Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

A few thoughts after having been absent for a while.

For one thing, it's nice to have another vote on Vorster. That brings us up to four plus me. Will do a tentative write-up for him soon.

@Largo

I hate to say it, but Talia's always been that misogynistic a character. Her every action has always been based on her relationships with Bruce and R'as. The only times she isn't getting used by one of them, she was getting used by her sister, by Alexander Luthor Jr, or by Lex. She's almost never an independent actor. Kind of pathetic, isn't it?

@Anew Man

As several people have mentioned, The Joker sets the heinous standard for Batman. So when a Batman example comes up, he's going to get mentioned. Just as Brainiac would get mentioned if a Superman example came up.

RE: Commodus

I do agree with Lightysnake that we shouldn't be applying a separate standard to him. As we discussed way back when we were talking about Shan-Yu, we have to analyse characters based on how the work portrays the time period. And in this fictional Roman Empire, Commodus may well be the worst person ever.

That said, I still can't vote for him. There's a couple of reasons for that. The first is that killing your father and bumping off the family of the opposition? That's what The Evil Prince does. It's what I expect from the archetype. Most of the other characters of that type that are on this list (Gihren Zabi and Joffrey Baratheon both spring to mind) have a lot more to their crimes. Now, trying to rape his sister does push him over the edge, but I'm not sure that he's done more than cross the Moral Event Horizon.

More than that though, is the fact that I can feel a shred of sympathy for Commodus, a shred that I cannot feel, by the way, for Joffrey (seeing as that comparison keeps getting used). As I think I mentioned previously, my reaction to Commodus was less "You Monster!" and more "Jesus, get a therapist." His absolute need for the approval of others struck me as more sad than anything else. Now, I'm not saying the world isn't a better place without him. But my ability to pity him does mean that I struggle with the idea of listing him as a CM.

Now, maybe Crowley's right. Maybe this is a case where even though it doesn't feel right, we've got to accept that he meets the criteria and list him. But I can't really bring myself to do that yet.

Here's the problem, Maximus isn't 'the opposition.' He has no desire on the throne and he's only a problem because he refused to buddy up to Commodus. Futhermore, killing his family is wholly unnecessary and Maximus knows it. His only request was for Quintus, his second, to look after his family. Commodus didn't need to have them tortured and crucified'' either. Literally all he'd have to do to nullify this threat? "He died honorably in battle, terribly sorry, here's a stipend."

Also, ambar: what Gihren does and what Joffrey do are not relevant here to this discussion. Commodus should be judged by the standards of his own work.

The issue with him 'not doing as much'...remember Ashnard? The common people were fine under him as well. As I pointed out in a previous post, Commodus's desire for the affection of the people is pretty narcissistic. He thinks he's an amazing guy and thinks everyone needs to acknowledge that.

Consider how he acts to Lucretia. He thinks he's being nice by letting her and her son live under threat of incestuous rape and death should she so much as look at him in a way that pisses him off. When she doesn't respond, he starts screaming at her to acknowledge how merciful he is.

It may not 'feel' right, but he hits every point here. And the fact that he acts like a flat out domestic abuser when he doesn't get his way?

edited 1st Aug '13 11:10:26 PM by Lightysnake

I'm not saying the likes of Gihren or Joffrey disqualify him. I'm saying that both are evil princes who went a whole lot further than the bare minimum for The Evil Prince, and that that is why we listed them. I'm not sure that Commodus goes further enough. Killing your dad and the hero's family? That's not far from typical villain behaviour. And of course the Gladiator Games would appear to have already been in place.

And of course his desire for approval is narcissistic. I'm no shrink, but I'd say Commodus is a textbook narcissist. That doesn't mean that he can't legitimately care about particular people. I just rewatched the scene where he killed his father, and he's blubbering throughout the entire thing. It's either a damned convincing act, or he is legitimately upset, both by his father's perceived lack of affection for him and by the fact that he's now going to have to kill him to take the throne. Maybe you viewed that scene in a different light from me, but I can't see him as a CM. He's a nasty little psycho, but I don't know if he's bad enough for this trope.

I know weblinks aren't examples, but here's the scene for anyone who cares to see it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPTyxZwuDGw (just in case people do want to make sure I'm describing it correctly).

