Complete Monster Cleanup Thread
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before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
edited 15th Jan '13 1:45:24 PM by Fighteer
The Founder needs more voting, but that's 2/3 votes for him thus far.
Green Lantern should be easy as well. Delete Deathstorm, we decided on that long ago
I posed another question on Rice on the previous page.
Another vote for the Founder. That's fucked up.
Putting down a vote for the Founder as well.
Hugging a Vanilluxe
will give you frostbite.
It's typed rmctagg09
Ugh: Black Hand and Nekron: Green Lantern
in general, or just Blackest Night
I'd say Green Lantern as well, because they are related to the Black Lanterns, who are part of the GL-Franchise.
edited 22nd Mar '13 5:46:51 PM by Forenperser
Rice was sending X 23 to kill his boss and the guys family. Te man's son was Rice's from an affair. He didn't care
Why kill his boss?
EDIT: Also, Mephisto added. That Serpent was Fear Itself
, correct? Speaking of which, from the YMMV:
Complete Monster: The Serpent. All he wants is fear. Through death and destruction. No matter who, he must get everyone killed so he can have the power.
Sin/Skadi may be even worse, as she's entirely willing to go through with the plan, while the rest of the Worthy are just possessed. Adding to it that she's the daughter of a guy who's possibly the greatest Nazi comics villain ever... yeah.
That being said, their father/daughter interactions (ie. between The Serpent and Skadi) are strangely touching. Even Evil Has Loved Ones, after all.
Touching...or manipulative. Syn has well-known daddy issues and at least part of her lives on in Skadi (eg. her euphoria when she learns that the Captain America she killed was Bucky, since "she gets to kill Captain America twice); its not a stretch to imagine the Serpent is just purposely filling out that role for her for his own ends, and doesn't give a shit about her beyond that. Skadi being the actual daughter of the Serpent doesn't really undermine that.
edited 22nd Mar '13 6:43:04 PM by ACW
@10485 & 10501: I like those write-ups for Mephisto and Ninjette's father. Both sound like pretty solid keepers.
@10506: Agree with cutting Mick Cutler and Joel.
@10511: Agree with adding the Founder since he meets the heinous standard and he seems like he doesn't love his father, just respected his level of evil
@10516: I don't believe we've ever actually come up with a rule about whether crimes described in the "manuals"
of a work count as onscreen or not. I'd say it depends on the level of detail given. If it's just a brief sentence that says "he nuked a country" I'd say that's too little detail for the crime to count. If, on the other hand, it was described with a level of detail reserved for a passage from Lord of the Rings
I don't see why it couldn't count as "onscreen."
By the way, I deleted that line from Nekron's entry saying that Word of God
doesn't think of him as a Complete Monster
since we've decided authorial intent doesn't matter and people keep bringing that tidbit up as a reason for deletion despite the forum already deciding Nekron counts. Also Nekron was listed twice so I deleted his entry under the Green Lantern
section and replaced it with the standalone entry that was listed earlier on the page. Did we ever decide if Black Hand counts? His entry acknowledges that he was influenced by Nekron into being as evil as he is so his moral agency might be lacking.
edited 22nd Mar '13 7:03:31 PM by OccasionalExister
Welcome to Draven tropes!
Voting for the Founder, that guy is an asshole.
Join the Hive; we have cookies
Skadi is Sin and we already voted to cut her, due to genuinely (albeit insanely
) loving Crossbones, and paling in comparison to her bad dad
, who also essentially functions as a built-in Freudian Excuse
due to hating her for being a girl
. This isn't the original source for it, but it seems to be an identical reproduction.
edited 22nd Mar '13 8:33:19 PM by HamburgerTime
On the Film
page, in the entry for Mola Ram from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom
, shouldn't his Thuggee Cult be removed for being a group?
The Elder Scrolls
- Complete Monster: Molag Bal. Other Daedra, even seemingly entirely negative ones such as Clavicus Vile and Vearmina, have positive aspects. Not this jackass. There's a reason he's called the "King of Rape" despite only ever have committing one that we know of *.
What was decided for him with the Elder Scroll examples?
