Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

I disagree with Alexis. Not only does that example overflow with material that is too petty for Complete Monster, (s)he doesn't look all that heinous.

Please refresh my memory: What makes the Kleinfelds so much worse than other killers?

I also vote against Alexis. It seems like that Migonistic streak we've seen too much here where female villians are judged more harshly. Alexis is bad, but there are plenty of villians on par with her who are also far from the worse. It sounds like people are just pissed she didn't get killed off or tortured. Either way I still vote cut.

I've put up a Complete Monster example on Mage: The Awakening, and I'd like to have someone else who is familiar with the game's lore look into it.

I personally feel the character described fits all three criteria, but I'd prefer to have it looked over as well.

Well two questions about the Banisher; does he appear in any of the fiction of the book? And Banishers lack moral agency in regards to Mages due to magic literally making them ill and their condition making them hate Mages and Magic, so does he have enough to qualify despite that?

His history is detailed out enough in the book: what he does, why he does it, who he is as a person.

And he doesn't suffer from that instinctive revulsion Banishers feel towards magic: he just likes to hunt down Mages because he sees himself as a predator. The Banisher ethos is just an excuse he uses.

Something I've been wondering about — Can an Anthropomorphic Personification of evil or a character literally made out of evil (like Armus in Star Trek: The Next Generation) qualify as a Complete Monster?

My instinct says no, since it can easily be said that they don't really have a choice in doing supreme acts of evil — that's their entire reason for being. It would be rather like accusing a War God of being warlike, or a Love Goddess of being loving.

Also, I've found a lot of examples that I think need to be discussed. Can I bring them all up at once?

edited 3rd Apr '13 8:34:41 AM by Morgenthaler

Alixus is no different from the various oppressive alien leaders of the week we see all the time in Trek, which is why I voted to cut her and still support cutting her.

I think that its been agreed that one needs moral agency to qualify for being a CM and being Made of Evil usually indicates a lack of moral agency.

edited 3rd Apr '13 8:35:41 AM by lrrose

@10957: Whether such a character can qualify for Complete Monster depends upon whether they have the moral agency to choose whether to be evil or no.

Yes, you can bring up new examples, but please also make a reasonable effort to discuss the others.

Ok, then. First my contribution to some examples that were already brought up.

@ 10949: I second the improved Indentation. I already cleaned up some Natter-like Indentation on TNG's YMMV page for CMs, to make it more readable and help in clean-up efforts. That page also lists Armus though, who I don't think really qualifies as I mentioned above, because he's literally a black liquid made out of hate.

@ 10926: Re: The Djinn from Wishmaster.

First of all, those Djinns are apparently different characters. There's no real continuity from the second to the third film, and from the third to the fourth, so we're likely dealing with three different characters that all need to independently qualify (the first one in part 1 and 2 played by Andrew Divoff, the second in part 3 played by John Novak, and the third in part 4 also played by John Novak).

I'm not really sure if the third Djinn did fall in love with that woman though. He's bound to do wishes, and she wished that she could love him for who he really is, so he has to make some effort to make her willingly fall in love with him.

The Djinns are supremely evil beings with no redeeming qualities, and their actions are strictly for the sake of doing evil, so they would normally qualify. This brings me back to my initial question, however, and the reason I brought it up in the first place: If a character which does evil but is compelled by their nature to do evil, how far can that be taken? Does a member of an Always Chaotic Evil race of Orks not qualify? What about demons?

edited 3rd Apr '13 9:08:48 AM by Morgenthaler

The bigger issue there is that they look like a group.

It's only one Djinn we're discussing here, Septimus.

Well, if the Djinn is compelled to do evil, he's not up for consideration.

He isn't. He's just a dick who views humans as vermin and toys for his amusement. He's compelled to grant wishes but damned if he won't torture you with it.

Nothing indicted the Djinn is compelled to do what he does. He chooses to. At one point in movie 1 he makes this clear to the heroine by showing her his true nature and making it clear its his choice all the way

edited 3rd Apr '13 9:17:47 AM by Lightysnake

I suppose you mean the first one? The ones in part 3 and 4 are different characters from what I can tell.

Yeah. The first was by far the worst

@Shaoken

I wonder if one of the problems is that female villains so rarely cross enough lines to qualify, that it makes the bad ones seem worse.

Speaking of which, I have a female villain I'd like to discuss, and this one ain't based on misogyny. I found this on the YMMV page for Resident Evil The Darkside Chronicles:

• Complete Monster: Alexia Ashford is much more evil in this game. Of course, she was pretty nasty in the original to begin with. Alfred is also far, far more evil here as well, a stark contrast to his pathetically harmless status in Code Veronica.

It might be a terribly written example, but I've got Darkside Chronicles and would like to discuss it. Now, for those unfamiliar with the franchise, Alexia and Alfred Ashford are the Creepy Twins who serve as, respectivey, The Big Bad and The Heavy of Code Veronica. Darkside Chronicles, which is a compilation game including material from RE 2 and Code Veronica as well as a new mission that acts as a prequel to RE 4, has a massive section with them as the villains, and takes their evil, already extreme Up To Eleven.

Alfred clearly could not have counted in the original game. He was more narmy then anything else. DC cranks up his evil, and turns him into a genuinely chilling villain (your characters admit they'd sooner face an island full of zombies than deal with somebody this insane). That said, he still can't qualify. Alfred's so badly unhinged that his moral agency is in serious question. He suffers from dissociative episodes during which he hallucinates that he is Alexia. There's also his genuine (if creepy and twincesty) love for his sister. Nightmare Fuel Unleaded, definitely, but not this trope.

