During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Isard, Palpatine sets the bar a bit too high.
to Isard. Though I have to say pretty impressive. If Palpatine hadn’t set the heinous standard so high she would have pretty much qualify
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
"Palpatine—when regular pure evil just isn't enough!"
Goku Black
Ysanne.
By the way since were on the subject of Kamen Rider baddies ill get an effort post on great leader of shocker together later on as I watched his scenes and reread his wiki and he definitely counts. Ill just focus on the main timeline version rather than the manga or novel versions.
Sorry though his write-up will be massive though probably one of the most massive on the site.
edited 17th Oct '17 2:42:39 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Allow me to play Devil's advocate: Palpatine has FAR more resources than Isard.
edited 17th Oct '17 12:55:16 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
Here's the effort-post I promised
What is the work?
The kamen rider franchise was started in 1971 by Shotaro Ishinomori. The main theme of this franchise is that someone has a great tragedy happen to him a by a sinister organisation only to rise up and use the technology of that organisation to defeat them.
Who is the villain and what has he done?
The great leader of shocker who serves as THE greater scope villain of the franchise (well one of two with neon uslsand from foundation x) is well the leader of the sinister organisation shocker.
We never find out what the great leader is as his origins despite confirmed to be the same guy outside alternate timelines like manga and novels is a continuity snarl. Depending on your information he was a Tibetan monk with mystical powers, alien, (retconned to be an evil spirit to make it fit beter) or a parasitic organism from a meteorite.
The great leader wants to rule the world and covert all of humanity into kajin( the MOTW) so it is united as one being( under him and him alone).
In the original series he had his subordinates ordered to kill Hongo and Ichimonji because they were an obstacle to his plans of conquest. It failed as his subordinates were defeated one by one ( including zol who we already have up) causing the organisation to start to falter. Since the organisation was nearing defeat he allied with commander black (he also might be worth a look) of geldam and created Gel-shocker.
Feeling the old members of shocker were kinda losers and he did not want them in his new organisation, he killed all of them one by one. The old bases were self-destructed and all surviving soldiers were slaughtered. After the riders defeated Gel-shocker along with Black. They confronted the main man himself in his headquarters and uncloaked him to reveal he is a cyclops of some kind. He activated the self-destruct in his HQ in a final desperate attempt to kill them only for it to be his undoing resulting in his death and them escaping before ending shocker.
However, it was later revealed the one they fought was just a body double and that he survived unscratched by escaping in the confusion of the explosion. He returned in kamen rider v3 under a new organisation he called Destron renaming himself the great leader of Destron. In the first episodes he led directly with a more hands of approach in attacking the city but later had his generals take over (which already has the qualified marshal armor one of the aforementioned generals) In the last episodes he would appear briefly to give orders and then leave. In the final episode he reveals his new One-Winged Angel form which is a living skeleton with a living heart and proclaimed himself the god of death and tries to kill them. He was destroyed by Kamen rider v3 in the final battle however it was revealed he actually somehow escaped again.
Returning again in Kamen Rider Stronger as the great leader of black satan, he also revelaed he helped create both the Government of darkness (main villains of Kamen rider x, basically a collation of opposing governments which came together secretly for plans on world domination by forcefully turning people into cyborgs under their control) and Geddon( main villains of kamen rider amazon, basically an organisation which wants conquest and the members kill people and feed on human blood). He may have been helped by emperor zero from the Garanda Empire (who does not count himself as he is a Benevolent Boss and likes his underlings compared to great leader who kills them all the time ) but we never find out the exact details of their partnership. He was defeated, only for it to be revealed as a stand in. He later comes back properly in this same series as the great leader of Delza army. Revealed in the final episodes as the true mastermind behind the Delza army in the final confrontation with the seven legendary riders, he reveals he was responsible for all the events of the first 7 series and takes on a giant rock form which is immune to their attacks. They go into his body, to discover that he is a giant brain thing that self-destructs in the hope of killing the people who have foiled him only for them to escape.
Later returning somehow in kamen rider skyrider, he took over Neo-shocker which was an organisation which believed humanity was doomed to go extinct unless the population was cut down by one-third. However he himself did not believe in these views as he shows a total disregard for humanity and human life as he just used the organisation as a cult, so his power would grow. Even being willing to destroy all of earth’s oxygen and making the planet a wasteland where humans are all gone just so he could beat the riders. This spelt his final defeat until coming back in 2015 but he has been retired for now, so no problem as it may be years before his next return.
Like ultron and other villains there is a world where he won due to time travel. In the movie OOO, Den-O, All riders; Let’s Go kamen riders he serves as main villain. During the 1970’s, while hunting a species called the Imagins, the aforementioned general black came across a cell medal which was dropped by Ankh during the time travel events and conflict of kamen rider OOO. Black gave the cell medal to his boss the Great leader who combined it with his shocker medal to create the powerful monster Shocker Greeed. Since it was able to defeat hongo and ichimonji it created a time travel paradox and a world where shocker reigns supreme. Various evil organisations that would have come up in the normal timeline after Shockers destruction, now swore allegiance to shocker and the Great leader. He also brainwashed hongo and ichimonji into becoming his loyal servants. OOO and den-o travelled back in time (as they were unaffected due to their powers) to stop this and put the timeline back in order. Unfornutely when they confronted him, he created the shocker greeed and it kicked there asses. Having failed to restore the timeline, they went back to the shocker ruled timeline to beat him there. Overwhelmed by monsters from nearly every series now under his control they were captured.
