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math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#1151: Sep 9th 2016 at 10:05:10 AM

[up] That argument only holds any water so long as you presuppose that numbers sold = quality.

In which case, A Game of Thrones is about 50 times better than, say, The Lies of Locke Lamora.

edited 9th Sep '16 10:06:05 AM by math792d

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#1152: Sep 9th 2016 at 11:09:05 AM

Which is not an inarguable position. Anyway, further thoughts:

  • Verin is fucking awesome.
  • Rand is such a well written character, like damn. Balefiring Graendal's fortress and using that random noble as bait was both horrifying and badass, mostly the former.
  • Honestly, if people here hadn't kept on harping about it I wouldn't have noticed anything amiss with Mat's "character sheets", or his character in general.

edited 9th Sep '16 2:21:05 PM by Ninety

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
Bense from 1827/Sol/Solomani Rim Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
#1153: Sep 9th 2016 at 12:14:36 PM

That argument only holds any water so long as you presuppose that numbers sold = quality.

Like I said, you could argue it, but I won't.

“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.” -Philip K. Dick
rikalous World's Cutest Direwolf from Upscale Mordor Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
World's Cutest Direwolf
#1154: Sep 9th 2016 at 12:46:45 PM

[up][up]I don't have anything like math's issues with New Mat, and it actually took me a while to notice the change at first, but now I can't unsee it.

Verin is fucking awesome.
Highlighting this statement to acknowledge the supernal truth of it.

math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#1155: Sep 9th 2016 at 1:17:11 PM

Which is not an inarguable position. Anyway, further thoughts:

By the same token Wheel of Time as a series would be about 20 times better than the entirety of The Dresden Files.

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#1156: Sep 9th 2016 at 2:20:41 PM

No, I mean that GOT is better than Locke Lamora.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
kegisak Element of Class Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Element of Class
#1157: Sep 9th 2016 at 2:37:23 PM

'Good' is always kind of difficult to define for media, since subjectivity exists. Even if you're going by 'the rules', half the reason rules exist is so that you can break them creatively. The best you can measure is, "How well do the things interact with one another"/"How well does it achieve its goals.

...And I've just now realized that was a comment about Units As Quality, not a comment on their actual comparative quality.

IGNORE ME

Birthright: an original web novel about Dragons, the Burdens of Leadership, and Mangoes.
Robbery Since: Jul, 2012
#1158: Sep 10th 2016 at 12:40:09 PM

Arguing from an objective standpoint, like determining how well the series is constructed, and you'd just have to admit that WOT is bloated, sometimes confusingly so, and frequently slow, and a number of plot threads are tied up very abruptly after Sanderson took over (The Prophet? Padan Fain?) You can, and many do, say the same about any number of avowed "great" works of literature. It's still a great fantasy series, just a flawed one (which is fine). I like it better than, say, the much more focusedThe Belgariad which I do like, by the way.

edited 10th Sep '16 12:40:50 PM by Robbery

Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#1159: Sep 10th 2016 at 1:05:34 PM

Yeah, not getting in to the whole "what is quality, really?" thing, WOT is a very flawed series.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#1160: Sep 12th 2016 at 9:10:25 AM

Finished The Gathering Storm. Man, what a step up in quality. Closing off plot threads, much story progression, character arcs, and interesting scenes galore! Assorted thoughts:

  • Rand. Seriously, my favorite character in the series. Not because he's especially likeable, but because of how well he's written. Never could've seen the direction his character would take starting from the assembly-line fantasy protagonist of the first book. Also, LET IT GOOO~~~
  • The Seanchan continue to be very interesting. Really one of the more creative and unique fantasy cultures I've seen, and they really are pretty swell if you ignore the whole incredible self-righteousness and suspiciously convenient prophecies. Oh, and the whole turning people into basically mindless pets. Goddamn that gets me riled up.
  • Egwene went from being awful to being pretty damn cool. Putting a character up against bigger assholes and having them be competent is a nice way to make them likable. At least that damn subplot is finally over. Gonna have to wait and see how she actually interacts with the other main characters, though. Being made the second most powerful person in the world doesn't do wonders for curing entitlement.
  • Mat didn't do that much, but he's always great. Looking forward to that damn Snakes and Foxes subplot finally going somewhere, though.
  • Perrin: still meh. It really hammered (heh) home how he and Faile have like absolutely no chemistry whatsoever. If I ever saw a friend of mine in a relationship like that I'd tell him to run for the hills. Masema's subplot was rather unsatisfying, really felt like it was just to keep Perrin doing something while the rest of the characters actually moved the plot.
  • Semirhage was broken a bit too easily for plausibility, in my opinion.
  • Cadsuane still sucks. I hate her a tiny bit less, on account of competence, but damn if I wouldn't be glad never to read another page with her on it.
  • On that note, joining the list of Characters Who Are Awesome: Verin, as mentioned before, and Tam, Best Dad.
  • On the other hand, why does Gawyn exist. The only reason Perrin/Faile isn't the worst romance in the series is because we have to suffer him.
  • As for Rand's Angels, Aviendha had a mini plot that didn't matter much, Min remains the best, and Elayne didn't show up at all and wasn't missed.

