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Bakuman
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Bakuman:

 351 Neo Crimson, Mon, 21st Jun '10 5:04:34 PM from behind your lines.
Your army sucks.
Indeed, the series is so well written that I end up focusing on the story developments and fantastic art, so the sexism flies under my radar completely.

Still, Raw makes me feel guilty for liking the series.
Sorry, I can't hear you from my FLYING METAL BOX!
Jesus as in Revelations
^ DON'T! One can love a series with a mighty, unashamed, unreserved love and still be able to criticize its flaws. If we didn't love it, we wouldn't even care. Remember: The human heart is infinite! I bet everything on that!
 353 A H R, Mon, 21st Jun '10 5:35:21 PM from Crevice of your Mind
Resistance is Futile
I love every series that have threads I've posted in. I wouldn't love it if I didn't care THAT MUCH. Except El Goonish Shive, but that's an entirely different enchilada.

Seriously though, most manga like Bakuman is a strong love hate relationship. It flip flops from YES THIS IS THE EPITOME OF AWESOME to WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT MY EYESSSSSSSSS
So... am I the only one who reads the sexism in Bakuman as a scathingt potrayal of kawaiisa?
 355 Anarchy, Tue, 22nd Jun '10 6:42:50 AM from Perak, Malaysia
just a medicine seller
Takagi and Mashiro did mention fanservice rather disparagingly once (ironic, really, since one of this artist's previous works is sickeningly ecchi), but nah. The sexism goes too far if it's meant only to be a critique of kawaisa.

Erm, what was the artist previous "sickeningly ecchi" work?
 
 357 Neo Crimson, Tue, 22nd Jun '10 7:56:02 AM from behind your lines.
Your army sucks.
One can love a series with a mighty, unashamed, unreserved love and still be able to criticize its flaws. If we didn't love it, we wouldn't even care.

Still, liking a series despite it having such disparaging opinions is just as bad as ignoring those opinions. It's like saying that "oh you guys are so good that you guys get a free pass at the whole sexism/racsim/whatever thing." By accepting the series despite its flaws you are encouraging those flaws themselves.
Sorry, I can't hear you from my FLYING METAL BOX!
 358 Neo Crimson, Tue, 22nd Jun '10 7:56:02 AM from behind your lines.
Your army sucks.
Argh, double post.

edited 22nd Jun '10 7:56:21 AM by Neo_Crimson

Sorry, I can't hear you from my FLYING METAL BOX!
 359 Anarchy, Tue, 22nd Jun '10 7:58:10 AM from Perak, Malaysia
just a medicine seller
Erm. Just because I adore Michael Jackson's music and think that he's the most amazing dancer that's ever lived doesn't mean that I condone pedophilia or think that he should be allowed to molest young boys.

Same concept.

EDIT: His ecchi work? Blue Dragon. Not the game. The manga.

edited 22nd Jun '10 7:59:10 AM by Anarchy

Jesus as in Revelations
^^ He didn't do any of that! Leave the poor guy alone!

The work you are asking for is Ral to Grad. Doesn't have a page. Doesn't deserve one. Not a good fighting shonen. Not very good fapping material. The battles are quite smart, though, very Jojo like. Oh, and the sexism is completely and utterly over the roof.
 361 Anarchy, Tue, 22nd Jun '10 8:12:01 AM from Perak, Malaysia
just a medicine seller
Haha, I know. It was just an example, don't take it too literally.

Yup, I read the first volume and I thought, wow, he really went downhill after Death Note huh. Have a One Manga link:

http://www.onemanga.com/Blue_Dragon_Ral_Grado/

edited 22nd Jun '10 8:13:25 AM by Anarchy

Jesus as in Revelations
^ You mean he rieally went downhill after LADIES
Or like how I can still think Crime and Punishment is a very good book despite completely disagreeing with its main themes and not liking the fact that it's a blatant Author Tract.


This post was thumped by the Stick of Post Thumping
 365 Neo Crimson, Tue, 22nd Jun '10 12:18:19 PM from behind your lines.
Your army sucks.
I still feel like a gigantic Hypocrite though...
Sorry, I can't hear you from my FLYING METAL BOX!
 366 Anarchy, Tue, 22nd Jun '10 8:19:09 PM from Perak, Malaysia
just a medicine seller
Why? It's not like you like the sexism itself. You like the non-sexist bits of the story.

