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The problem there is Light had other people on the 'get to them later' list, and even intended to get to lazy people. When Mikami brought this up, Light is only frustrated because There's nothing he does that isn't spoiled by selfishness. Utopia Justifies the Means only works if one desires the utopia to make things better. Light wants it to create a world 'worthy' of him to be the God of. All of his motivations come down to "I am awesome." I don't intend to argue it overmuch now, so let's move on
Join the Hive; we have cookiesI just remembered a couple more Marvel/X-Men characters who might be worth discussing, from the Too Good to Last series X-Statix. Now X-Statix was a strange little book in that its stars in any other book would not be good people at all; rather than being superheroes, they're Glory Hounds who essentially "play" superheroes on TV. However, they are quite sympathetic and do have something of a moral compass, and twice have to deal with a Mole in Charge problem, which are the characters I'm about to submit: the Coach and Mr. Freeman. Freeman is the owner of the team while the Coach is their manager, but both are utter balls of slime who repeatedly nearly destroy the team. They both deliberately set up team members to die on multiple occasions, the Coach to increase ratings, Freeman to cover up his shady business dealings (and by "shady" I mean "he sold Saddam Hussein the gas he used in his genocide of the Kurds"). Also the Coach is a rapist, and by the end of his arc he tries to kill the entire team once they learn what he did to their friends.
I'm going to join those saying no Death Note examples. While I personally don't think that Light had any good traits, he's ambiguous enough that including him would set a bad precedent, and nobody else measures up. To those asking about Higuchi: Higuchi was the Third Kira. An uninspiring corporate drone, he was given the Death Note during the period when Light was amnesiac. He then uses it to kill his corporate rivals. Now, unlike Light, he clearly has no good traits or positive intentions. The problems however, are many. He's a pawn of Light's for starters (even if Light doesn't remember that at the time), and he never kills anywhere near the number of people that Light, Misa, Takada, or Mikami killed. Heck, Sociopathic Hero Mello may have hurt/killed more people, and he's at least nominally, on the side of the angels. Additionally, there's the problem of how Higuchi does business. He gather several likeminded individuals from the Yotsuba Group. They sit around the table and decide who to kill. Then, afterwards, Higuchi kills the people they've agreed to murder. This way he's able to keep his identity somewhat camoflaged (everyone in the group knows that one of the others is Kira #3, but none of them know which one). However, it also means that all the members of this little council are every bit as complicit as Higuchi. With all that in mind, he's got to go. He may be the biggest jerk in the show, but he's overshadowed by Light, and does not distinguish himself at his own tier. I could use more opinions on those film examples I posted on this page, and on The Beast from Berserk (same page). They sound like possibilities. Care to elaborate?
edited 3rd May '13 9:30:51 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
I'll say cut 'em all
Join the Hive; we have cookiesThere's not much more to say, as the series didn't last very long. The Coach's wrongdoings are revealed first; the first issue of the series ends with almost the entire team being killed in a single page while fighting some assassins, and it's later revealed that the Coach hired the assassins to get rid of all the 'ugly' mutants on the team to increase ratings. The Coach then sends his Co-Dragons to get rid of the current team members when they find this out (but a guest-starring Wolverine takes care of them) and tries to rape Edie, one of the team members; she ends up shooting him. Freeman sticks around quite a bit longer, but it's eventually revealed that the Serial Killer that is the team's current assignment was actually hired by Freeman to bump off everyone who knew about his deal with Saddam, including an honorary member of the team who is likely the only completely-good character in the series. The team leader, Guy, then breaks Freeman's neck, and that's the end of him.
edited 3rd May '13 9:41:36 PM by HamburgerTime
Complete Monster EditorThey seem like possibilities.
I am the Phoenix KingI have an example that is way to long
Complete Monster EditorToo real life? Nice condensing though. BTW: Speaking of X-Statix: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/XForce
I think I have a candidate for web origonal: Alex Timmons from Dexter Early Cuts, an animated web series that acts as a prequel to Dexter, showing us his "early cuts" (first victims). Alex Timmons was a sniper who shot and killed 3 civilian children in the war. No reason is given for why he did this other than for fun. He always liked to shoot children. Even before he became a sniper, he started off hunting as a kid, and liked to shoot young fawns instead of grown deer. He gives a Slasher Smile after killing a child. We see him observing a playground, likely intending to kill the children. Thankfully, Dexter kills him. The web series is much sorter than the actual series and around 3 minutes long, so you can look it up and judge him yourself.
