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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster get usage counts

Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

edited 15th Jan '13 1:45:24 PM by Fighteer

I have not read it, I was just casting a vote based on what I heard, I could find out though.

So what do you all think of Gary Smith, does he meet the cut or what?

edited 30th Mar '13 12:35:49 PM by bobg

 
 10777 shoboni, Sat, 30th Mar '13 12:36:05 PM from Iowa, USA
@Cam, yes, twice if you count the Tumblr, and he mentions several of his victims by name in one of the offical side stories. He just sees it as a game and calls it "playing with them".

edited 30th Mar '13 12:37:16 PM by shoboni

"It's not that simple. We are all both, good and evil, we have rage and compassion, we have love and hate...murder and forgiveness."
 10778 ACW, Sat, 30th Mar '13 12:49:09 PM from Arlington, VA (outside of DC) Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
For the Walker examples, I guess you could use the leaders of the groups?
I think Zola doesn't count..he's usually the least heinous guy in the room and has a lack of onscree deeds

 10780 ACW, Sat, 30th Mar '13 2:46:40 PM from Arlington, VA (outside of DC) Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
[up] Cut from sig. So only Strucker, Ultron, and Red Skull for Cap. America and Avengers monsters? Actually, makes sense. Sull seems like (one of) the biggest CMs in Marvel.

Green Lantern needs some agreement. Lighty, special thanks to you for all your comic help. Shout-out to Ambar as well. [tup][tup][tup]
Yep.

Quite honestly...the GL section looks good. Krona is a worthy addition. In all honesty...Romat-ru is enough of a background character that I'm gonna give a final vote to keep him with the text based background being enough for me.

I finally got the chance to look over Baron von Strucker's list of crimes, and I'm okay with his inclusion. He seems more of a general Marvelverse villain than The Red Skull (who will always be associated with Cap) is, which removes one of my concerns about his being overshadowed. He also operates differently enough that I don't think we have to compare them. So add my vote to those saying "aye".

@ACW

Would agree with Ultron, Strucker, and The Skull being the only ones who can qualify vis a vis Cap and the Avengers. The Skull and Ultron in particular are so awful that there's essentially no one who can stack with them.

RE: Green Lantern

Romat-Ru is one of those examples I'm torn on. On the one hand, he's such a nonentity. On the other hand one could easily argue his crimes are onscreen and he does meet the other criteria. I think I'm going to say cut simply because he's yet to do anything in-story and apart from his fellow lunatics; he's basically just a face in a crowd. As soon as he does something major I think we can discuss readding him.

@bobg

Going to say cut on Gary for a different reason: he's off his meds at the end. However dark he might make the finale, and however much he might ratchet up the heinousness, his moral agency is in serious question.

edited 30th Mar '13 3:49:23 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

 10783 ACW, Sat, 30th Mar '13 3:55:47 PM from Arlington, VA (outside of DC) Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
I'm trying to figure out to consolidate the Nekron (and Black Hand) entries from Blackest Night YMMV and Green Lantern YMMV...
 10784 lrrose, Sat, 30th Mar '13 4:02:25 PM Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
So I finished watching Star Trek: Deep Space Nine earlier today and figured that it would be a good idea for me to look at the various Star Trek CM entries.

Courtesy link to the Live Action TV CM Page

From Star Trek: The Next Generation:

Lore. This is a complicated one. Lore is the Evil Twin of the android protagonist Data. Unlike Data, Lore was created with the ability to have emotions. Unfortunately, this turned Lore into something of a sociopath. When Lore learned that his creator intended to deal with his sociopathy by deactivating him, Lore lured an Eldritch Abomination to the planet they were on. Said abomination killed everyone on the planet except Lore and Data, just as he intended. Lore later leads a crusade to wipe out organic life.

Lore is listed as a CM for trying to kill Wesley (who was a kid at the time) and for leading the Borg on the aformentioned crusade to wipe out organic life.

Still, I don't think that Lore qualifies. In "Brothers", he is reunited with his creator, Dr. Soong and seems to be geniunally upset to learn that Soong is dying. This doesn't stop Lore from killing him, but it shows enough humanity to disqualify him. From time to time, Lore also shows that he cares about Data.

