriage as a way to God, I mean nine hells, it wasn't until the 1300's that the church even really got involved in marriages.

Must admit I have never even HEARD of Song of Songs... I tend to find christian literature a triffle off putting. That is just me though, I do wish to have a talk to C.S. Lewis about the "great divorce" however.

Also, I have to ask, what happens to good people (like Bertrand Russel and I hope myself) when they die but don't believe in God? Why is there a divine figure that would condemn us for doing good but not for lauding Him?

I tend to have these thoughts often, and I do hope I am not offending anyone by asking this.

Song of Songs is a book of the bible.

It's a big giant love poem. And then a bit of a sex poem.

Hmmm, might have to do some research on that.

I thought it might be a book like the Narnia stuff, I do apoligise.

edited 4th Dec '09 3:05:44 PM by Josef Bugman

No prob, it's a bit obscure.

The puritans didn't let underage girls read it, but it's really quite tame.

'Your breasts are like running antelope' and all that jazz.

• snerk*

Awhhhh thats a cross between cute and just a really really bad metaphor.

I'm afraid to ask how, exactly, they're alike. I'm thinking hairy, springy, or devoured by lions.

Hence bad metaphor, I was thinking "bouncy" myself.

edited 4th Dec '09 3:12:40 PM by Josef Bugman

I'm thinking bouncy.

-wicked grin-

Anyway, I figure the metaphors made more sense before they were translated.

I beleive they didn't let unmarried Jewish women read it, either, but I might be wrong.... It happens.

I think Nietzche would agree.

Also I can't quite understand that, if its a love poem (all be it with saucy bits) then surely its a good thing to read?

edited 4th Dec '09 3:14:54 PM by Josef Bugman

-wicked grin-

Eh wut?

Also, most of the metaphors make more sense, that's just the one that stuck out.

It's a conversation between a woman, a man, and male and female commenters.

It's not something I think you should keep people from reading. If they're too young it will just go over their heads.

edited 4th Dec '09 3:16:09 PM by Katrika

I suppose I should say something about good people. Well, I'll try, anyway. I hope this doesn't get messy, and I hope I don't sound too preachy.

The problem is thus: God ain't like us. He is 100-percent holy, and can't let non-holy things in His presence. We're not holy. Our hearts are deceitful and wicked - I never had to teach my toddler to lie, but she's doing it anyway. I am FAR from perfet and holy, not by a longshot, even today. To believe, as I once did, that if we're good enough is all we need to get in, we've disregarded that fact that He is holy and we're not. Sin is literally "missing the mark". Our feeble efforts will always fall short. You can thank Adam and Eve for that, as their transgression allowed our nature to fall to where it is today. Of course, that wsa the risk He had to take in making a creature like us wiht Free Will, that we would choose WRONG.

However, Jesus shed His blood so it can cover our transgressions. God won't see our sinful nature, He'll see the blood instead. As God once required Israel to sacrifice to atone for sins, He made the biggest and best sacrific of them all - and whoever accept that sacrifice as being made for them personally, get's the stamp of approval.

If being good was all that was required, then His death would have been not needed. Indeed, the Jews had the Law to follow, and that didn't work. The Law was not intended to give us a way to heaven, it was intended to show just how crazy Nintendo Hard it is to be perfect, and that we al fall short.

We have the free will to do what we like with it, He will NOT violate our free will by shoving it down our throat. So, He'll let us choose, and then, He'll honor that choice. If that means that I choose to flip Him the bird and tell Him to go away, He'll honor that, and give me what I want - life without Him - and I'll spend an eternity without Him.

The problem is, once death comes, it's too late to change our mind.

How'd I do? Do I need an asbestos jumpsuit now?

pvtnum: Nope, you did good. Better then I could say it.

...now if I can only work up the courage to say it to people face-to-face a bit more often... Seriously, a lot of lonely hurting people around here in Hawaii.

How would you define "holiness" then?

And how do you account for people who (in previous times and in previous epochs) who had never heard of Jesus?

And it God is so keen on us to worship Him, why would he then allow humanity to populate the world with other faiths? Why would He, in his infinite wisdom choose to create various different paths or create those worms that live in peoples eyes, all of it probably serves a purpose, but I am just slightly skeptical about it.

And I won't roast you alive or start breaking out the Torches and pitchforks, its just that the worldview you have is so different to my own, I will always find it fascinating.

There is provision to those who never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel (or lived before it was brought about), but I can't seem to remember the scripture. Jews had the promise of the coming Messiah to inspire them, and the ongoing temple sacrifices served as a stop-gap.

But yeah, holiness. Big concept for me to tackle, but here goes.

Saintly, consecreted, pure, pious, dedicated to God, devout, sacred, the quality of being holy, (yes I'm stealing out of a dictionary) having a spiritually pure quality, and I'll add, doing all of the above 100-percent of the time, even when no one's looking.

Especially when no one's looking. I've met some people who were pretty close to it, but God doesn't grade on a curve.

I fail, by the way. Trust me, BIG subject, and I'm woefully inadequate to explain.

Oops, forgot. Other faiths. Here's a little story I heard once. Lucifer and one of his fallen angels were out walking the Earth, and they saw a piece of truth fall from Heaven and land near them. Without hesitating, Lucifer picked it up and stuck it in the folds of his cloak. Perplexed, the fallen angel asked him, "Master, that was a piece of the truth! What will you ever do with it?" Lucifer smiled and said... "I'll wrap it in lies and call it a religion."

All goes back to free will, He'll let us believe what we want. If you choose to be an atheist, so be it, I got no beef with you over your choice.

edited 4th Dec '09 4:27:58 PM by pvtnum11

Yeah. If you want to know more about this train of thought, you should go to a church or something.

Not to convert, but to ask. My church, I know, would be happy to answer any questions, even if you only wanted to know the answers intellectualy and had no plan to convert.

edited 4th Dec '09 4:24:00 PM by Katrika

Saintly, consecreted, pure, pious, dedicated to God, devout, sacred, the quality of being holy, (yes I'm stealing out of a dictionary) having a spiritually pure quality, and I'll add, doing all of the above 100-percent of the time, even when no one's looking.

So who gets to set the definition of "holiness"?

God, right?

If the upshot of all this is that God is 100% godly by God's own rules, and humans are not...I'm not impressed.

I will never again be a Christian because I cannot accept as "good" and "loving" a being who sets an impossible standard for humanity to live up to (having known from the beginning of time that it would be impossible), makes us grovel in order to grant us an exception, and then uses the fact that he granted the exception as "proof" that he "loves" us. That's not love; it's extortion.

Grovel? We don't grovel.

Have you ever read the Sinner's Prayer?

Was it in the Bible?

Because groveling isn't required, I don't think.

I hope not, I like to chat to God all casual.