No, the other one.Any particular ones? I only saw things about Dexter, and several I couldn't watch in my country. From the description you gave he does seem to fit, though considering the nature of the show, I don't know if there are worse people.
edited 4th May '13 9:35:58 AM by AnotherDuck
@Ambar: Agree with cutting Godzilla from Giant Monsters all out Attack for failing the heinous standard and Ivan Korshunov from Air Force One for having redeeming qualities. I believe we talked about Henry already. The consensus was he qualified but he needed a rewrite. I think Largo Quagmire gave a rundown of his deeds. Agree with removing everything about Slater, and I'm not sure his aunt qualifies either unless she intended to turn him into a Serial Killer. Finally, agree with cutting the Beast from Berserk since it fails the heinous standard and has questionable moral agency. Re Death Note: Agree that no one in the series qualifies. @12415: If Clu has the same Well-Intentioned Extremist motives as the movie then yes, cut. If Frollo's entry is a Zero-Context Example, cut him too. @12427: On-the-fence. I don't know if they meet the general heinous standard of the Marvelverse. @12432: While I agree that's a better write-up, I'm not sure the example counts since he only conducts one murder alongside some abuse. By the way, Alderich Killian is listed on YMMV.Iron Man 3. Not saying he doesn't count (though that entry's pretty poor) but I know he was never discussed here before being added. Should we just cut him and wait a week or two before discussing him? I think Footsteps proposed a waiting policy like that a while ago. This way more people can actually see the movie, since it only came out a week ago internationally and came out just yesterday in the U.S.
edited 4th May '13 10:49:43 AM by OccasionalExister
Just zis guy^ I have no problems with waiting on considering CMs for IM3 a few weeks. I'm not all that certain he qualifies, anyway, but I haven't gone through the CM checklist to see about qualifications. Also, cutting the CM entries in Schlock Mercenary, as no one has objected.
Yeah, let's enforce a waiting period there. We can discuss him soon and determine if he qualifies
Given the generally positive reviews Iron Man 3 has been getting, I think I'm actually going to take the rare step of seeing it in a theater. So I'd definitely appreciate holding off on discussions for now.
@Death Note examples: Higuchi's the only potentially solid keeper there. Rod Ross was certainly the most despicable person in that arc of the series (less redeemable than Knight Templar Mello or even Light who at least restrained himself from endangering his family) but he didn't really back it up with despicable actions beyond being a standard mob boss. I don't know about Matoba and it's zero context anyway. Takuo is the definition of Offscreen Villainy: he was just an Asshole Victim. As for Light, I shall always hold to my belief that only by the last stretch of the series (when he had Mikami and Takada working for him) Light did become a Complete Monster. However, that might be too YMMV for the trope we're trying to define nowadays. Also, while the Death Note did exert an evil Hellish force that corrupted him (like the one ring of power), it was all still Light's own personal issues it preyed off of, and Light's own choices to commit the heinous crimes he did. His heart was corrupted, but not his mind. Simply put, Light was always a bit of a born psychopath deep down, with an inflated ego, his own childish view of justice and self-centered sense of right and wrong. Had he not picked up the Death Note, he could've gone into the crime-busting business and been an amoral, somewhat insane detective like L, Mello, or Near. Instead, he got warped into The Sociopath he is for most of the series. The Death Note might have claimed Light's soul, but Light is responsible for knowingly and deliberately selling that soul in the first place. The series makes it clear (with characters like Misa, Mikami, Takada, Mello, and even a criminal in the Near-based bonus chapter) that while everyone can get influenced by the Note, only few are that inherently fucked up to take it far enough. Ryuk is in constant awe of just how far Light is willing to go with his murder sprees, and he and Near both note in the bonus chapter that most new Kiras wouldn't have it in them the same way Light did. (Or in Ryuk's words, the Kira sucessors are less "fun" than the original.) So in the end, Light is held more accountable for his deeds than the Shinigami or their Death Notes.
edited 4th May '13 11:53:05 AM by AnewMan
Welcome to Draven tropes!Anyone else want to comment on the Bakugan examples I brought up? Lightysnake was the only other person who gave a vote.
Agree with cutting all the Bakugan examples except for Mag Mel and Zenoheld.