Keep in mind he's also ice cold after that and the subject of his father only royally makes him angry after. I mean, he seems more upset about not being emperor than anything and he even seems angry when he's murdering Marcus

And again, the whole 'rape your sister by using her son's life' is really a qualifier on its own. That is far above and beyond

edited 1st Aug '13 11:31:27 PM by Lightysnake

@14068 So, does anyone agree with me regarding Shido?

Here's the fic that features him, in case anyone missed the relevant entry:

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/9159225/1/Broken-Dreams

No problems adding there

I have changed my mind about Commodus. Add him.

This was on Superman YMMV:

Never heard of him in this discussion.

Me neither. I mean, I guess I vote , but still...

to Commodus, to Jeff.

Sorry Ambar, but I gotta vote on Commodus. I've seen Gladiator, and I can say with confidence that not once did I ever feel pity for him, only horror and disgust.

@14993 So... Isn't someone in charge of the pages going to add him? I already described his actions in detail in the post I specified. I know it says in the FAQ that this is a fast-paced thread, and entries do get missed, and that's why we're supposed to bring up anyone we've already mentioned but didn't get enough feedback on. Isn't it?

How many votes do you have?

Sorry, I was comparing Commodus to other kind of evil dictator type characters we've seen, and I didn't realize that wasn't allowed. Guess things have changed a little bit in the few months I've been gone,

Still voting no, though. In a universe where brutality is shown to be the norm, trying to rape your sister and killing two people is just really not heinous enough, even though it's morally repugnant.

This is what I meant by Commodus' crimes being overlooked. I know Lightysnake laid particular emphasis on his incestuous rape and the ordered death of Maximus' family (which would qualify him by itself), but this is forgetting a huge part of his actions. He didn't kill or ordered the deaths of two people directly, he killed five, failed at one, and many more were planned.

To sum up:

• He kills his father Marcus Aurelius in a fit of anger to take the throne because he learned he wouldn't be emperor.
• He orders Maximus killed, Maximus' wife gangraped and crucified, and his toddler son crucified (a punishment reserved for common criminals).
• He destroys his father's legacy and the very ideal of Rome for a republican state free of corruption by ascending as despot. He keeps the people in line with food and games, and plans to hold all of Rome in thrall by his inbred progeny for a thousand years to come.
• He cruelly taunts Maximus with the death of his wife and son, boasting how many times his wife was raped and how his son squeeled while his men killed him.
• He hangs Maximus' best friend in the army and sympathetic republican ally.
• He orders the death of Maximus' mentor.
• He threatens to kill his nephew if his sister displeases him.
• He blackmails his sister with the life of her only son into becoming his sexual puppet, and plans to rape and impregnate her.
• He rounds up every republican conspirator in the Senate, Maximus friends, and plans to execute them all publically.
• He wounds Maximus mortally before fighting him in the arena.

Furthermore, the brutality in the rest of the film really doesn't compare to Commodus' actions. We are shown a brief war scene, and the fighting in the arena (allohistorically, all portrayed as being death matches). Even in the context of how the film portrays the Roman Empire, arranging to rape and impregnate your sister, needlessly killing a mother and her son because you have a grudge against her husband, killing your father, and threatening to kill your kid nephew would be perceived as exceptionally evil, more so than the casualties resulting from institutionalized gladiatiorial games and warfare, which were commonly accepted. This is probably demonstrated best when even his own bodyguards eventually draw the line at Commodus' heinous and cowardly actions.

edited 2nd Aug '13 9:30:10 AM by Morgenthaler

So far, only Occasional Existor and lightysnake. Not sure how I'm supposed to get people to vote, other than asking them personally to read the fic in question.

Everyone else reading this, let me just say that Shido belongs in the trope, bar none. He is a legitimate sociopath who has done nothing positive whatsoever all story long. He beats Kagami regularly until she comes to her senses and dumps him, he beats up an ailing Konata, he taunts Kagami with three of Konata's dismembered teeth, he manipulates little kids among others willing to believe him, it's implied that he has no real loved ones, even among his own family, and he even burned down the law firm that Kagami had established when things started going downhill for him, before setting off to kill her entire family. Those who do respect him don't actually know him for who he really is.

Nobody has to apologise to me for voting for Commodus. Or any other example for that matter. It's not like it's going to break my heart to lose a vote.