About to be publically executed, they are saved by hongo and ichimonji(one of there friends stayed behind in the 1970’s so that he could become a shocker scientist and make sure that the brainwashing was fake this time, so that when the time was the right, they could defeat him) and they use there powers to reach into the original timeline somehow to bring back every other rider to destroy the monster army. This time shocker greed is destroyed by the combined forces of everyone with the great leader now coming to fight them himself. He activates one of his true forms ( the rock giant one) and throws fireballs at them not caring that he killed all of the other leaders of his organisation in the process. They use kamen rider birth to help them summon all extra riders and finish him off for good.
The huge continuity problems created by this movie would be fixed in super hero taisen which turned everything back to normal for the next series.
Freudian Excuse?
Nothing absolutely nothing
Mitigating Factors?
He is not a well-intentioned extremist as he just wants the world under him and him alone even willing to kill the planet showing that he does not really give a damn about kajin or his own men either.
He treats his adopted son like crap and tried to put him in a pool of acid so he has no loved ones either.
He has wonky origins but kajin of all species have shown multiple times throughout the franchise they can be good, so no problem there either and it’s wonky to the point where I think agency can be assumed as nothing indicates he does not have it.
He's not a Generic Doomsday Villian as he shows an enjoyment of hurting people that those dont have, so no problem there.
Heinousness?
He is the heinousness of his work being a bad boss who killed all of his soldiers mutiple times, kidnapped people to experimemt on them and tried to end or take over the world multiple times. He also is the greater scope villain, so outside of foundation x which took over from him, he has his hands in everything.
Conclusion?
Easy keep
edited 17th Oct '17 7:32:56 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Great points on the heinous Standard (I mean, it's fucking palpatine he is arguably more evil than frieza), and the onscreen things are children being abducted and their families slaughtered, not to mention her having zero remorse for it, but I understand why she is a
I am the King!
To be fair, the Great Leader is the biggest CM in the Kamen Rider franchise, so ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
on him.
Goku Black
I know that. But he has been retired for now in favour of foundation x and neon uslsand.
@acw : his entry will go at the top of the kamen rider page under franchise wide as he came first and is the big bad of multiple series in the showa era as well as greater scope villain of all the rest of that particular era.
edited 17th Oct '17 5:21:22 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I've only watched the very first episode of the OG Kamen Rider, but I remember The Great Leader mocking Hongo after being made into... um, Kamen Rider. He goes on to give a dose of electricity that would have been lethal were he still human, all to test his durability. This is shown to be quite painful. Satisfied, the GL orders him brainwashed. Why he doesn't do that first, I dunno. I guess the brainwashing would be fatal for a normal human? Anyway, I bring this up because it establishes a pattern with just about every MOTW, from what I understand.
Anyway, all in all, The Great Leader.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Think i'll give a to the Great Leader.
Speaking of Kamen Rider Villains.....I wonder who are the Villains that are on Low tier on CM Chain In your opinion And Also.....A stupid question, is there Any a portrayal of Red Skull that isn't a CM In your opinion? :3
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Goku Black
As far as the low tier goes for Kamen Rider we have spider fangire, Go-jaraji-Da (porcupine gouroungi), aries zodiart, peacock undead, weather dopant and now legion phantom. Who are just MOTW's or really low tier in the grand scheme of there show but do some awful shit.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
everyone else looks fine.
Hopefully neon will become more active so we can list her as now she is so pragmatic that she does not dirty her hands. Meaning she does not do anything for this trope as its just her general's and we have prospect and kannangi listed because of that as they do independent evil shit.
edited 17th Oct '17 8:50:52 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Any of the Kamen Rider baddies that you think need a rewrite. And yeah, hopefully people will give their own opinion on The Great Leader of course
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Pretty easy to Incognito, Mv C!Ultron, and Great Leader. Not at all surprised to see the three of them clearing their respective works' heinous standards.
Great Leader
An inevitable to Isard for being nowhere NEAR as evil as Palpatine.
Isard
fanfic Palpatine, Ultron-Sigma and Great Leader
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Great Leader.
Possible issue with Aries:
- Pet the Dog: Bastard that he is, it's still worth mentioning that he doesn't back out of his arrangement with Ryusei. Mind you, it goes horribly wrong, but he did heal Jiro.
- Ryusei had to keep his end of the bargain first, so it really comes as a surprise that, Aries still goes along, when you'd actually expect someone like him to say something along the lines of I Lied.
edited 17th Oct '17 10:59:22 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
I explained that a few pages back when I rewrote him its not mitigating. It's too ambiguous in universe why he did it to be a cut as he could just be scared of jiro as well.
edited 17th Oct '17 11:09:23 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Hmm, a whim you might say? Maybe.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
So the Great Leader of Shocker finally gets an EP? I'll say yea.
A total has-been.
Late for this, but how did Lord Shen come up on this thread? I thought he was a villain agreed to not count due to a clear redeeming quality/Pet the Dog and being painted in a tragic light to the point where even Po was willing to not hold any grudge against him despite him killing his mother. (checks back) And it was monsterhunter going against the rules again. Should've figured.
Sigma Ultron and Incognito BTW.
edited 17th Oct '17 11:21:26 AM by ANewMan
