Total posts: [27,619] 1 ... 53 54 55 56 57 59 60 61 62 63 ... 1105
I support cutting, it shows that Even Evil Has Standards is in effect, he dies helping the heroes, and he does have redeeming qualities.
Seriously, Manga and Brotherhood Anime Kimblee is a CM? I've seen tons of stuff saying he wasn't. He's a killer, and a proud one. His good points are slim, but his code of morals makes him not qualify. His morals, if you can call them that, are all about staying the course and doing what you think is right. He'll still kill anyone he's ordered to, or is inclined to, but he still puts a lot of stock in what he believes in (And he is a Nietcheze wannabe, so that involves a lot of killing), but he isn't a hypocrite. And that allows him to pull an Even Evil Has Standards (Of some bizzarre sort) on Pride, and we all see Pride isn't a CM. I'm suprised that Kimblee's listed as a CM, he's bad, but I don't see him fitting the Heinous bar.
edited 4th Jul '12 10:08:53 PM by DrPsyche
I think a lot of people get caught up in the Loves the Sound of Screaming part and forget about the rest. Not to mention that a lot of people seem to have trouble separating his portrayal in the first anime (where he absolutely qualifies for CM status) from his portrayal in the manga/Brotherhood where he does not. (He's also not really a Nietzsche Wannabe; more some really twisted take on Social Darwinist & Rousseau Was Right, though that's neither here nor there). The fact that the manga, unlike the first anime (where half the villains qualified) doesn't really have any candidates beyond Shou Tucker, Dr. Goldtooth, and maybe Father (and I'm iffy on that one too) makes him look worse too. For those who don't know the series, by the way, when we say he choses to die rather than help Pride, that's literal. Kimblee was only going to continue to exist as long as Pride did. He chooses oblivion over helping out a hypocrite. EDIT: Have now cut him.
edited 4th Jul '12 10:39:35 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
No problem. Something I'm wondering about—does Father (Big Bad of Fullmetal Alchemist) really count? I mean, he certainly doesn't seem to have any good points, yet his sparing Hohenheim and giving him half of the souls of Xerxes in the backstory and his (kept) promise to recreate Gluttony with all his memories intact when the latter is slain the first time (keep in mind that Gluttony is hardly the most efficent of servants) would seem to indicate that he's capable of at least some affection. Perhaps more importantly his death scene, much like manga!Envy's and Pride's is flatout pitiable, and Hohenheim openly invokes Alas, Poor Villain in Brotherhood, noting that Father's basically been screwed by his own psychology—as long as there are any rules holding him down he'll always feel "trapped in the flask".
edited 4th Jul '12 10:44:57 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
I never really saw him resurrecting Gluttony as a Pet the Dog moment, he was just recreating a minion (Though he says that he rid himself of his sins through his children, so I wonder if he had re-acquired Gluttony, and wanted to expel the sin, but that makes little sense in that he did not recreate the others when lost). And the effectiveness of Gluttony is rather pitiful, one wonders why Lust, a more effective agent, wasn't recreated. I can only assume that Gluttony's failed truth gate could have helped him further his plans by absorbing any unforeseen hiccups. That said, I don't really know if Father is a complete monster. He's too alien and the Blue and Orange Morality makes one wonder. He does have an Alas, Poor Villain moment, and his true goal, to finally be free is both Alien and easy to understand. I think the page mentions this, but we do need to get rid of non-examples.
edited 5th Jul '12 12:58:01 AM by DrPsyche
I want to discuss a potential removal of other villains. Soto and Captain Gutt from Ice Age. The former is on the main page and on film's YMMV while the latter is only on YMMV.
Italics are never a good sign.
Soto shouldn't be on there; he's motivated by revenge, which is something we can all understand. He's evil, but he clearly cared for his pack considering the lengths he's going to revenge. As for the Pirate...yeah, italics are bad. I say cut both and tell them to come here to discuss it.
I sent PM to the user who added Captain Gutt. You won't believe who added Soto; brony99! He has been banned ages ago already, and this only confirms to remove Soto. Brony should NEVER be take seriously.
edited 5th Jul '12 5:58:51 AM by Krystoff
Any way to scan all the CM subpages for edits made by him? I tried using ctrl+f of the word brony for the Disney subpage edit history and for the Western Animation subpage edit history and couldn't find any of his edits. I think if we can find whichever edits were made by him, we should revert them by default, and list them here. If a character really is a CM, someone with a better understanding of the trope can make the case for why they should be on the list. EDITED IN: Are we (mostly) agreed with regards to keeping Scroop off the list? In hindsight I might have been a bit pre-emptive about making the edit request, but I still think it was a better edit to make, in light of the user arguing for Scroop's CM status seeming less experienced with these discussions than those arguing against, and the reasoning for showing some classic signs of the trope decay. (Ie. "X character is cool" etc...)
edited 5th Jul '12 7:05:54 AM by HiddenFacedMatt
I am fine with removing Scroop, but I haven't seen the consensus that he doesn't count. I saw most users claiming that he does count. Another problem is with Scar. He is a very tricky case. Originally everyone wanted to remove him, now everyone wants him back...