@Largo

We generally try to avoid doing that, just as we tend to avoid making comparisons to Real Life. It's hard, I know. I feel the urge to do it a lot myself.

@ACW

Neutron was never discussed here. In any case, I would have to say no, not because he isn't a vicious, sick SOB, but because the competition is worse. Neutron is a living mass of nuclear energy who can throw down with Superman. Yet his crimes have never really gone beyond taking out a few city blocks. In most of the appearances I've seen him in, he's a bit part character playing the muscle to somebody else (and by muscle I mean guy who shows up for two panels and then gets clobbered).

Even when he does show up for more time though, I can't think of an occasion when he's done anything close to what the likes of Mongul I, Brainiac, or Luthor have gotten up to. Or, if you feel that's an unfair comparison, try this one on for size—he doesn't come close to the level of heinousness perpetrated by fellow Nuclear Nasty and Supergirl villain Reactron. During the events of New Krypton Reactron, who has almost the exact same powerset as Neutron, killed dozens of Kandorians (including Zor-El), tried to rape Supergirl on two separate occasions, attempted to murder a girl for breaking up with him, and ended his spree by killing almost 100 000 Kryptonians. With that in mind, I don't think I could vote for Neutron's inclusion.

@Morgenthaler

That's a better list of crimes. Though I'll note that some of those (wounding Maximus before facing him) are standard villainy, and others (holding Rome in thrall to his inbred progeny) are not things we would generally put on the list of crimes (passing the throne down to your children is sort of what emperors, good or bad, do). In any case, I'm still not saying yes, but I'll feel better about his inclusion if he does go up.

edited 2nd Aug '13 9:31:32 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

I'm not completely certain that meets the "baseline heinousness" standard.

The actions of Eddy's brother, you mean? Brutal physical assault with a touch of psychological torment isn't baseline heinousness? Not to mention the way it was played out was incredibly unnerving and repulsive, starting with the line "Does mom and dad know you've come here to see me? Does anyone know?"

edited 2nd Aug '13 9:38:46 AM by ANewMan

Quick thoughts on Commodus:

Still thinking of yes.

Others addressed this, but the historical argument (i.e. citing other evil emperors) doesn't work that well because the movie presents an idealized impression of the Roman Empire. While I still have some issues with including Shan Yuh (spelling) from Mulan, it is kind of a similar thing in that for the purposes of the work, the "good guys" are assumed to not act in the same way as the villain, even though in reality, they did.

Also, in terms of comparisons with the evil of Caligula, Commodus has more in common with Caligula (or at least the popular image of him) than he does with the historic Commodus.

RE the comparison with Joffrey, a couple of things:

First, the thing about him loving his father/wanted to follow in his image is kind of an Informed Ability- a character comments on it, but it is never shown on page and its only really there so as to identify Joffrey as the culprit behind an attempted murder

Also, Joffrey is characterized as really stupid (and Stupid Evil), which Commodus isn't. This probably explains why Commodus unlike Joffrey, doesn't act in a way toward the populace in a way that dares them to kill him.

Just checked with both The Other Wiki and DC Wiki alike. If Neutron's got any crimes that come close to what Reactron did in the pages of New Krypton, no one is talking about them.

I think that the problem most people are having with that entry is that the show frequently played similar actions for laughs, so while his actions might seem more heinous, they aren't necessarily so.

edited 2nd Aug '13 9:44:25 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

What happens in the one scene Eddy's brother appears in is exactly what causes the other kids in town to redeem themselves and make friends with the very protagonists that they had bullied up until then. Even as fellow bullies themselves, they saw his actions as downright horrific. I'm not a fan of the show, but I watched that one scene for myself out of curiosity. Furthermore, from what I gather, it's implied that he does even worse stuff, such as preying on kids he's never even met and abusing animals, and there is evidence to support such things.

edited 2nd Aug '13 10:16:24 AM by SeaRover

Implied actions do not equal CM. Also, animal cruelty has never been a qualifier here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGhcDZbBbwc

Actually, Hodor, interestingly...Joffrey seems to crave approval, which isn't the same as loving him. It feeds into him being a spoiled, egotistical little monster. You'll remember when Tyrion wishes him condolences for Robert, Joffrey doesn;t even know who he's talking about.