This. And conversely, perhaps a work can portray people as being bastards, but also this as being relatively inconsequential, in involving a setting otherwise more idealized than many works involving more optimistic portrayals of human nature.

So, uh... Apart from Xanatos Gambit, which I think has a "no touchy" sign on it, I don't think there are many other tropes this misused for this long that has had this much discussion with no resolution (especially with "do nothing" voted down so overwhelmingly).

We can do this!

Crowner needs more votes.

We didn't hit 2:1, so... I dunno.

I think for page action crowners, a 2:1 supermajority isn't strictly necessary. Besides, "do nothing" is a crowner option, and it's got negative votes.

Still, waiting to see if we get more votes wouldn't hurt.

Or we could do a runoff crowner with just the positive options.

edited 31st Oct '11 4:11:39 PM by MetaFour

If I made a good pitch that "people are bastards" is a trope, would it help?

I doubt it - that argument has been made many times already.

2:1 should not be required for this. Multiple options were presented including not doing anything, an option that failed. Thus, split won the crowner.

Not that I would mind that happening at this point, but is there any "official" rule on such a situation?

You cannot decide binary issues with a multiple choice crowner. It confuses people. They aren't sure what they are voting for or against.

To clarify matters here, run the top item — the 'split it' option — as a single prop crowner and see how it does.

Ooookay... Should we do it? If we do, do we assume that the other courses of actions (including "do nothing") are officially out of the question?

Someone needs to write and hook a Crowner asking if we should spit "humans are bastards" into two tropes; people are generally nasty and unhelpful (of any race, technically) versus the alien perspective that the Planet of Hats of human beings is to treat other people in a cruel manner.

If that fails, we go down the list of alternative actions.

edited 27th Nov '11 3:01:40 PM by crazysamaritan

EDIT: Well, nevermind then.

edited 3rd Dec '11 10:24:45 PM by SeanMurrayI

Of all the stale threads, this is the one with the most replies.

Yet I think it would be a huge mistake to close this (unless it's to start up a fresh thread), considering how roundly "do nothing" was voted down on the crowner. On the other hand, it seems that there's an impasse on whether "humans are bastards in general" is tropeable or not. With that disagreement still extant, there's not a lot that can be done to progress.

Perhaps we should have a crowner on the above issue alone? Mods, what do you think?

The split option is currently at 40:20. Is it time to call?

Yeah. But I say the new name should be Humans Are The Real Monsters, because it's a variation of a phrased used in some movies.

Another sudden "nay" vote, and that option wouldn't be able to pass. Keep it open for another day, I say. If the tally is unchanged, or solidifies anything beyond the minimum 2.00:1 majority, then I'd call it in favor of the split.

edited 5th Jan '12 9:12:41 AM by SeanMurrayI

This is a page action, not a single prop. One vote would not negate the clear lead over the other options.

Hm, I like the idea of a Humans Are The Real Monsters idea.

I take it you mean Humans Are The Real Monsters for the new humans vs. nonhumans subtrope?

Yes.

Calling the crowner in favour of splitting Humans Are Bastards, retaining the Trope Decayed definition while creating a new page to house the original definition.

I still maintain that the Trope Decayed definition wouldn't be an actual trope. People doing bad things to other people just isn't very noteworthy in and of itself. In fact, this would probably lead to more of a YMMV concept, since it would involve individual editors themselves making the point about people being bastards, based solely on how they interpret characters' actions or behavior. It wouldn't necessarily be a point made in the work itself.

At the very least, describing a person bemoaning or making some kind of observation on the fact that people do bad things to other people (like in the "gray area" examples I've noted in the OP) would be something good to aim for.

That, too. My point is that Humans Are Bastards is inherently an opinion; as such, to be a trope, it should be limited to that opinion being directly conveyed In-Universe, either through stated messages and dialogue (all of the "gray area" examples I've mentioned) or through allegory and symbolism (like in Lord of the Flies).

edited 6th Jan '12 10:25:53 AM by SeanMurrayI

Or claiming that humans are inherently evil.