 367 Kayeka, Wed, 23rd Jun '10 7:01:43 AM from Amsterdam Relationship Status: Brony
World's biggest wannabe
I find it amazing that people can discuss the sexism in this work to such lenghts. Seriously, just how bad is it? It's not like they are saying 'Women suck! MALE POWAH!' every two pages or something. The casual reader probably wouldn't even notice.

Sure, it probably won't get any feminist rewards, but it is neither blatant or intentional, so just let it go.
Jesus as in Revelations
It is precisely because the casual reader wouldn't notice and would find himself happily nodding to Takagi's bullshit in chapter 2, which is what happened to moi, to my great shame, that such a work is perverse and nasty.
 369 Anarchy, Wed, 23rd Jun '10 9:22:23 AM from Perak, Malaysia
just a medicine seller
Why should we? Obviously you don't feel that it's blatant. If that's the case, just don't participate in the discussion. End of story. But if other people feel that it's blatant or worth pointing out, let other people point it out and discuss it. It's not like anyone's forcing you to read this thread. Telling us not to discuss sexism is, seriously, a direct attack on our right to freedom of speech.

But if you feel that you need to pop in every now and again to tell us to shut up because for some reason we're offending you or hurting your feelings by discussing sexism in a manga, feel free to. Because you have that freedom, right?

Just like I have the freedom to react to what you say however I want. Right?

Back on topic: PCP, IMHO, sounds pretty terrible as a title. It makes me think of some sort of chemical. It sounds cool as Perfect Crime Party, like they're some sort of political party, but the shortened version just makes me cringe. Oh well. Perhaps it'll grow on me.

But really, their new series' premise sounds, frankly, quite bland to me. And what little we've seen of it just makes it worse.

"It is precisely because the casual reader wouldn't notice and would find himself happily nodding to Takagi's bullshit in chapter 2, which is what happened to moi, to my great shame, that such a work is perverse and nasty. "

Hear, hear. I shudder when I think of impressionable young children and teenagers reading this and thinking that this is the way the world works and this is how girls should be like.

Works like this should be rated 18+ so that only sensible adults who aren't as susceptible to sexist thinking can read it.

edited 23rd Jun '10 9:25:06 AM by Anarchy

Jesus as in Revelations
PCP: Disambiguiatiom
 371 Clarste, Wed, 23rd Jun '10 9:26:29 AM Relationship Status: Non-Canon
Three Steps
Bakuman runs on pure Take Our Word for It when it comes to the quality of the manga in it. There's nothing new about PCP there. Frankly, most of the series in it sound either terrible or impossible to keep up the quality for over a long running series. I'm pretty sure the writer is intentionally throwing away the ideas he thought of but considered unworkable in real life. Because, well, if the ideas were that good he'd be writing that series instead.

edited 23rd Jun '10 9:27:57 AM by Clarste

 372 Anarchy, Wed, 23rd Jun '10 9:34:53 AM from Perak, Malaysia
just a medicine seller
I know... I just wish they wouldn't actually show the pages of the manga in question... then we could imagine it was actually as good as it's supposed to be.

 373 Clarste, Wed, 23rd Jun '10 9:39:03 AM Relationship Status: Non-Canon
Three Steps
We only see a few "establishing shot" pages, don't we? Or are you talking about the cell phone straps and the punny names and stuff?

 374 Anarchy, Wed, 23rd Jun '10 9:46:22 AM from Perak, Malaysia
just a medicine seller
Ah, those too. I was underwhelmed, to be honest, with the cell-phone straps and all. I've seen character designs on deviantART that are better than that. Heh. Also, the names were just too implausible for me to take seriously. I mean, what are the chances of two people's names completely fitting together like that?

But then again, it's not like we can go completely without illustrations of their concepts.

 375 Kayeka, Wed, 23rd Jun '10 9:55:37 AM from Amsterdam Relationship Status: Brony
World's biggest wannabe
^^^^^^That felt a tad more defensice then needed, but whatever you say.

But now that we have returned to discussing the actual comic: Yeah, PCP sounds like a pretty lame title. Maybe it's just lame to western ears, but it wouldn't hurt so much if the characters didn't pretend like the title is the best thing since sliced bread.

Oh, well. PCP isn't the attraction here. I call it Informed Ability, and be done with it.
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