Neon Genesis Evangelion

Yeah, Raised by Wolves (with a pothole changing it to "Raised by Gendou") isn't there on her profile for decoration purposes.

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On a different note — and since the Rebuild thread seems on an indefinite dormancy until Rebuild's current hiatus ends — I have a question about Mari's characterization: In the absence of proper Character Development in Rebuild, how accurate would you say if one decided to fill in the blanks in Mari's comparatively "flat" personality (well, more like 2.5-dimensional^note she has some measure of depth, especially by 3.0, but nowhere near enough to consider her a truly 3-dimensional character) by drawing upon Saeko Busujima, since she shares several of Mari's core traits (an Antiheroic Blood Knight who only avoids being truly Ax-Crazy by virtue of directing their bloodlust against generally "acceptable" targets ^note Mari towards the Angels and Nerv's Evangelions, Saeko towards the undead hordes threatening both her life and that of her group., and has a considerable fanservice quota)?

edited 10th Jan '17 7:37:25 AM by MarqFJA

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I think Mari is supposed to come across as both flat and out of place in the cast. She seems to be a commentary on the sort of original characters created by many fanfics, and would lose the point if she became even 2-dimensional. She's not so much a gimmicky character as a gimmick.

Adding to what the Mallard said: there are valid storytelling reasons for what happened to Rei Q (and her humanisation before then). Rei was the reason Shinji finally acted of his own accord at the end of 2.22, and that the girl was lost to him was the culmination of that decision entirely backfiring on him. I think also that Anno is motivated not so much by disgust of audience reactions (as he likely was in End of) as by curiousity to see how they react to a Rei closer to the original concept.

It's harsh on the audience, but there's a point to it, which is not something I can definitely say about some events towards the end of the original series.

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.

''Mari is supposed to be one-dimensional"? I find that hard to believe.

As if he wasn't controversial enough, though I love the how much the 2chan comments turn his own words against him. This was probably before he recovered from his second bout of Depression though.

But yeah, Gen Urobuchi and Tappei Nagatsuki have criticized escapism far better then he has, without insulting people about it.

edited 27th Jan '17 12:36:05 PM by Demongodofchaos2

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Yeah, at this point, he's pretty much just throwing up his hands in regards to the whole "escapist otaku" thing.

Also, I just came across a pretty interesting, if rather disheartening, theory regarding the interview and what it meant regarding 3.0's overall end product:

"The show was meant to discourage otaku from escaping reality but then it created a cult who used the catharsis experienced when watching Eva to continue to escape reality.

I believe this is why the plot of 3.0 is Shinji trying to restart Instrumentality (ie return to Eo E) even though everyone else can see it's a bad idea. "The curse of Eva is that you never grow up," as Asuka says. I also think this is the reason that Anno uses a time-skip and has the Shinji we know (and the viewer) be forced into a world that moved on years ago whilst he's still repeating the same ideas and mistakes "Let me pilot Unit 01!", because he feels this reflects people who suffer from "the curse of Eva."

This is also why the ending of 3.0 (after trying to restart Instrumentality does nothing) is Asuka pulling Shinji out of an Eva entry plug and dragging him into a harsh, red landscape. Asuka (and the colour red) always represented reality in Eva, which is why the end of Eo E was Shinji managing to finally make a connection with Asuka, even though it was a bleak and flawed one (what he hoped Eva would do for escapist Otaku; though returning to the real world will be difficult the film insisted that it was still worth trying). This is why 3.0's ending is so similar; Anno is revisiting that moment. The people who 3.0 is about never managed to make that connection to reality (Asuka) and so Asuka has to drag Shinji to it himself, setting up 3.0+1.0.

The Shinji at the end of Eo E said goodbye to Unit 01 (his mother) and even though it was flawed and disgusting tried to reach out to Asuka. The Shinji at the end of 2.0 drags Rei (symbol of fantasy and dependence on the Mother) into Unit 01 with him where he stays for over a decade. This is the essential difference between the effect Anno wanted Eva to have on people versus what he feels they did.

This is also why all the Eva stuff from the animator expo last year that was Eva-related had a theme of the Eva cycle repeating itself to absurdity. The CGI Eva film showed an Eva Unit going beserk in a city ravaged by fighting so many times that there's nothing even left for the Eva to protect, whilst Until You Come To Me follows Shinji wandering alone among petrified Evas and abandoned entry plugs and ends with a repeat of the opening scene of NGE (Shinji standing, seeing Rei, starting the adventure), but this time Shinji is stood entirely alone amongst rubble and goes after her with resignation.