- Complete Monster: Moo. Created to be a Super Soldier to end the last war, he feeds off of hatred and lives to bring it forth in others. To that end he corrupted countless monsters, destroyed many villages, and killed countless people—and possessed Holly's father, using his connection to her to further his own goals. As Tiger put it, Moo is pure evil.
- And Lilim. In her first real appearance, she kidnapped a human baby to make Jagged Hound fight Tiger to the death. She only shows loyalty to those who are strongest, meaning she eagerly backstabs Durahan for Moo, and killed the general's Human Popsicle warriors while they were frozen. She also holds the distinction of being Killed Off for Real.
I don't know about Moo, but as for Lilim, it says she shows loyalty.
Masters Of Horror
- Complete Monster: The disfigured prostitute in Imprint or rather, her "little sister".
Lots of examples. None with context.
- Complete Monster: Morgan Slot/Morgan of Orris. Especially once they merge together.
- Osmond/Sunlight Gardener.
No context. Sunlight Gardener is listed on the Stephen King
page as brainwashing children, but nothing on the first one.
The Ten Commandments
- Complete Monster: Baka the Master Builder has no redeeming qualities. It's for good reason that Moses openly refers to him as the "Master Butcher".
I'm not sure about Baka. He's a scumbag hands down and extremely sinister (being played by Vincent Price
helps), but is he heinous for an Exodus film?
Which is worse? The pharaoh from the prologue committing mass infanticide out of fear of being overthrown? Or Baka abusing and torturing slaves for no apparent reason other than sadism
Could vote yes on The Founder. Sounds like a prick.
I still only have three votes, my own included on Allevrah Azinrae
. Also need more opinions on this sandbox
and whether it should be launched and two pages it is borrowing from cut. Again, I only have three votes, including mine.
Assuming that Allevrah is accepted, I thought I'd do this write up. I also thought that her fellow Pathfinder
CM, Kazavon could use some touch up on his entry. So here is my rewrite for how I would like the Pathfinder
examples to look when done.
- The Pathfinder Adventure Paths have brought us two charming individuals.
- Curse of the Crimson Throne: The followers of Zon-Kuthon, God of Envy, Pain, Darkness, and Loss tend to be a nasty bunch, with a penchant for torture and self-mutilation. Yet not a one of them—including quite possibly Zon-Kuthon himself—has ever come close to the level of atrocity perpetrated by Kazavon, Zon-Kuthon's one-time Champion. Essentially Vlad the Impaler in the form of a sixty foot Blue Dragon, Kazavon disguised himself as a human mercenary and offered to help the nation of Ustalav drive out the invading Orc hordes. Upon his victory, Kazavon set himself up as the dictator of the borderlands area, where he ruled with an iron fist, torturing to death all those who disagreed with him, including many of the soldiers who had served him faithfully up to that point. When his employer tried to reign him in, Kazavon flayed the man alive. He would go on to achieve truly special heights of depravity, holding torture parties, and orgies involving the undead, spreading his influence throughout the entire area, and having entire villages impaled for his entertainment. Kazavon was eventually killed by a party of heroes, but the madness didn't stop there. The Pure Evil of his soul contaminated his skeleton and threatened to resurrect him. The bones were crafted into seven Artifacts Of Doom and hidden throughout the country; contact with even one of them is enough to drive the wearer down a path of madness, murder, and ultimate self-destruction. When Queen Ileosa, Big Bad of the Adventure Path dons the crown, Kazavon influences her to murder her husband, turn Korvosa into a Police State, unleash a plague against the city's poorest citizens, and drain the lives of thousands in an effort to gain eternal youth (in reality, the spell will just resurrect Kazavon.