Alexia is a different case. In the original game, she returned Alfred's affection, and spent most of her screentime trying to avenge him, so she could not qualify. In DC that's gone. The first thing Alexia does after coming out of cryogenic storage is murder an already wounded Alfred, because, and I quote "He never was much fun. He couldn't even wake me up on time." She then uses the T-Veronica virus to turn everybody at the facility into a mind controlled zombie, transforms Claire's boyfriend, Steve, into a hideous, axe wielding monster and forces him to fight her to the death, makes repeated attempts on Claire and Chris' lives, and reveals that her ultimate plan is to spread the T-Veronica virus across the world, transforming everybody into a single Hive Mind with her as the Hive Queen. Tapes that you can find around the house show she was always this bad. We've got video of her pulling the wings off flies, audio of her, at age eleven, torturing another girl from her class to death for being as smart as she was, and audio of she and Alfred jointly torturing their father before turning him into a monster. As far as attempted bodycount goes, her ultimate plan is every bit as bad as what Wesker tried to do with Ouroboros in RE 5, and unlike Wesker, she makes no pretence about trying to aid human evolution.

The only real problem I could see with DC!Alexia's inclusion is the nature of the game: Leon Scott Kennedy is relating the events of the previous games to his new partner, Krauser. In Alexia's case that means a game of broken telephone is in effect, as Leon tells Krauser what Claire told him about Alexia. That being said, I'm not sure that should count against her. What I've just mentioned is more Fridge Logic than anything else (Leon never admits to not knowing how bad Alexia was, or anything of the sort) and DC may simply be an alternate continuity. More to the point, we decided quite some time ago that characters from a Show Within a Show can qualify (they just aren't likely to), so even if you take the Fridge Logic into account, the version of Alexia from Leon's story could still qualify.

Thoughts?

edited 3rd Apr '13 9:27:37 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

His entire race is Always Chaotic Evil, though. What needs to be hammered out is where do we draw the line with these type of examples? Sometimes it's hard to tell if members from such a race are sadistically evil because they genuinely want to or because it's in their nature.

edited 3rd Apr '13 9:28:03 AM by Morgenthaler

For the djinn though? Number 4 genuinely struggled with the choice to release his brethren even if he chose to be evil. I think it demonstrates the one who are evil do so by choice. I think it's a pass if we only get exposure to so few djinn and its made clear they choose their evil

@10945: CSI Crime Scene Investigation Examples:

• Kleins: Keep.
• The "Fannysmackin" Gang: Cut for being a group.
• Collinses: If we see him doing anything in flashback I could see keeping him.
• Nate Haskell: If he loved his mother and his father was worse, cut.
• Frank McCarty: On-the-fence. How much of this is onscreen?
• Gedda: If his crimes are common, cut.
• Dimasa: Going to say keep unless someone has good reasons on why he doesn't qualify.
• Gabriel: Leaning cut, sounds more like an enabler in it for the money than the sadism.
• McKeen: Cut for loving his son.

@10947: Write-ups look good for Highlander.

@10949: Star Trek write-ups also look good.

@10950: She doesn't sound as heinous as Lore and Favro, and it looks like she has a Well-Intentioned Extremist goal. Leaning towards cut.

@10967: I'll vote yes the Darkside Chronicles version of Alexia Ashford. I don't see Leon relating the story as a point against her since the audience still sees everything she does in the game itself.

I think it's important to note that if you haven't played Code Veronica, you would of course, have no idea that Alexia wasn't this bad in it. I figure that if/when we do a write up, I'll start it with "Alexia Ashford, as presented in Darkside Chronicles" or something similiar. Touching on the nature of the game, without getting sidetracked.

Agree on cutting Alexis/Alixus/whatever the name of that Star Trek example was. I just realised that while I made a comment to Shaoken about the double standard issues we've been dealing with, I never made it clear I was against the example. I haven't seen the show or the episode, but it doesn't sound as though she stacks with the other examples.

edited 3rd Apr '13 10:50:37 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Alexia Ashford fits in my opinion. We're not supposed to think what's said about her is false or twisted in any way.

On crime stuff, should we remove the example I brought up for Bones, or not?

Sorry, yes I agree on cutting Gormogon. In most shows/series I'd be alright with just finding the corpses, but seeing as this is a police procedural show we see the corpses of victims all the time so I don't think such characters can count unless we see at least one onscreen attempted killing that fits their MO. Also, if he literally doesn't even speak than he has nowhere near characterization enough necessary to make it into this trope.

@10952: The Klinefelds' entry says they're a pair of Serial Killers who kidnap husbands and wives. They threaten to rape the wives which forces their husbands to kill the women they love to spare them from that fate. Their reasons for doing so aren't explained so they seem to do it For the Evulz.

@10971: Maybe also include mentioning that the Darkside Chronicles version doesn't love her brother, unlike the Code Veronica version.

edited 3rd Apr '13 11:53:53 AM by OccasionalExister

Re: Frank McCarty: Ooh, yeah, forgot about him in my writeup. He's a tough one to qualify because while his crime is technically onscreen, it's not in a flashback as is usual for this show but rather a dream sequence, making it uncertain if it actually occurred that way in reality.