Next up, Kivas Favro, the villain of "The Most Toys". Favro is a Collector of the Strange who wants to add Data, the only known android in the galaxy, to his collection. To do this, he poisons the water supply of an inhabited planet so he can capture Data while selling the supplies needed to save the planet to the heroes.

Favro is listed as being a CM because he kills one of his subordinates with a weapon designed to kill its victims slowly and painfully. IIRC, Favro has a horrified look on his face when he uses it, but this doesn't stop him from threatening to do it to another subordinate if Data does not comply with him. The entry goes on to discuss how the emotionless Data concludes that Favro is so evil that he deserves to die, but that's more You Monster!.

I'm inclined to support keeping Favro. As far as bad guys of the week go for Trek, he's among the worst.

Next up is Armus, the villain from "Skin of Evil". Armus is the result of a race of Sufficiently Advanced Aliens casting off all their evil. Armus' crimes are as follows:

  • Killing main cast member Tasha Yar, an act only differentiated from the various deaths of Red Shirts throughout Trek by the fact that Tasha was a main cast member.
  • Trapping a shuttle, but not killing either of its two ocupants.
  • Torturing Riker.

Armus should be cut. Aside from his questionable moral agency (he is Made of Evil, after all), he doesn't really do that much compared to other Trek villains. The entry also has some more You Monster! confusion.

Onto Star Trek: Deep Space Nine:

The Female Changing. She's the leader of the Dominion, an empire that seeks to conquer the galaxy and has committed multiple acts of genocide in the process. She is listed because in the series finale, she orders the entire Cardassian species killed for betraying the Dominion. This order results in the deaths of over 800 million Cardassians.

IMO, this is closer to Moral Event Horizon, than CM-hood. For starters, the Female Changing cares deeply about her species. At one point, she remarks that she would stop her conquest of the Alpha Quadrant if it would bring Odo, a rogue Changeling and one of the main cast members, back to the other Changlings. The biggest nail in the coffin of her CM-hood is that she surrenders to save her people from a deadly plauge. The Female Changling should be cut.

Gul Darhe'el is listed as a CM. As the entry notes, it turns out that he's a Posthumous Character and the guy the audience thought was Darhe'el as just mad with grief. Everything Darhe'el did was Offscreen Villainy. Cut him.

Gul Dukat. Dukat was the former leader of the Cardassian occupation of Bajor. During his reign, five million Bajorans were murdered. However, this is all Offscreen Villainy. While there are plenty of flashbacks to Bajor under Dukat's rule, the only time we seem him have someone executed, another character is to blame. We are shown that he employed slave labor and kept pleasure women though.

Dukat eventually sells Cardassia out to the Dominion so he can rule, though whether it is for the sake of his ego or because he sincerely believes that he can make Cardassia strong is ambiguous. This ambiguity probably prevents this act from qualiying him.

After Dukat has a huge Villainous Breakdown in which he determines that the Bajorans are responsible for everything bad that has happened to him ever, he joins forces with the evil Pah Wraiths and attempts to release them, an act which Dukat claims will set the universe on fire.

There are two problems with this last act qualifying him. First, Dukat's Villainous Breakdown was caused by the death of his daughter, who he genuinely loved. Second, part of the reason why Dukat seeks to release the Pah Wraiths is that he is genuinely loyal to them.

tl;dr while Dukat does a lot of horrible things, he has enough Pet the Dog moments and moral ambiguity to disqualify him.

Alixus, the villain from "Paradise". I actually had to look up who she was on Memory Alpha. She's kind of a forgettable villain. Alixus is a luddite who secretly sabotaged her ship so it would crash on a habitable planet. She did this so she could turn the crew of her ship into a cult that lives without the evils of technology. Any defiance of her rules is punished through torture. She repeatedly subjects main character Commander Sisko to this torture for no reason other than to break his spirit.

Alixus is a pretty vile character, but I'm not quite sure that she's heinous enough to qualify, especially since she has shades of being a Well-Intentioned Extremist.