edited 4th May '13 2:04:25 PM by OccasionalExister
I think we have enough votes to cut all the Death Note examples now and the one from Berserk. I'll also burn that Godzilla entry, and start trying to figure out what exactly to do with the other bad film ones. In the meantime, I have a new character I would like to suggest: Yuri Grigorivich from the Dan Smith novel The Child Thief. Who is Yuri? What has Yuri done? The novel is set in 1930 in the Ukraine. Yuri is a veteran of WWI and the Russian Civil War. He misses the fighting, and so, in order to amuse himself, comes up with a way to get that rush back: he kidnaps a child or children from a village, and when the kid's friends and family come after him, he picks off the pursuers one at a time. It's a game he's played several times by his own admission, but the novel deals with a specific incident, so that's what I'll be describing. Anyway, at the start of the book, the father of Yuri's two most recent kidnapees staggers into the village of Vyriv, dragging a sled on which are the corpses of his son and daughter, both killed and mutilated by Yuri. He himself has been shot by Yuri, and is near death. In the chaos that the man's arrival causes (the villagers think he is the child killer and lynch him) Yuri slips into town and kidnaps Dariya, niece of the novel's protagonist, Luka. Luka, Dariya's father Dimitri, and Luka's sons Viktor and Petro set off after him. Over the course of the novel, Yuri proceeds to gutshoot Dimitri, leaving him to die a slow, agonising death. Luka notes that had Yuri wanted to, he could have killed Dimitri instantly, but instead he makes his death as slow as possible. He also tries and fails to kill Luka and his sons. When Yuri and his pursuers run into a Red Army detachment, he loses Dariya and Luka retrieves her; we discover then that Yuri has sliced away most of her right thigh and smoked it for eating later on. When Luka escapes from the Red Army, Yuri pursues he and Dariya, planning to regain ownership of her. He kills Petro the same way that he killed Dimitri and tricks Luka into killing an innocent soldier named Anatoly, before Luka puts him down. He admits, as he is dying, that after killing Luka and Viktor he planned to cook and eat Dariya. Are his actions heinous by the standards of the setting? Yes. The Red Army soldiers that we encounter are bastards, but none of them are as sadistic as Yuri, and most of them are disgusted by the idea of cannibalism. When the Red Army catches Luka and Dariya, the local leader, Lemerentov believes that Luka is the one who has mutilated Dariya, and plans to hang him for it. Lemerentov and Luka actually have a very good conversation about war, and what it makes people do; both of them find what Yuri has done to be vile beyond belief. Does he have any redeeming traits? No. Yuri's only sympathetic moments (when he is pretending to be a fellow prisoner in order to screw with Luka) are revealed to be lies. Beyond that he never shows concern for another human being, has no family or friends to speak of, and treats other people as targets. This is again contrasted with Lemrentov, who actually has some redeeming traits, and hates himself for what he has done for Stalin. Freudian Excuse? None. Yuri's a veteran, but there is no evidence of shellshock, and any other excuse is absent. It's worth noting that Luka is a Shell-Shocked Veteran for the Imperial, Red, and Black Armies, yet is nowhere close to the monster that Yuri is. Similarly, Lemrentov, who has Stalin in back of him, still has human feelings. Yuri has none of that. Conclusion: I'd say add, but I'm curious as to the opinions of others.
I'll vote for that one
That's got my vote. A classic case of a sociopath who belongs on the page.
No, the other one.Kills and tortures people for kicks, cannibal, lies about the only redeeming traits he would have had... Well, I think he fits considering the setting is based on any kind of real life. Is the story essentially about Yuri, or is there more to it? Though, I kind of doubt it would matter much, since if there would be anything that would overshadow him, that would be an even better candidate, which I assume there's not.
The novel is about our protagonist, Luka, chasing down the titular child thief (Yuri; whose name we do not know until much later on). Along the way, a lot of other things happen (Luka and his sons save a girl from the Red Army, Luka gets captured by the Red Army, Luka stages a jailbreak and saves all the other prisoners that the Red Army was holding) but the main thrust of the novel is always running down Yuri and getting Dariya back. The only other villain of note is the aforementioned Lemerentov, a Red Army commissar who captures Luka about halfway through the book. Lemerentov, however, has standards, is horrified by Yuri's handiwork (which he thinks Luka is responsible for), and has a major Pet the Dog at the end when he lets Luka go. He's also fully aware of the fact that he is doing bad things, but with the High Command in back of him, and Stalin in back of them, he does not believe he has much choice. Yuri, in contrast, has none of those things going for him.
No, the other one.So essentially the other bad guys end up contrasting how horrible Yuri is? Got a good writeup for it?
Pretty much. The other villains are engaged in some serious crimes, but its all on instructions from Stalin. None of them like doing it, and most of them are conscripts who just want to go home. Even Lementerov has no idea why he is being ordered to do the things that he is being ordered to do. He's unsure if he's a bad person who occasionally does good things, or a good person forced to do bad things, as he tells Luka at the end. Yuri on the other hand, is a psychopath who isn't taking orders from anybody, and continues to play his game because, and I'll quote here "Don't you miss it? The excitement of hunting another man? Fighting? Killing?" And then there's this bit: Luka: Exciting? Torturing a little girl? That's exciting to you? How many other children did you murder? Yuri: Many. But she was going to taste so good. Working on a writeup. Have asked that the Death Note examples be removed from the anime subpage and that the one version of Godzilla, Ivan from Air Force One, and Slater from 3 all be cut from the film subpage. Removed The Beast from Berserk myself. On the YMMV page for Godzilla, Space Godzilla is listed, in addition to Ghidorah and Gigan (whom we voted to keep) and Hedorah and Destoroyah (whom we voted to cut; they are gone now). This is one of the films I haven't seen. Anybody know if he actually belongs? As previously noted, examples from 88 MM, The Condemned, and now that I check, A Serbian Film remain on the page. What were the votes on all of those?
edited 4th May '13 5:29:14 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Join the Hive; we have cookiesFrom what I remember... 8MM: Four to Christian and Poole, two and two to Velvet and Longsdale, and three and one to Machine. Condemned: Unanimous to Saiga, unanimous to Breckel, and a dead split on McStarley due to the moment where he randomly acquires standards so the film can get on its soapbox.
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