    I think that's everyone. I only have so much space in my head.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
Robbery Since: Jul, 2012
#1161: Sep 12th 2016 at 10:14:47 AM

One of the minor points as we encounter more of the Forsaken is that, while powerful, a lot of them aren't particularly all that impressive individuals, or even all that interesting. Jordan really brings home the notion of the banality of evil. They tend to be petty jerks who are scared of the dark.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#1162: Sep 12th 2016 at 10:53:55 AM

I actually sort of liked how a lot of the Forsaken ended up being fairly underwhelming. It was part them being built up as unstoppable bogeymen for thousands of years, and part the White Tower spending most of those thousands of years doing their best to neuter themselves.

Wasn't it actually implied at some point that the Forsaken weren't actually the Dark One's most powerful servants or anything, they're just the ones that managed to survive?

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
MasterGhandalf Since: Jul, 2009
#1163: Sep 12th 2016 at 11:11:43 AM

We know that there were a lot more Forsaken in the Age of Legends (IIRC, Moghedien mentions that the Dark One gifted the True Power to around thirty people at that time). Word of God indicates that the Forsaken we know were just the ones who happened to be at Shayol Ghul when the seals went up, and that while that included some of the most powerful (apparently Ishamael, Lanfear, Demandred, Graendal, Sammael, and Semirhage were always big deals), the rest were a fairly random sampling. In-universe mythology took those thirteen and made them into something much more impressive than they actually were.

''All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us..."
Robbery Since: Jul, 2012
#1164: Sep 12th 2016 at 11:25:30 AM

Was Ishamael contained? Didn't he visit Lews Therin ant what became Dragonmount after the seals went up? Or could he touch the world because he was closest to the breach (or something)?

edited 12th Sep '16 11:25:45 AM by Robbery

math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#1165: Sep 12th 2016 at 11:38:03 AM

The reason I love Rand so much is because it's obvious that, all at once, his worst enemy is both himself and the Aes Sedai. On the one hand, the Aes Sedai very clearly want to push him around and make sure that whatever shackles the Dragon breaks, they'll still end up on top.

At the same time, however, the fact that he's so stubborn, contrarian and, to some extent, heroic, he ends up putting far too many burdens on his own shoulders and believes that just because he's the Dragon, he needs to single-handedly save the world and spare as many people from the pain of this conflict as possible, not realizing that many of the people around him are more than willing to put their lives on the line for his cause. And his haste to end the war and make sure the world is ready results in him doing a great many stupid things, but considering the burden he has to bear, I don't blame him. Dude was a farmboy from Bumfuck, Nowhere before he was suddenly the most important man of his Age.

A lot of people prop him up as a deconstruction of the Chosen One, and I don't think that's true - he's not enough of an out-and-out complete asshole to deconstruct it. But he has a very human response to the idea of being the Dragon, this equal parts beloved and reviled Messiah figure, destined to reshape the world in ways both good and bad.

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
Robbery Since: Jul, 2012
#1166: Sep 12th 2016 at 11:44:57 AM

Rand is Lews Theris, the Dragon, and (and this is interesting) The Lord of the Morning. Which sounds a great deal like Lucifer Morningstar, and Loki Skywalker, and invokes Prometheus as well. He's fighting the Dark One, sure, but in doing so he brings change, and chaos. He's "bringing light" but that cuts both ways.

MasterGhandalf Since: Jul, 2009
#1167: Sep 12th 2016 at 11:48:19 AM

[up][up][up]Ishamael was partially contained; apparently he was right on the edge of what the seals contained, so he'd be free for a while, then pulled back into the Bore for a while, repeat. We know he was loose during the beginning of the Breaking (when he met LTT), during the Trolloc Wars, during Hawkwing's time, and finally during the lead-up to the main series. However, he would have spent at least part of the intervening years bound and in stasis; the WOT wiki discusses how this may have worked in greater detail. When Moiraine interrogates Fain she actually learns a bit about what his unsealing process is probably like - at first Ish couldn't leave Shayol Ghul and Fain had to meet him there, then he could make himself appear in a sort of flickering form at Shadar Logoth (using the True Power?) and finally he was free to show up physically wherever he wanted to.

edited 12th Sep '16 11:48:31 AM by MasterGhandalf

''All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us..."
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#1168: Sep 12th 2016 at 4:37:12 PM

I get the point that the Forsaken weren't all that, it's just that Semirhage went from "cower at my feet lowly worms" to "literally eating food off the floor of her own volition" in like ten minutes and a spanking. Would've been better to draw it out a bit, in my opinion.