- Second Darkness: Allevrah Azinrae was once an Elven cleric of Nethys, God of Magic, and a hero in the nation of Kyonin. That was before she, with the aid of the Demon Lord Abraxas, conceived of a plan to exterminate the drow. When the fellow members of her Government Conspiracy refused to go through with the plot, Allevrah murdered her critics, transformed into a drow, and fled to the drow capital of Zirnakayinn, where she murdered the matron of House Azinrae and took it over. Desiring revenge on Kyonin, Allevrah plans to drop a meteor on the capital; if successful this plan will wipe out Kyonin and trigger an ice age that will kill most life on the planet. After a failed attempt at using the city of Riddleport as a test target, Allevrah retreats to the Land of Black Blood below Kyonin, where she prepares to summon her meteor. She also allows her lover (who is terrified of her) to perform hideous experiments that reduce the victims to masses of screaming black liquid, cuts deals with an aboleth mind rapist and a neolithid, feeds prisoners to ropers, and orders her troglodyte henchman, Ornn, to eat a charda colony's children if they do not cooperate with her. Driven solely by hate, Allevrah shows just how far even the best person can fall.
edited 22nd Mar '13 9:39:18 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Join the Hive; we have cookies
I haven't seen Ten Commandments
; how much of the prologue!Pharaoh's misdeeds are onscreen? For that matter, is the prologue!Pharaoh supposed to be the same guy as the one who's the villain later on, as there's been some debate about that. The Prince of Egypt
(which I have
seen), for instance, used as the irredeemable baby-drowning!Pharaoh Seti I
and as the more sympathetic plagued!Pharaoh Ramesses II
edited 22nd Mar '13 9:39:45 PM by HamburgerTime
goes the opposite route. Seti is totally sympathetic while Rameses is a whiny, unimpressive little bitch.
And in The Ten Commandments
, the prologue!pharaoh is Rameses I, father of Seti and grandfather of Rameses II.
Also, I wasn't asking if the prologue!pharaoh was a CM. What I'm asking is, in a movie where the plot is set in motion by a guy ordering the drowning of babies, would Baka's deeds be considered the most heinous?
Honestly, I use the test of "are they as bad as they can be in their role?" For Baka...I'd say yes.
Moo is a keeper. Cut Lilith.
Cut Masters of Horror unless someone cares to expand, same as the others.
Pathfinder examples? S Olid
People, PLEASE. When making changes in the CM page, please also change the corresponding YMMV page (and vice-versa).
@10536: From that I can see why people are tempted to keep him, but if that's all the description given I don't think it's enough to qualify him. Unless we get a flashback or ever see him try to kill a child, I don't think he should be included.
@10537: Tv Rulez Again Examples:
- Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom: Mola Ram is a keep, his cult is a cut.
- The Elder Scrolls: I only ever played Skyrim and bits of Oblivion, but from what I've read on the wiki Bal sounds like the most evil and sadistic Daedra Prince in the verse. The problem is most of his major atrocities are Offscreen Villainy. In the games themselves the crimes he does are fairly minor and petty. I'd say remove him for now but leave him open to future discussion, since apparently he's going to be the Big Bad of The Elder Scrolls MMORPG and will be trying to suck Mundus into his hell dimension.
- Monster Rancher:
- Moo: Sounds heinous enough but I have a question about his condition. Does he need to feed off hatred to survive or does he just do it for enjoyment/power? If the former, probably cut, if the latter, keep.
- Lilim: Well I wouldn't say he loyalty's a redeeming feature. The entry says her she'll betray whoever her boss is if someone stronger comes along. That being said, she doesn't sound as heinous as Moo. Cut.
- Masters Of Horror: Cut them all until someone can come here and explain them.
- The Talisman: Same as above for both examples.
- The Ten Commandments: Could you give a full rundown of Baka's crimes? It could be he's heinous enough just in a different way.
@10538: Both of those Pathfinder
entries look excellent.
edited 23rd Mar '13 4:56:08 PM by OccasionalExister
@Molag Bal: For those who don't know, Molag Bal is the Daedric Prince whose Sphere is the domination and enslavement of mortals. His Oblivion quest has you corrupting an atoner, and the Skyrim quest has you beat a priest of Boethiah (Who admittedly isn't exactly squeaky clean himself) to death with the not fully powered Mace of Molag Bal. At which point he revives him to make you bludgeon him to death once again.
This is after he forces you to kill the guy you broke into his shrine with because otherwise he'd kill you both.