Star Trek: Voyager:

The Borg Queen, who is either the avatar or representative of the Borg Collective. The Borg Queen is hellbent on assimilating every race in the galaxy into the Collective. Assimilation is a brutal and painful process. The entry also notes that the Queen is shown to be aroused at the screams of people being assimilated.

That being said, the Queen genuinely believes that she is helping people by assimilating them. I'd say this disqualifies her.

On Deep Space Nine's YMMV page, Kai Winn is listed for blowing up a school to lure a political oppponant onto the eponymous station so she could have him assassinated. The school was empty at the time, but IIRC, Winn had no way of knowing that. Although Winn does a lot of nasty things, she ultimately gets a Redemption Equals Death moment, which should disqualify her.

edited 30th Mar '13 4:12:40 PM by lrrose

I have to challenge you on Dukat. Dukat is an example who becomes a CM by development. While he has Pet the Dog moments early on, these are revealed to be hollow later (when he admits he hated Bajor and should have killed them all)...when he joins the Pah Wraths, the entry specifically notes he sheds all previously good qualities and becomes a monster.

So, while he didn't qualify from seasons 1-6, by season 7 he does.

Okay, Rashomon has one of those "in-universe" entries, saying that Tajomaru tries to paint himself as one. I removed it, explaining how that's You Monster! and someone added it back saying "That is not a stock phrase. If you can't be bothered to repair, don't do it at all." How do I explain it to them better?

edited 30th Mar '13 6:00:09 PM by TVRulezAgain

 
 10787 shoboni, Sat, 30th Mar '13 6:11:03 PM from Iowa, USA
I took a look at what's there for Highlander:

Methos, during his Horseman days on Highlander. Not so much during the actual series. Methos: I killed a thousand. I killed TEN thousand and I was good at it. I was death. Death on a horse.

Methos shouldn't be here, he became a atoner over time, and even when we saw him evil, it was just standard robbing and ransacking, he was evil yes, but nowhere near this trope. He even fell in love with his slave girl over time(though he won't admit it)

A lot of one-off Immortals fit this description at times, though plenty are just Smug Snakes, Sympathetic Murderers, or Magnificent Bastards. There are some exceptions...of the Horsemen, Methos's closest friend Silas is a big, childish man who doesn't seem to comprehend his actions. Kronos, though? Kronos was worse than Methos: a murderous rapist who revels in destroying life (while Methos treated it with cold detachment). Kronos even planned to wipe out humanity for giggles. And then there's Caspian, who's a psychotic serial killer and cannibal.

Kronos may count(he does plot to infect the whole world with a virus, kill the hero, and attempts rape on screen until the girl stabs him) Caspian is shaky(we only here about most of his actions), and Silas is to much of a Woobie, you get the feeling he only kills and because it's all he was thought, he really has no malice of his own.

Kalas, the Big Bad of Season 3. Kalas used a sanctuary for immortals as a trap to hunt them down and kill them as they exited. When Duncan Mac Leod exposed him and had him exiled, Kalas retaliates, centuries later, by trying to strangle a girl Duncan might be having a fling with. In the present, Kalas is a ruthless manipulator and murderer. He can destroy someone's life easily and shows no remorse for those he uses as pawns in his game to hurt Mac Leod. One episode on season 1 featured a beauitful young woman on the run from an imposing, frightening immortal named Devereaux who wanted her hand, with strong insinuations Devereaux was a vicious killer of women. Turns out, he's hunting her because she murdered his wife and baby. This is her MO: to find skilled fighters, brutally kill their loved ones, and kill them when they're thrown off their game. Infuriatingly, she is a Karma Houdini while Deveraux dies in combat with her because Macleod's idiot sidekick convinces him to spare her. Agree here

There's Kern of Line of Fire. We first see Kern in the past, taunting Duncan over the death of his Lakota village...with their scalps. By his own admission, Kern gleefully tortures, rapes, pillages, and kills with no remorse.

Oh yeah, I agree with this too

One shot, brief villaisn Bryce Korland and Horvan Kant are vicious murderers and heavily implied to be the worst of the worst. There's Martin Hyde who tortures his prey psychologically to drive them to the brink, murdering thief Lyman Kurlow...Highlander had a LOT of these.

