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Illegal Immigration - racism's new refuge?

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SomeGuy Some Guy from totally uncool town Since: Jan, 2001
Some Guy
#1: Feb 2nd 2010 at 7:44:39 PM

I had a very interesting experience at jury duty today.

Everything was going pretty much as per regular. The guy was accused of, as near as we all could tell from how every fact of the case was couched in vague hypotheticals, driving drunk, running away, and resisting arrest. The public defender's apparent defense from how he handled jury selection seemed to be that the police used excessive force and drummed up extra charges to justify it. But all of that is window dressing. Here's where things got interesting.

A few hours into the proceedings of fairly mundane activity (the public defender kept asking questions, with the occasional recusal owing to things like strong opinions about drunk drivers or the one thing who was first cousin once-removed to the second chair prosecutor), an iffy topic came up. Illegal immigration. See, the accused had to have a court translator present. The public defender had been asking prospective jurors whether they thought this would influence their ability to objectively judge the case. There hadn't been any problems until this one guy brought up how he thought illegal immigrants were bad and was surprised that they even had the rights to things like trials in this country (!).

This caused, well, a slow but perpetually speeding shitstorm. Apparently some of the jurors, who had simply assumed the defendant must be in the country legally now wanted to know whether he was an illegal. This information, you all understand, had absolutely nothing to do with the charges. But now, to a ridiculous number of the prospective jury, this was a big deal.

People kept getting repeatedly recused due to their not being sure they could fairly deliberate on the fate of a person who may or may not be an illegal immigrant. Until, eventually, the public defender just got tired of the legal mantra and just said "look, let's say hypothetically the defendant is an illegal immigrant. Is there anybody here who would have trouble fairly deliberating this case?". At this point it looks like, hey, problem solved. Except one guy who had really been harping on the issue didn't raise his hand. And the public defender was incredulous. "All right, it bothers you that you might not know whether he's an illegal immigrant or not, but assuming he is you still think you can do it fairly?" And then the guy jumps through logical hoops explaining how, exactly, he can be fair and impartial when he's insisting on knowing this one fact which doesn't have a single thing to do with the charges that have actually been brought.

So then, the public defender asks another guy with his hand up about illegal immigrants and the guy says "well, I think it's weird that this guy gets a trial with our tax dollars" and the public defender just throws him up his hands and says "oh, great. So that means it's OK for him to be beaten by the police." Then he very curtly requests a recusal from the judge. Lawyers heads into chambers, and when they come out, the judge apologizes for wasting everyone's time, but he has to call a mistrial because we're at the point where it's impossible to tell just how many people would hold it against the guy that he may or may not be an illegal immigrant, but simply won't admit to it.

The funny thing about all this is that the public defender was relatively cool as long as people were being open with their feelings. As in "I don't think I can be fair knowing that this guy might be an illegal immigrant". He just got increasingly flustered as jurors kept getting on a soapbox about how they disliked illegal immigration even though, again, whether or not the guy is an illegal immigrant had nothing to do with the charges against him.

Where am I going with this..? Well, one line spoken by a recused juror really stuck out in the proceedings-

Well, does he speak Spanish or Mexican?

...Which, as you can guess, was so out of left field that the public defender had no idea what to even say to it, and sort of just looked at the floor for several seconds. I nearly laughed, for the simple reason that this was such a stupid thing to say that at first I thought the guy was joking. I don't think I was the only one in the courtroom, either.

This was the darnedest thing about the whole proceeding. People avoided saying anything that might make them sounded bigoted against the guy for, say, having brown skin, but the minute the idea is broached that he may be an illegal immigrant not only are people comfortable about openly stating an irreconcilable prejudice, a lot of them don't even think their beliefs can negatively influence their opinion of the defendant.

So here's what I'm wondering. Does anyone else get the impression from our society that "illegal immigrant" has just become code for disliking people who are different from us normals? I mean, in a sense the proceedings didn't surprise me- there were plenty of people back in Arizona who seemed to be under the impression that the Constitution simply doesn't apply to anyone unless they're a citizen. The thing that really jarred me was realizing how intense people's feelings became when we got to a subject completely abstracted from the discussion at hand, simply because they could logically rationalize the belief. I mean, the public defender even asked a couple people, if this was a guy whose first language was German, would you care? They said, "of course, totally the same thing". And yet somehow I have trouble buying it.

Early on he also asked about the Amanda Ross case. And in retrospect it's easy to see why- I think most of us would be pretty alarmed if her Italian jury was openly prejudicial against her just because she needed a translator to understand the proceedings. A pity more jurors weren't familiar with the case- otherwise they might have realized how ridiculously off-topic they were getting.

edited 2nd Feb '10 7:45:06 PM by SomeGuy

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Tzetze DUMB from a converted church in Venice, Italy Since: Jan, 2001
DUMB
#2: Feb 2nd 2010 at 7:50:49 PM

 offtopic

This happens all the time, doesn't it? Society judges some behavior taboo, and then people continue to do it in some other way that's more acceptable.

edited 2nd Feb '10 7:53:33 PM by Tzetze

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Penguin4Senate Since: Aug, 2009
#3: Feb 2nd 2010 at 7:59:18 PM

Does anyone else get the impression from our society that "illegal immigrant" has just become code for disliking people who are different from us normals?