I have no issues with keeping Scar. He certainly meets all the criteria; his having jealousy as a motivation is hardly a reason to exclude him. Given that he's a villain in a children's show who could easily fit into a much darker story, I'd say the advantages of keeping him outweigh the disadvantages. As for Scroop, I was staying out of this conversation because I didn't really care, but let's cut him. I remember watching Treasure Planet at eight or nine and finding him mildly creepy at best. He certainly didn't have the impact on me that say Scar, or Mulan's Shan-Yu, or even Maleficent had. @ Krystoff—if you haven't cut Soto yet, please do. While wanting revenge doesn't exclude him (one can want revenge and still be totally selfish about it) the fact that he wants it not for himself, but for his packmates, does. Regarding my earlier question about Father—does he stay or go? I've only gotten one response; do I need to provide more information about the character to the forum? (To answer an earlier question, the reason he doesn't bring back Lust is because he can't; Roy completely destroyed her).
edited 5th Jul '12 8:01:56 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar
He is already gone. So is Scroop. I also think that we really should discuss Scar very carefully, and return to discussing the sandbox for characters from Video Games.
edited 5th Jul '12 7:56:43 AM by Krystoff
Go to the "Edit request for a locked page" thread in Frequently Asked Questions. (That was in response to what you had there earlier, but it bears mentioning for future reference.)
edited 5th Jul '12 7:57:21 AM by DarkConfidant
I got the impression that, of the few users involved in that sub-conversation about Scroop, (here's where it started) Dr Psyche was for, Footsteps was against, and others weren't sure. (Shaoken at first seemed to be against, but later stated that he was on the fence as he hadn't seen the movie.) Perhaps we could use a crowner to find out? My point wasn't just that he was jealous, but that he had a bit of an excuse to feel entitled to such power when the one who had it only did because he was physically stronger. In any case, we need to keep it to one character at a time. Let's get the discussion about Scroop out of the way first before we further discuss Scar, because if we keep jumping all over the place here we won't make much progress.
edited 5th Jul '12 8:01:57 AM by HiddenFacedMatt
Scroop has already been removed. There is not point of discussing him. It is too late.
That... makes no sense. Just because he's already removed does not mean he cannot just as easily be put back if there is consensus to do so.
I don't know, it was a mixed discussion, there's no guarentee we'd reach a different consensous without new opinions. That said if some new opinions want to make themselves known, that'd be grand.
I think we should now go back to the sandbox.
@1436: I apologize if me thinking the character is cool got in the way of my argument. I said it in response to another troper claiming that Complete monsters cannot have an Evil Is Cool factor, at all. Now I like Disney villains, to me, they are the classics. But my favoritism towards them does not diminish the fact that I think Scroop is a depraved psycho and a Complete Monster. Also, if you remove him, please do so from the YMMV page on Treasure planet, so many cut examples from the subpages somehow don't get cut from the work's YMMV page. My opinion still stands about him being a CM, if no one agrees, that's fine, I've been told someone cut him already. Still, don't dismiss the evidence I gave of his actions because of my opinion of him.
edited 5th Jul '12 10:35:42 AM by DrPsyche
I said it in response to another troper claiming that Complete monsters cannot have an Evil is Cool factor, at all.Hmm? Do you have a link to said claim? Anyway, it never occurred to me that Treasure Planet's YMMV page may have had a CM entry, but even now that I know it's there, I'm hesitant to crosswick the removal until we've come to a clearer decision, such as a crowner to confirm consensus, or mod statement on what to do or whatever else. I still find Footsteps' arguments more convincing than yours, but I am waiting on such a clearer decision before crosswicking the removal and moving on to Scar.
edited 5th Jul '12 12:12:46 PM by HiddenFacedMatt
I bring up the YMMV page because there was a few problems with miscommunication in removing Maleficent from the C Ms and not the YMMV. I honestly didn't see any of Scroop's loyalty to anyone in the movie, but, seeing as he was cut, it was apparent to more people, perhaps I should watch the movie again. The post I reacted to was on page 57, from you it seems. I mistook you saying that A CM being played for revulsion and not Coolness, as CM's cannot be Evil Is Cool. I also misspoke in my answer in that saying Cm's are cool, as it could have been taken that rooted for these depraved sickos. I was just agreeing with Krystoff's comment. I believe that Evil Is Cool does not impact on a CM's status that much. Coolness is audiences enjoyment, and CM is the depravity they can sink to. While, I do like the characters I mentioned in a Love to Hate sort of way, they are still very evil people. However, the fact that I like these characters shouldn't be grounds for dismissing my arguments (Footstep's arguments, however, argue against my point, and I will accept if those are what got him cut).
edited 5th Jul '12 12:39:33 PM by DrPsyche
Pronounced YAK-you-lussOK, ran through Bulletstorm. Here's the skinny on Sarrano:
edited 5th Jul '12 1:18:30 PM by Iaculus
Freedom of speech includes the freedom for other people to call you out on your bullshit.
On Disney page there are 5 villains. Those villains are my top five who in my opinion are most evil on the list. They are NOT m favorites. I want to discuss them because I find NO reason for them to be gone, I might be wrong like I was with Rodrigo Borgia. Number 1 should NEVER be gone, 2, 3, and 5 are quastionable while number 4 is decidedly a CM. 1.
edited 5th Jul '12 2:51:01 PM by Krystoff
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