Shaky, we only see them do standard villain stuff

The worst one shot villain, though? Almost certainly Ernst Daimler, an unrepentant Nazi who, in his own words, has killed old men, children, mothers with babies in their arms...he still holds to Nazi philosophy and is just a nasty son of a bitch in general who ordered massacres of innocent civilians in the past and killed a kind old priest in the present

I'd say yes, but it's debatable if he does enough of it on screen

edited 30th Mar '13 7:40:56 PM by shoboni

"It's not that simple. We are all both, good and evil, we have rage and compassion, we have love and hate...murder and forgiveness."
 10788 Hamburger Time, Sat, 30th Mar '13 6:23:37 PM from Right behind you
You know you want it ♥
Update for Yu-Gi-Oh!. Remember when I mentioned that I didn't think ZEXAL had any candidates yet? I think it might have one now. Name: Vector. He's actually on the page already, but he was a decidedly hands-off Bigger Bad when that was added; since then, he's claimed full Big Badhood and gleefully skipped across as many Moral Event Horizons as humanly possible. You know what Sabretooth did to Daken in Uncanny X-Force? Yeah, he basically did that. He took human form, became Yuma's best friend, then staged a fake kidnapping on himself, all for the purposes of luring Yuma and his friends to his home dimension, where he's much stronger, so he can kill them.
I'll second Vexal after some research then.

On Lore from the Next Generaton...not sure. He seems to 'care' for Data in a sense that he wants a companion in his crusade and he does kill his 'father'...

Now for Highlander...

Methos? Cut

Kalas? Easy keep

Felicia Martins (the one who kills a baby and Claude Deveraux): Keep. UGH. Infant Immortality aversion is unique here.

Kern: Keeper

Kronos: Keep. Omnicidal Maniac for Highlander is unique.

Ernst Daimler: Keep. Almost everything he does is onscreen. Unrepentant Nazi and murderer

Korland and Kant...cut. offscreen villainy and informed attribute.

Xavier St. Cloud is a contender here as well.

 10790 randomtroper 89, Sat, 30th Mar '13 7:22:27 PM from The Fire Nation
I am the Phoenix King
Here's a few other group examples from the live action section:
  • The demons in the Spanish series Angel o Demonio are unbelievable bastards whose only purpose in life is to wreck lives with More Than Mind Control For the Evulz. They don't have the slightest bit of empathy; in fact, they laugh at the death of OTHER DEMONS. One of them, Alexia, releases a virus with the intention of destroying the most part of humanity, and when she fails, the others punish her, not because she had gone too far, but because she had been dominating them. Monsters indeed.
  • The Closer has the EE Kids from the season 4 episode "Time Bomb". 3 teenage Nietzsche Wannabe Omnicidal Maniacs who hoped to one-up the Columbine kids and set the record for the biggest mass murder in history. And the scary thing is, if one of them hadn't blown himself up making a pipe bomb and gotten Major Crimes involved, they may have pulled it off.
  • The "Fannysmackin" gang from CSI: Crime Scene Investigation are a group of about ten teenagers in Halloween masks who go around viciously beating the shit out of anyone who's wearing a fanny pack (who are usually tourists), killing one man. When Gregg tries to stop them, one of them takes off, running at him with a rock, intending to fling it through his window. What really settles this is the fact that they said they did all of this just out of boredom.

edited 30th Mar '13 7:33:02 PM by randomtroper89

cut them all

 10792 Hamburger Time, Sat, 30th Mar '13 7:36:54 PM from Right behind you
You know you want it ♥
[up][up] Is three enough to disqualify under the group clause? I don't think we ever reached a consensus on what the upper limit should be. It sounds like one of them dies pretty early on, too.

edited 30th Mar '13 7:37:31 PM by HamburgerTime

 10793 Shaoken, Sat, 30th Mar '13 7:51:50 PM Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
@TV Rulz, I'll take care of it. If they add it again Holler for mods.

