A Song Of Ice And Fire

Full Metal Alchemist?

The time period is about right, but I was thinking specifically of the revolutions in the period from the late 19th to the early 20th century. Over the course of a few decades, we went from classical Newtonian physics with an atomist theory of matter (atoms are the fundamental unit of all matter, they are discrete units not composed of smaller parts which cannot be divided or transformed from one type into another) to general relativity and quantum theory. There were definitely practical applications, but among scientists, the fact that our fundamental understanding of the universe was being completely revolutionized was a much bigger deal. We thought we had a pretty good handle on things, and found out, pretty suddenly in historical terms, that the universe was much more complex, and worked in much less intuitive ways, than we had ever anticipated.

Combine that sense of revolutionary discovery with the overriding sense of progress, in direct opposition to so much fantasy which bears themes of regression from The Time of Myths, and I think you'd have something extremely thematically original for fantasy.

edited 30th Apr '10 11:29:33 AM by Desertopa

You could certainly have something similar happening with the understanding of the rules of reality in a fantastic, magical place — it would be a perfect time to develop the science of magic, for instance.

That was exactly what I had in mind.

So much fantasy takes place after the fall of some distant Age of Legends, where society was much more advanced and able to accomplish things now unheard of, and what put an end to this is frequently not addressed. I think you could do a lot with a story where they're entering an age where their knowledge far surpasses that of any historical civilization, and they're learning that they're capable of things they never thought were possible before.

The Bas-Lag books have a bit of that, although they're also horrifyingly depressing and depressingly ideological.

In my work-in-progress, they're approaching being able to understand things again, about 1100 years after the end of the world. A good part of the background plot is the contention between "the way of the ancients" and new discoveries. Between looking back and looking forward.

The twist is that the world changed; the very rules of reality changed. Not everything from the ancient time still works.

Dammit Morven, you and I are writing the same book.

Except, not really, because no one is at the same level from prior the Cataclysm yet. Well, the Necrocracy in the setting is kind of close, since it's really the only nation that has people that were "alive" before the cataclysm, but it's still lagging pretty far behind.

@Desertopa: That's also an interesting idea, and the setting of my other work-in-progress is sort of similar to that idea.

edited 1st May '10 11:41:57 AM by LuckyRevenant

Thread Hopper TL;DR

HOLY SHIT I JUST BOUGHT GAME OF THRONES AND DAAAAAMN THIS BOOK IS AWESOME!!!!

We change POV with each character! And ALL of them are HAMS! THE NARRATOR IS AS MUCH OF A HAM AS THE ONE FROM SHIN MAZINGER Z! It is a PERFECT, ABSOLUTE World of Ham!

I... I'm so happy...

Err, I don't think you know what a ham is.

Martin writes very "action-movie style" dialogue, but he's not really hammy. (Well, there are a ton of hammy characters, Strong Belwas, Greatjon, Robert, etc. It's just not a World of Ham)

It's already listed on the World of Ham page. Remove it if you don't agree.

Frankly, I don't really think it qualifies, since none of the POV characters are that hammy.

Maybe it's just the old-fashined way of speaking and the uninhibited use of swearwords and other shitstuff when people are taking the piss, leading to a Sophisticated As Fuck overall feeling.

Oh, and I have just finished Game of Thrones.

HOLY SHIT THIS IS A HORRIBLE STORY!! IT'S A Crapsack World that's even WORSE than BERSERK! At least in Berserk some of the good stuff that happens sticks some of the time. Here, every single time somtheing good happens to someone, something horrible happens right afterwards. Yank the Dog's Chain and Red Herring abound. I mean, seriously, I expected Dany's crew to take advantage of the Civil War to sweep the country, kind of like the conquest of Al Andalus by Tarik Ibnu Zyad, except far, far more bloody and brutal. No, more like the sack of Bagdad by the Mongols.

And then the kid is killed before birth. I mean, I expected him to go demonic and evil and whatever, but to be born a months-dead dragonling... talk about Shoot the Shaggy Dog...