In the Dawnguard DLC for Skyrim, he's also responsible for raping Serana and turning her into a vampire, though this is something you're told and not shown. Basically, he's some unholy combination of Satan and Darkseid. His name translated from Aldmeris literally means "[[Fire and Brimstone Hell
Fire Stone", and he lords over a Dark World
version of Tamriel known as Coldharbour.
However, since as Occasional Exister said pretty much all of Bal's crimes are things you're only told about via books, he wouldn't count as a CM using the current criteria.
edited 23rd Mar '13 5:36:50 PM by rmctagg09
Hugging a Vanilluxe
will give you frostbite.
It's typed rmctagg09
Here's my writeup of Apos now.
Also, we decided on Kanryu Takeda and Jin-E Udo from the film of Rurouni Kenshin and Ma-Ma Madrigal from Dredd ages ago...so doing those first.
- The RurouniKenshin movie has two examples
- Kanryu Takeda, a corrupt, sleazy businessman who enslaved a doctor to him to force her to make opium for him to profit on. Kanryu routinely has any 'obstacles' or rivals murdered by his psychotic employees and has no compunction poisoning a civilian well to take over the land nearby without caring about any death of destruction that would result.
- Jin-E Udo, Kanryu's Psycho for Hire gleefully handles his work with no hesitation or remorse. throughout the film, Jin-E butchers multiple people, guilty or innocent alike, and when Kanryu is defeated, he kidnaps Kenshin's Love Interest Kaoru to force Kenshin to become a killer again, using his powers of hypnosis on Kaoru to make her slowly suffocate. Even in defeat, Jin-E prefers death than living a life where he can never shed blood again.
- The Dredd film brings us Ma-Ma Madrigal, de facto ruler of The Peach Trees apartment complex. First introduced by having several people skinned alive, then thrown out a very long drop while given drugs to slow their perception of time. Ma-Ma has the Peach trees complex shut down to trap Dredd and his trainee inside and has no compunction opening fire into a crowd of civilians with a gattling gun to kill the two
- Apos from Mnemosyne, with his golden hair, crimson eyes, and beautiful features resembles an angel. The truth is markedly different. Apos is an immortal who finds amusement in suffering and agony. Apos hunts down female immortals and rapes and tortures them physically and mentally to consume their 'core' of immortality. The suffering improves the taste. Apos's obsesses over the heroine Rin Asogi and has his female subordinate Laura disguise herself as Rin to ruin Rin's name with a series of murders, and also satisfy his lust by raping her. At one point, he brutally crucifies and rapes Rin's best friend and lover Mimi simply because he was bored waiting for Rin's arrival. Apos is behind nearly every evil plot in the series and engineers a plot to turn the world against immortals and turn on itself by causing a nuclear explosion with an immortal seen as a survivor, before revealing the world tree Yggdrasil to the world to have humanity infected with the time fruits and become immortal so he cna harvest them at leisure. Apos betrays Laura and forces Rin to kill her old lover apos had turned into a carnivorous Angel in self defense, before personally executing her current lover (Apos's own father) and attempting to sacrifice Rin to Yggdrasil. When asked what he wants with the world, Apos's response is simple: I want to taste it!
edited 23rd Mar '13 6:00:04 PM by Lightysnake
Those entries look good to me, just have a view grammar points. The beginning of the second sentence in Jin-E's entry needs to be capitalized. There's also a redlink in Apos's entry that needs to be fixed, and in the third line from the bottom "can" is misspelled. Other than that they look awesome.
Also, didn't Ma-Ma rip out the eyes of one of her employees?
Uh didn't I already do the write ups to the Rurouni Kenshin movie dozens of pages back when I first put them up?
Sorry, mate, they must've been lost in the shuffle...I'll try to find them
Castlevania: Chronicles of Sorrow has two entries with very little context.
While I don't know anything about Dmitrii, having not seen Dawn, I CAN say that Graham does not exceed the standard villainy set by Dracula. All he does is stab Yoko, and nonfatally at that.
edited 23rd Mar '13 7:34:34 PM by Voyd211
So can you tell me what exactly does freedom mean, if I'm not free to be as twisted as I wanna be?