Yes. All the time. The county I lived in before going to college had quite a booming Hispanic population. The number of letters to the editor in the county paper proclaiming the danger of Mexicans stealing the country's resources from squeaky-clean hardworking Real!Americans eventually turned me off it completely. I think the raw irony of people's contempt for immigrants is what amuses and disgusts me the most.

edited 2nd Feb '10 8:00:10 PM by Penguin4Senate

MacPhisto Tell Me A Lie... from Cloud Cuckoo Land Since: Jul, 2009
Tell Me A Lie...
#4: Feb 2nd 2010 at 8:05:27 PM

while racism is indeed a problem in this country (don't kid yourself), it doesn't seem like the case here; just one dumbass attorney trying to make a name for himself

that being said, I don't think that it really matters to racists wether a person of color is in this country legally or not; they're still going to go out of their way to antagonize them

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Madrugada Zzzzzzzzzz Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
#5: Feb 2nd 2010 at 8:11:05 PM

How was the attorney trying to make a name for himself? I'm not following your reasoning.

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SomeGuy Some Guy from totally uncool town Since: Jan, 2001
Some Guy
#6: Feb 2nd 2010 at 8:11:27 PM

Oh? What makes you say that?

I mean, he's a defense attorney. It's kind of his job to try and make sure that people who would be unfairly prejudiced against his client not be on the jury.

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Morven Nemesis from Seattle, WA, USA Since: Jan, 2001
Nemesis
#7: Feb 2nd 2010 at 8:14:08 PM

@Mac Phisto: it's an attorney's job to try and find out whether prospective jurors might be biased against his client. This is happening in private during jury selection; it's not any attempt to make a name for himself.

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blackcat Since: Apr, 2009
#8: Feb 2nd 2010 at 8:24:38 PM

There is a long history in this country of mistrust and hatred of immigrants regardless of legality. "Irish Need Not Apply" and the "Know Nothing" movement of the 1850's are just two symptoms of this phenomena.

vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't there before Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#9: Feb 2nd 2010 at 8:27:58 PM

I really don't get the hate on inmigrants on the USA, Wasn't the country made up of Inmigrants at first place?

Tzetze DUMB from a converted church in Venice, Italy Since: Jan, 2001
DUMB
#10: Feb 2nd 2010 at 8:30:00 PM

Haha, logic, yeah right.

I saw a political cartoon once with a bunch of angry rich Know Nothing types mocking an immigrant, but then their shadows are poor immigrants. Published 19th century I think.

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MajorTom Eye'm the cutest! Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Eye'm the cutest!
#11: Feb 2nd 2010 at 8:53:20 PM

I really don't get the hate on inmigrants on the USA, Wasn't the country made up of Inmigrants at first place?

I for one will welcome any immigrant to this country so long as they follow the laws on immigration.

I have no problem with legal immigrants. Illegal immigrants I do have a problem with and it matters not where they are from.

"Allah may guide their bullets, but Jesus helps those who aim down the sights."
blackcat Since: Apr, 2009
#12: Feb 2nd 2010 at 8:55:42 PM

Never underestimate the capacity that humans have for hating and fearing those who speak a different language, worship another god, or have a skin color or eye shape that is foreign.

And if you can find the time read Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States".

BonSequitur Has emotional range Since: Jan, 2001
Has emotional range
#13: Feb 2nd 2010 at 8:55:42 PM

Just as long as it's in Mexico.

EDIT: Oh, bloody ninja hell.

edited 2nd Feb '10 8:56:02 PM by BonSequitur

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MacPhisto Tell Me A Lie... from Cloud Cuckoo Land Since: Jul, 2009
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#14: Feb 2nd 2010 at 9:47:17 PM

How was the attorney trying to make a name for himself? I'm not following your reasoning.

as the OP said, there was no reason whatsoever to bring the defendants nationality up

the way I read it, it seemed like he was hoping to go to trial, and make a big case out of the crime being motivated by racism, thereby setting himself as a champion of the unrepresented

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vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't there before Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#15: Feb 2nd 2010 at 9:50:47 PM

The point is, Who brought up the Nationality of the man?

Tzetze DUMB from a converted church in Venice, Italy Since: Jan, 2001
DUMB
#16: Feb 2nd 2010 at 9:52:36 PM

See, the accused had to have a court translator present. The public defender had been asking prospective jurors whether they thought this would influence their ability to objectively judge the case. There hadn't been any problems until this one guy brought up how he thought illegal immigrants were bad and was surprised that they even had the rights to things like trials in this country (!).