 10794 lrrose, Sat, 30th Mar '13 9:25:27 PM Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
@Lightysnake:

Even after "Waltz" (where Dukat has his big Villainous Breakdown), Dukat shows a few signs of humanity (for lack of a better term). He mentions that he sought out the Pah Wraiths so they would help him avenge his daughter's death. That shows that he still cares about his daughter, although revenge by screwing over the universe is a rather twisted way of showing his affection. Also, he seems to be somewhat distraut when a Pah Wraith mortally wounds someone while possessing his body. Dukat actually apologizes to the person who was mortally wounded. While many of Dukat's Pet the Dog moments were to make other characters think he was a not as bad as they were led to believe, there was no point to doing that other than remorse.

I'm on the fence with Lore. He seems to alternate between viewing Data as his beloved brother and viewing him as a pawn.

edited 30th Mar '13 9:26:20 PM by lrrose

With Lore...I'll vote to keep after reviewing some things. Most of his loving nature to Data seems manipulative.

As for Dukat...you have a point. The writing on him was just so awful that he becomes Captain Evilpants Mc Crazy and forgets his daughter utterly soon.

That example for The Closer is awful. In addition to being a group, I highly doubt that a couple of high school kids with pipe bombs qualify for Omnicidal Maniac. If they can't get that trope right, why should we think they can get this one right? Burn it. Same goes for the other two groups.

Sounds like Dukat is almost too inconsistent to qualify for this trope.

edited 30th Mar '13 9:58:23 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

 10797 Hodor, Sat, 30th Mar '13 10:23:23 PM from Westeros
Cleric of Banjo
From what I understand/have read on this site, the creators were taken aback by the Misaimed Fandom toward Dukat (pretty reasonable, since he's essentially a Nazi war criminal), and so ended up flanderizing him/revealing him as baby eating evil.

So, I'd take his later characterization with a grain of salt, and even with that, it doesn't totally erase any good thing he did in the past (even if he says he wishes he had been a complete monster all along), nor apparently does he totally lose sympathetic qualities at that point.

edited 30th Mar '13 10:25:27 PM by Hodor

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Dick Tracy: Complete Monster: Quite a few of the villains.

Can anyone vouch for this? Besides breaking the No Groups rule and being a zero context example, should we cut this?

Also Silence of the Lambs:

Played very straight with Mason Verger, one of the most horrifying examples of all time. A child-molesting sadist who brutally raped his own sister. Once karma catches up with him in the form of Hannibal Lecter, the crippled Verger resorts to verbally and emotionally abusing children since he can no longer do it physically. Then he drinks martinis made from their tears. Really. Grutas from Hannibal Rising. He makes Hannibal look downright heroic by comparison. It says a lot about a person when the first thing he does is eat the protagonists baby sister and only gets worse.

Shawshank Redemption:

Complete Monster: Quite a few. It's a prison flick.

Warden Norton, who doesn't quite seem like this at first until he has Tommy murdered just to continue exploiting Andy. He gets Laser-Guided Karma, eventually. The Sisters. Elmo Blatch. But unlike the others, he never gets any comeuppance, as far as we know.

edited 30th Mar '13 11:26:01 PM by Klavice

Yeah, Mason Verger makes Hannibal look saintly by comparison...keeper.

Dick Tracy did have a ton of horrible villains, but honestly, it's been so long I can't remember the standouts...

As for Shawshank...Warden Norton's the worst

 10800 Shaoken, Sun, 31st Mar '13 4:08:58 AM Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
Okay, just to keep you guys informed, I've removed the Complete Monster entry from the main page of Rashomon and P Med the person who added it back in twice and was rude to TV Rulz again over it. He's...well, rude in his responses and states that You Monster! is a stock phrase that doesn't apply (his edit reason justification for using Complete Monster) and critising me for not trying to "repair" it (again, his justification for reverting TV Rulz's edit).

The issue is that the way he's using it it is infact a case of You Monster!; the character is describing himself as an unrepentent murderer and rapist, whilst the others story show he's just a cowardly bum with some thugish tendicies. Either way it was blatant misuse so I cut it, and so far the offending troper hasn't done anything but be rude via PM, so hopefully the matter is sorted but we should perhaps keep an eye on that page for the next few days.

edited 31st Mar '13 4:09:13 AM by Shaoken

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