Also what Math said.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
rikalous World's Cutest Direwolf from Upscale Mordor Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
World's Cutest Direwolf
#1169: Sep 12th 2016 at 4:58:22 PM

'S the dark side of the way everything starts moving faster and plotlines wrap themselves up once Sanderson takes over.

while that included some of the most powerful (apparently Ishamael, Lanfear, Demandred, Graendal, Sammael, and Semirhage were always big deals), the rest were a fairly random sampling.
Demandred, Samirhage, and not Mesaana were big deals, huh? Surprised me considering they've got like the only functional alliance among the Forsaken. Though on second thought it's pretty fitting that during the War Mesaana was, once again, overlooked compared to her colleagues.

MasterGhandalf Since: Jul, 2009
#1170: Sep 12th 2016 at 5:48:57 PM

Here's Jordan's quote on the matter, taken from Theoryland: With the Forsaken, where treachery and backstabbing were an acceptable way of getting ahead, the turnover in the upper ranks was fairly high, though Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Graendal, Semirhage, and later Sammael, were always at the top end of the pyramid. They were very skilled at personal survival, politically and physically.

Personally, I always saw Mesaana as the Boring, but Practical of the bunch; she gets the job done but she's not very flashy about it, and I can see that she'd not waste as much of her time as the others on internal squabbling and that the Dark One, who generally prefers lieutenants who are a bit more... erratic, wouldn't go out of its way to promote her.

edited 12th Sep '16 5:49:17 PM by MasterGhandalf

''All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us..."
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#1171: Sep 12th 2016 at 6:04:18 PM

She was pretty much the most effective one, too. What, one in five Aes Sedai were Black? No wonder the Whitecloaks had such a stick up their asses, even if by complete coincidence.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#1172: Sep 26th 2016 at 10:29:13 AM

Finished Towers of Midnight. Gonna take a break before the last one, but at least things are ramping up. Assorted thoughts below, expect spoilers.