Yeah I'm not seeing the defense lawyer being at fault there.

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Warsie Representin Da Souf Syde from Chicago, IL, USA Since: Jan, 2010
Representin Da Souf Syde
#17: Feb 2nd 2010 at 10:31:35 PM

Uh. Yes, OP. Illegal Immigration is a codeword for racist bullshit. the KKK [and other groups] has been able to exploit the fear/hatred of Hispanics among White America to improve their recruitment. And there's then the general annoying nativists/pan USA nationalists who may not be racist (see Lou Dobbs; he married a hispanic woman).

And it's not limited to the USA either. BNP does it with Pakistanis and East Asians, somewhat with Polish people, etc.

Mexico City's Middle class easily decides to fuck with the mainly indigenous/natives moving into the city from the countryside blaming them.

Oh, and Chinese city-dwellers blaming the illegal immigrants/"floaters" from the countryside for every crime and being elitist jackasses to them.

And don't forget the Great Migrations of Black America to large cities in 1910-20s and 1940-50s and how the various other ethnic groups complained...when they weren't too busy beating each other up.

Well this is now on 'immigration' not 'racism' now lol.

EDIT:

And if you can find the time read Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States".

Google it; historyisaweapon has an older version of it.

I really don't get the hate on inmigrants on the USA, Wasn't the country made up of Inmigrants at first place?

"They took our jerbs" or forgetting or not caring or just being jackasses.

Double Irony given the original white immigrants killed off/kicked out the natives.

I saw a political cartoon once with a bunch of angry rich Know Nothing types mocking an immigrant, but then their shadows are poor immigrants. Published 19th century I think.

Don't forget the contemporary ones. I remember one ~5 years back that had a white politician bawwing and saying "WE NEED TO GER RIDOF ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS".

The Native American by him responded "I'll pack your bags".

EDIT 2:

Does anyone else get the impression from our society that "illegal immigrant" has just become code for disliking people who are different from us normals?

The "other". But unfortunately, "illegal immigrants" are pretty damn normal, though there are those who do not like their society, THEY are not the normals...

edited 2nd Feb '10 10:51:57 PM by Warsie

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JethroQWalrustitty OG Troper from Finland Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
OG Troper
#18: Feb 3rd 2010 at 12:30:31 AM

Immigration criticism is used as a politiclaly correct cover for racism. There are non-racist opponent of illlegal and legal immigration, even non-xenophobic. Sometimes it's a question of resourcces. But a good share of the time, xenophobia and racism is a factor.

In Some Guy's case, yeah, that juror was most likely racist.

the statement above is false
MacPhisto Tell Me A Lie... from Cloud Cuckoo Land Since: Jul, 2009
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#19: Feb 3rd 2010 at 9:25:28 AM

wow, Warsie just owned this topic

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rmctagg09 The Wanderer from Brooklyn, NY (USA) (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
The Wanderer
#20: Feb 3rd 2010 at 10:34:25 AM

I personally believe that a lot of the ire directed at illegal immigrants is just another part of the long cycle of Americans picking on the newest group that has arrived, calling them "not real Americans", and other types or racist or jingoistic bullshit.

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tennessean Since: Jan, 2001
#21: Feb 3rd 2010 at 5:48:37 PM

As Jethro three posts above this one stated, it's quite possible to have a legitimate reason to fight illegal immigration (As the name implies, it's immigration that breaks the immigration laws). The problem, however, is that racists, bigots, and other prejudiced people have poisoned the issue with their bullshit. This makes legitimate discussions rather difficult to have.

BlackHumor Unreliable Narrator from Zombie City Since: Jan, 2001
#22: Feb 3rd 2010 at 6:18:13 PM

I'd like to point out that "Well, does he speak Spanish or Mexican?" is not necessarily a stupid question.

It's possible that he meant it in the sense of "Does he speak American or British?", and if so it was a fairly good question.

(Incidentally, no wonder none of them heard of the Amanda Ross case; I never heard of it; it's not on Wikipedia; there is a case involving Amanda Ross that comes up on google but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with that case, so I'm forced to conclude that this case is not on the internet.)

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Tzetze DUMB from a converted church in Venice, Italy Since: Jan, 2001
DUMB
#23: Feb 3rd 2010 at 6:23:57 PM

Hm. Did he perhaps mean Amanda Knox? She was all over the news a while ago.

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FurikoMaru Reverse the Curse from The Arrogant Wasteland Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
Reverse the Curse
#24: Feb 3rd 2010 at 6:59:29 PM

What does the type of Spanish spoken have to do with anything?

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vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't there before Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#25: Feb 3rd 2010 at 7:03:54 PM

also, what Black Humor alluded is wrong, it should be "Mexican or Castillian?". But then, I don't think your general populace knows the True Name of Spanish.


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