Needs Cleaning Up: Humans Are Bastards

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That argument seems to boil down to: it's a subtrope of Crapsack World. I don't agree (though I suspect that any counter-examples would be farce, and only justified by Rule of Funny), but even if I accept that it's a subtrope, that doesn't make it not a perfectly valid subtrope. Not all Crapsack Worlds have "people are bastards" as part of their premise. Sometimes, it's just ordinary people trying to get along in a world turned to crap.
This. And conversely, perhaps a work can portray people as being bastards, but also this as being relatively inconsequential, in involving a setting otherwise more idealized than many works involving more optimistic portrayals of human nature.
"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart
So, uh... Apart from Xanatos Gambit, which I think has a "no touchy" sign on it, I don't think there are many other tropes this misused for this long that has had this much discussion with no resolution (especially with "do nothing" voted down so overwhelmingly).

We can do this!
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
Crowner needs more votes.
304 Tyoria31st Oct 2011 03:52:39 PM from Portland, Oregon
rationally insane
We didn't hit 2:1, so... I dunno.
I think for page action crowners, a 2:1 supermajority isn't strictly necessary. Besides, "do nothing" is a crowner option, and it's got negative votes.

Still, waiting to see if we get more votes wouldn't hurt.

Or we could do a runoff crowner with just the positive options.

edited 31st Oct '11 4:11:39 PM by MetaFour

Could we just... not have Death anymore?
If I made a good pitch that "people are bastards" is a trope, would it help?
307 nrjxll31st Oct 2011 06:16:47 PM , Relationship Status: Not war
I doubt it - that argument has been made many times already.
2:1 should not be required for this. Multiple options were presented including not doing anything, an option that failed. Thus, split won the crowner.
Not that I would mind that happening at this point, but is there any "official" rule on such a situation?
You cannot decide binary issues with a multiple choice crowner. It confuses people. They aren't sure what they are voting for or against.

To clarify matters here, run the top item — the 'split it' option — as a single prop crowner and see how it does.
Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty

Ooookay... Should we do it? If we do, do we assume that the other courses of actions (including "do nothing") are officially out of the question?
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
[up]Someone needs to write and hook a Crowner asking if we should spit "humans are bastards" into two tropes; people are generally nasty and unhelpful (of any race, technically) versus the alien perspective that the Planet of Hats of human beings is to treat other people in a cruel manner.

If that fails, we go down the list of alternative actions.

edited 27th Nov '11 3:01:40 PM by crazysamaritan

Wow. That was rude. Too many of this kind of thump will bring a suspension. Please keep it civil.Thumped.
EDIT: [up] Well, nevermind then.

edited 3rd Dec '11 10:24:45 PM by SeanMurrayI

Of all the stale threads, this is the one with the most replies.

Yet I think it would be a huge mistake to close this (unless it's to start up a fresh thread), considering how roundly "do nothing" was voted down on the crowner. On the other hand, it seems that there's an impasse on whether "humans are bastards in general" is tropeable or not. With that disagreement still extant, there's not a lot that can be done to progress.

Perhaps we should have a crowner on the above issue alone? Mods, what do you think?
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
The split option is currently at 40:20. Is it time to call?
317 DragonQuestZ5th Jan 2012 08:11:34 AM from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
Yeah. But I say the new name should be Humans Are the Real Monsters, because it's a variation of a phrased used in some movies.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
[up][up]Another sudden "nay" vote, and that option wouldn't be able to pass. Keep it open for another day, I say. If the tally is unchanged, or solidifies anything beyond the minimum 2.00:1 majority, then I'd call it in favor of the split.

edited 5th Jan '12 9:12:41 AM by SeanMurrayI

319 DragonQuestZ5th Jan 2012 09:20:04 AM from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
This is a page action, not a single prop. One vote would not negate the clear lead over the other options.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
320 Deboss5th Jan 2012 10:23:36 PM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
Hm, I like the idea of a Humans Are the Real Monsters idea.
Avatars may be subject to change without notice.
I take it you mean Humans Are the Real Monsters for the new humans vs. nonhumans subtrope?
"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart
322 DragonQuestZ6th Jan 2012 06:52:19 AM from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
vigilantly taxonomish
Calling the crowner in favour of splitting Humans Are Bastards, retaining the Trope Decayed definition while creating a new page to house the original definition.
I still maintain that the Trope Decayed definition wouldn't be an actual trope. People doing bad things to other people just isn't very noteworthy in and of itself. In fact, this would probably lead to more of a YMMV concept, since it would involve individual editors themselves making the point about people being bastards, based solely on how they interpret characters' actions or behavior. It wouldn't necessarily be a point made in the work itself.

At the very least, describing a person bemoaning or making some kind of observation on the fact that people do bad things to other people (like in the "gray area" examples I've noted in the OP) would be something good to aim for.

[down]That, too. My point is that Humans Are Bastards is inherently an opinion; as such, to be a trope, it should be limited to that opinion being directly conveyed In-Universe, either through stated messages and dialogue (all of the "gray area" examples I've mentioned) or through allegory and symbolism (like in Lord of the Flies).

edited 6th Jan '12 10:25:53 AM by SeanMurrayI

325 DragonQuestZ6th Jan 2012 10:09:09 AM from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
Or claiming that humans are inherently evil.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

Alternative Titles: Humans Are Bastards
24th Feb '12 7:38:44 AM
Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the title will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative titles.
At issue:
What do we rename Humans Are Bastards, the trope meaning "humans are bastards compared to other sapient species"?

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