  • Remember how Rand became my favorite character after he started going nuts and tortured and interesting? Well, Zen Rand is even better. Borderline story-breaker messiah, but damn, we've earned it. Could read another book before the last titled "Rand 'ports around the world and fixes everything". Also, flowers literally bloom where he walks, like c'mon.
  • Perrin finally stopped being an utter bore! I get that the payoff is better if there's a lot of buildup, but I still could've used two or three less books of his whinging. Twist with Boundless was nice, as was his showing at the White Tower knowing more about Dreaming than Egwene.
  • Speaking of Egwene, mostly continues on what the previous book built. Now properly high-and-might and competent, not terribly interesting. Was fun to see her interview with Rand though. I'm a tiny bit annoyed at how when Rand said he planned to break the seals, even explaining his reasoning, her immediate answer was "nah fuck that that's dumb even if I and almost everyone else know literally nothing about the Dark One and his prison" and started raising an army to stop him. I get that they needed to set the whole thing up to lead to the Last Battle, but not a fan of the framing. Also, talk about blue balls, like seven hundred pages talking up the meeting only to drop a To Be Continued!.
  • Gawyn still fucking sucks.
  • Cadsuane was mostly absent except for a polite verbal bitchslapping from Rand, and the book was more enjoyable for it.
  • Not terribly sympathetic towards the Borderlanders, considering how they abandoned their homes to fall and faffed around for what, three books? Prophecies are never terribly interesting as a motivation.
  • Speaking of prophecies, apparently those of the Shadow in the epilogue failed, since Perrin didn't die. Was he the Broken Wolf? Also, this series' tendency to awkwardly shoehorn some subtitle that has almost nothing to do with the main plot continues. Weren't the Towers of Midnight a Seanchan thing?
  • Segue! Aviendha's visions of the fall of the Aiel were really damn well written. The reverse chronological order of the choices of Aviendha's children and grandchildren instigating and losing a war against the Seanchan till the Aiel turned into homeless mindless vagrants that mostly starved was hard to read. She didn't do much else, but hey. Who was that woman who met with her before Rhuidean, again?
  • Min existed mostly as a viewpoint in order not to get Rand's inner monologue, but hey, she's still great. One of the very few believable romances in the series. The reunion between Rand and Tam hit me hard.
  • Elayne sure existed. Her plot was mostly tying up loose ends. Nothing terribly interesting, although I'm a pretty big fan of plots of Medieval Stasis being broken. The letter from Verin and failed warning of the assault on Caemlyn was... a bit dumb.
  • Mat! More or less the protagonist here. I noticed some of the un-Mat-like behaviour written by Sanderson (the letter was awful), but a lot of it was great. Finally got around to the damn Tower of Genjei and rescuing Moiraine plot, about time. Gholam was kinda anticlimactic. Noel "Who didn't figure out like three books ago that he was Jain" Farstrider was a bit of a waste of a character. Shame we didn't see more of Tuon and him. And I'd heard he would never meet up again with the other characters, so him seeing Elayne and Perrin again was welcome. Also, I'm no doctor, but I'm pretty sure getting your eye ripped off should be met with more than a minute of screaming and an "eh, whatever" later. Rand at least had an excuse.
  • Speaking of Seanchan: still super interesting. Fascinating culture, very creative, you kinda want to support them because of how much better they make the standard of living for anywhere they conquer, but the damane system is one of the most fucked up things in the series. The turning of people into fucking animals, and it being a cultural cornerstone for them, is damn disturbing, but in a good way. Gets me good. Also, their prophecies (ugh) conveniently saying that her Empress is the most awesomest and will boss around the Dragon Reborn are hella convenient. And according to Aviendha's visions result in the Aiel being wiped out. Fun!
  • Nynaeve continues being one of the most sympathetic Aes Sedai. Healing madness is one of the most awesome things in the book.
  • Lan is uncharacteristically immature. Self-righteous suicide, as they say, is so last Age dude.
  • Jury's still out on Androl. Looks likeable enough but I hear he has a bit too much spotlight in the last book, which is already gonna be cramped.
  • Whitecloak plot was tied off nicely. Galad is likeable enough. Him and Berelain is shallow, as par for the course, but at least believable in that they are basically the two hottest people in the world and fell for each other at first sight, so whatever. I'm just glad we're done with the Templar zealot analogues, which are about half a step up from twirling moustaches and tying damsels to train tracks. And of course, the most zealot-y who tried to stab Perrin in the back was a puppet of the Forsaken, lovely.
  • Moiraine got to see all her kids again. Was afraid she wouldn't.
  • Faile. Who cares.

    I think that's about it. Next one in a while. Man, this damn series took me ages to read.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
rikalous World's Cutest Direwolf from Upscale Mordor Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
World's Cutest Direwolf
#1173: Sep 26th 2016 at 12:52:37 PM

Ta'veren making marriages spontaneously happen around them was established way back when, so you can blame a lot of the romances - Galad and Berelain included - on causality-warping main character bullshit if so inclined.

edited 26th Sep '16 12:53:27 PM by rikalous

32ndfreeze from Australia Since: Mar, 2012
#1174: Sep 26th 2016 at 6:21:28 PM

The Fertile Feet of Rand is explained somewhere. But I can't remember if it's a throwaway line in Towers of Midnight or A Memory of Light.

I just remember I missed in on my read and only found out from the trope page.

Don't read these Ninety.

With the Seanchan. Did anyone else get the feeling had Robert Jordan been able to continue the series we probably would have had an arc with Mat and others ending up in the Seanchan capital. Especially with how many times the location of the Towers of Midnight was mentioned.

There was even that prophecy somewhere about the the Imperial family returning to "right what went wrong." Although given the way the final book ends that could very well be referring to a dissolution of the damane system in the future.

edited 26th Sep '16 6:21:55 PM by 32ndfreeze

"But if that happened, Melia might actually be happy. We can't have that." - Handsome Rob
rikalous World's Cutest Direwolf from Upscale Mordor Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
World's Cutest Direwolf
#1175: Sep 26th 2016 at 10:02:56 PM

The explanation is that the Dark One's fucking with things to make the plants die and Rand's presence restores the natural order of things, right?

On the spoiler bits, I would have been hella down for a visit to Seanchan. I'm with Ninety on being suspicious of their oh-so-convenient prophecies, though.

The turning of people into fucking animals, and it being a cultural cornerstone for them, is damn disturbing, but in a good way.
Oh yeah, forgot to mention. I actually find it more disturbing how broken down their normal slaves are, as exemplified by ex-Panarch Amathera. Can't even justify that by claiming that the victims are too dangerous not to dehumanize.


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