So, I have ONE QUESTION to those who have read farther up. Please. Does Dany remain sterile forever? Is she truly the last dragon?

Well... That depends. There are a whole lot of WMG's. She's not become pregnant yet, though. (then again, she haven't had sex with a man since hubby died either, so...)

Also, if you think this is bad, you're going to go apeshit in the next few books :p

Dany's husband dies and becomes bombie the zombie, sister has gone crazy, Joff is a moron, Ned gets a Darwin Award, Tyrion gets the crap beaten out of him, Tywin is in a world of shit because of his daughter's incompetence, and his main son has been taken hostagekilled as far as he's concerned, Robb's insane bannermen name him King and put him in a World Of Shit, and he seems to be headed straight for a Darwin Award himself, Cat sees one of her kids turn into a crip, one gets taken hostage, one goes insane, one is lost. Richard dies without knowing he had no trueborn sons, we have a Zombie Apocalypse hanging on our heads, Theon wants to be king instead of the king too, his uncle has gone monkey, his father favours his older sister over him, Renly has gone and crowned himself on his own, and who knows what Stannis is up to. And Sansa has gotten her father killed despite her best efforts and finds out the prince she admired so is a little shit.

And you're telling me It Gets Worse? What's this, School Days at the level of a continent? Or should we compare it to Evangelion? I mean, as far as POV characters are concerned, even Berserk, Berserk, the mother of Crapsack Worlds, is a nicer place.

You forgot Arya. But yeah, it gets worse. Somehow, some way, it gets worse. Way worse.

It's always amusing to see people's reaction to the later books.

Raw Power: BE happy that thou hast not yet met the 11-year old serial killer.

^ WTF? Rickon's been going kinda crazy as of late but...

Not Rickon. Arya herself.

It does indeed get worse, but I'd still place Berserk above it in the gratuitous nihilism stakes.

It's worth noting that things start getting better towards the end of the third book (though that's only after something very bad happens in the middle of the third book).

@67:WHO?????????? WTF? I- I mean just... just why? This Is Wrongon So Many Levels! Of all the possible routes that person could have followed... that's fucking evil! Even the guy who writes Empowered isn't that sadistic with his characters!

@Nornagest: I know you shouldn't bear the burden of proof, but would you be so kind as to elaborate?

Well, when 'getting slightly better' means the war ending with bands of marauders scavenging and ruining the land, creating a famine just in time for winter to set in, I don't high hopes for the rest of poor Westeros. And there's Euron Greyjoy fermenting war, the Prince of Dorne's plotting and both of them going after Dany. Not to mention all that's happening at the Eyrie

In fact, maybe we should spare you the spoilers.

^^ Not so much serial killer as "I'm going to hunt down everyone who ever wronged me and make them die painfully" (and to be fair most of them do deserve it). Which, I suppose, does fit the definition of serial killer, though it doesn't have the same connotations. She's a Creepy Child Dark Action Girl either way.

edited 10th Aug '10 9:19:49 AM by Taelor

I know you shouldn't bear the burden of proof, but would you be so kind as to elaborate?

A Song Of Ice And Fire is based around a rather nasty civil war, and that's about as bad as it gets so far; the parts of the story set at the Wall and across the Narrow Sea have their low points, but in trope terms they seem to be plotted more around Earn Your Happy Ending than Shoot the Shaggy Dog. (I'd argue that not even the main storyline qualifies for the latter, but you may be inclined to disagree after reading Game of Thrones — Ned's treatment is pretty cruel.)

Berserk — well, it's got everything A Song Of Ice And Fire has, and then a hefty dose of grotesquely detailed supernatural evil on top of that. ASoIaF has nothing comparable to most of the Apostles, or to the Kushan forces later in the manga... and let's not even talk about the trolls.

I'm a great fan of both series, though.

edited 11th Aug '10 4:01:15 PM by Nornagest

Why do we enjoy these woobie worlds? It's strangely addictive...

In one book she thinks nothing of killing a woman who pays her too little for a horse, only abstaining because there would be no way to conceal the killing.

edited 11th Aug '10 3:33:35 PM by terrkerr