TL;DR: Eva told Otaku to go outside, but instead Otaku stayed inside watching Eva."

Again, talk about having contempt for your audience simply because they don't have the same interpretation of your work that you have.

edited 27th Jan '17 3:08:02 PM by LDragon2

That's certainly a hell of a theory.

I'm never much of a fan of theories that put words in the mouths of a creator, but the Red = reality, Blue = escapism dichotomy represented through Asuka and Rei is certainly a new take in my book. If you apply that logic to the Rebuild DVD/BD releases, 1.11 has a red case and 3.33 has a blue case - does that imply that the first series is the reality of what Evangelion is, and that 3.33 is the concept flung so far in another direction that it can be considered a form of escapism from the trauma of the original series?

Probably not, I dug that theory right out of my ass. Just thought it was interesting.

Honestly, I can't blame Anno for giving up on hardcore otaku. Imagine being the guy who wrote Lolita (I know the guy has a name, but I'm not googling Lolita) intending it to be a subversive work of art where you follow a narcissistic abuser through his point of view, as he rationalizes his actions to you while doing very wrong things - the idea being to realize that you're not reading about a good guy, that the protagonist is not good, to actually think about what you can agree with or experience when the right person frames it in a sympathetic light towards themselves - and gaining a cult fanbase of sexual deviants, possible abusers and all sorts of undesirables who like the book because it speaks to them and they find it "sexy". I imagine Anno isn't too happy about feeding that unhealthy fanbase who want to be with Rei, or pilot a robot because it's cool, or experience realistic, horrible violence for the sake of viscera.

Then again, he's probably profited significantly from Evangelion figurines and the like? Or would the bulk of that revenue go to Gainax? I dunno.

Come sail your ships around me, and burn your bridges down.

You know Anno has a really weird relationship with his fans and he should try to avoid Evangelion altogether but it is that Anno is well known for and he seems to actually care about Otaku that he criticizes.

"Analay, an original fan character from a 2006 non canon comic. Do not steal!"

Vladimir Nabokov. Remember the name, he's written better stuff than Lolita.

Asuka = harsh reality sits wrong with me because she's not that realistic, is also idolised by otaku, and I'm not sure is she could ever get along with Shinji, even if they both grow up. But it would work better than with Rei, all right. It's also perverse to read the tangy world or End of as representing reality, it seems more a thematic counter-point: it's the world of complete isolation that Shinji wished for before.

That theory definitely has something going for it, but as often with these readings it's too reductionist.

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.

Asuka is harsh reality because she CAN reject Shinji and is more or less the same as him though she dealt with her past in the exact opposite fashion.

You gotta start somewhere.

Nabokov is one of the best writers of all time.

Having spent the last two days watching a blind reaction video series on Youtube, I came to a realization.

I'm still loving the shit out of Evangelion, after all these years.

Well, yeah, you would have to considering that you're still writing and/or discussing fanfics for said franchise here. I cannot fathom why anyone would do that if they don't like it at all, aside from wanting to write hatefics.

Speaking of which, hatefics are a stupid concept IMO; if you want to criticize a work that you hate in its entirety, why do it through writing a "fan"fic in which all you do is vent your anger and frustrations on everything concerning said work?

edited 3rd Feb '17 11:18:01 AM by MarqFJA

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I'll admit that are some stories that I have contempt for but at same time I had yet to write a hatefic. I do admit that they are things that I am 'critical' of and that I 'hate' but I had written a hatefic about anything yet. Hatefics could be good for frustration but only if you post it in private and not online.

"Analay, an original fan character from a 2006 non canon comic. Do not steal!"

Seconded with Die for Our Ship.

Same with Character Bashing. A bit more understandabe in this series due to its polarizing characters.

Also, making God-Mode Sue Shinji or Asuka and saying its how "they should be" (looking at you, gunman...).

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Yep. Add in Ron the Death and Draco in leather pants.

"Analay, an original fan character from a 2006 non canon comic. Do not steal!"

Oh yes, this reviled phenomenon. It's especially nonsensical in cases where one or both/all of the "competing" love interests in question is/are quite accepting of a Marry Them All resolution. Examples:

• In pre-Soul Society Arc Bleach, Rukia is once asked by Orihime's classmates whether she had romantic feelings for Ichigo, and the negative response had Orihime disappointed because it would've been two girls against one boy and thus the girls' team will win (No, seriously, that's what she says; Rukia and the other girls are just as confused by Orihime's logic as you probably are).
• High School DXD: The rest of the harem acknowledges Rias's claim to being Issei Hyoudou's "wife" and don't compete with her over that. Instead they compete between each other for the position of "first mistress" (yes, "first"; that means they're OK with there being other mistresses besides them). And yes, Rias is okay with Issei having a harem (after their Official Couple status becomes official in-universe, that is).

And do not get me started on Die for Our Ship instances that involve works that actually concluded a Marry Them All resolution for the harem plot (e.g. Tenchi Muyo!), or alternatively come "pre-packaged" with a polygamous/polyamorous family (e.g. The Turbines in Mobile Suit Gundam Iron Blooded Orphans); yes, we get it, polygamy as anathema to mainstream Western culture, but that doesn't give fans the right to retcon away canonical polygamy.

Just for the record, it's arguable whether it's really Character Bashing in certain cases. Gendou makes it easy for fans to hate his guts for a variety of reasons, even after considering the whole "I was scared of hurting Shinji" reveal in EOE ^note I've argued last year that one could easily interpret that scene as a self-delusion on his part; that is, he deluded himself into thinking that it's indeed the reason he abandoned Shinji rather than confront the fact he didn't really love his and Yui's son. Hell, you can also argue that in the absence of any evidence that supports his claim that he'd only hurt Shinji if he didn't abandon him (there's no indication that he actually hurt Shinji emotionally before the abandonment... and that's assuming that he even bothered spending time with him after Yui's death), it's quite plausible for use to assume that the excuse in question is utter bullshit and therefore rather than make him sympathetic it actually makes him even more reprehensible..

... OK, I'll bite: Which story(s) are you talking about here? Because I don't remember Gunman writing any "Shinji or Asuka as a God-Mode Sue" fic to date.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

His crossover fics generally turn shinji into one. All of his D Xd Evangelion crossovers make Shinji into someone who steals Issei's harem and has a dragon power greater then the two heavenly dragons.

Naruto I can understand. But Shinji?

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Probably out of pity. I mean, Shinji gets it really bad in canon, and even EOE's ending can be intepreted as a Bittersweet Ending, if not an outright Downer Ending ^note For all we know, Yui's optimism about the prospects of humanity choosing to choose individuality over Instrumentality was horribly misplaced and Shinji and Asuka are the only ones who made the right choice, thus dooming them to live in a post-apocalyptic world with little knowledge or skills relevant for surviving in it. There are indeed fanfics that take this path as a starting point for a Peggy Sue plot, i.e. Asuka ended up dying and Shinji wants to fix things, or both of them die and either they end up pulling Mental Time Travel to the past and get a second chance or an incorporeal Rei turns back time and tries to avert that outcome, or even Shinji and Asuka realizing they have no hope of surviving this world nor a desire to try to do so and find a way to pull off Mental Time Travel (typically with a godlike Rei/Kaworu's help)..

Hell, I'll be honest: I tend to come up with similar ideas myself, though with the caveats that 1) no Love Interest-stealing happens, rather Shinji completely replaces the character whom he would have stolen the Love Interest from (basically, the original guy never existed in the first place in this version of the story); and 2) great care would be taken to avoid a Boring Invincible Hero result (Showy Invincible Hero is much better, if I really need Shinji to be an Invincible Hero to begin with).

edited 3rd Feb '17 6:06:08 PM by MarqFJA

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I wonder if Shinji would feel bad for Natsuki Subaru?

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I mean, he'd probably feel bad for Guts.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!

He'd probably relate to Subaru more due to Subaru being closer in age.

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I mean, Guts has also had a worse life than both of them; hard to beat being born from the corpse of your hung mother, being abused throughout your childhood, and everything that happened after Griffith became Pento...

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!

I hadn't really written any hatefics myself but I had seen some harsh criticism and outright disgust for the characters of this series. It isn't limited to Evangeiion as every other show has there fair share of hatefics but Evangelion is the most infamous because the characters and their stories rubbed off on some fans the wrong way. I had seen some posts where some writers, bloggers, hobbyist, etc assassinate the characters because they did something that they didn't like or other reasons such as shipping. I'll admit that they are some characters that seemed to irritate and I am not saying that his right but it seems that most hatefics or "criticisms" seem to stem from how the other characters rub off on viewers the "wrong" way.

"Analay, an original fan character from a 2006 non canon comic. Do not steal!"