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Btw, a vital quote by Tolkien:

When discussing the orcs being bad, Tolkien states: "I nearly wrote ’irredeemably bad’; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God’s and ultimately good.)~Letter #153"

There's textual evidence that the orcs secretly hate their masters and miserable life they were forced into. But ultimately Tolkien seems to take the view that because they exist, they are part of Eru's world (AKA: God's) and thus have the chance at redemption like anything else.

edited 29th May '17 8:55:12 PM by Lightysnake

Slight for Murmuxmon, and firm for Gaia.

So is anyone else gonna vote on these two characters, or are we going to continue blatantly ignoring these effortposts?

Having weighed in a vote on Azog to both candidates

I can see Tolkien considering that, but he never actually put it into his official works. Eru accepted and blessed the dwarves made by Aule and the Ents made by Yavanna, but he never did the same to any of Morgoth's creations during any of his canon, published works. Thusly, we can't really assume they became part of the world.

edited 29th May '17 9:02:35 PM by LoreDeluxe

Not familiar with Cyborg 009 but having read your effortpost, to Gaia.

Dr. Gaia.

I have to second what Lore says above. Yeah, Tolkein talked a lot about his 'verse and things he considered doing in letters and unpublished material, but that would be like using a cutscene of a movie to qualify/disqualify a character and we don't do that.

edited 29th May '17 9:03:54 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

By the way...and this is actually why I'm currently lurking in this topic, I'll be honest...it's now past midnight here, which means it's been two weeks since the Agents OFSHIELD season 4 finale.

I guess we'll wait until Forenperser chimes in here, since he's called dibs on any potential effortposts?

Good morning everybody. It's May 30th, two weeks after this Season's finale, so now I can finally open the discussion on the fourth season of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.. There were some pretty nasty villains this season, but to put it short, I'll save you an extended write-up post, because nobody qualified. Let's look at it in detail:

• Lucy Bauer: The leader of the ghosts was the first Arc Villain to be encountered by the team this Season. Initially, she seemed like a good candidate, with her driving numerous people insane for seemingly no good reason and being hellbent on acquiring the Darkhold for selfish intentions. It is later however revealed that she got corrupted by the evil book and she was betrayed by her co-worker Eli Morrow, who tried to steal the power for himself and tried to murder all of his co-workers, which traped her into the non-corporeal, ghost-like state she is throughout the season, which was stated to be a pretty grim Fate Worse than Death. Also, despite all of her bad actions, she initially had good intentions, even after being corrupted by the Darkhold, and she also loved her husband, despite unwillingly causing his death later on
• Eli Morrow. While a Complete Monster in the comics and also displaying some heavy A God Am I delusions here, he is given a pretty sympathetic backstory in the show, having faced a lot of racism in he past, as the sole latino scientist among his co-workers, always being looked down upon and having to give thrice the effort to even be noticed. He also raised his two nephews and was genuinely horrified at having accidentally crippled one of them via a botched hit meant for Lucy's husband, even though he insists it was the Bauer's fault, not his. Finally, he too was corrupted by the Darkhold.
• Ellen Nadeer: Probably the greatest Hate Sink of this season, or even this show in general, maybe just short of Daniel Whitehall. Officially a law-abiding senator, who is very outspoken on the threats Inhumans cause and that the public should not be tolerant of them, she is secretly a benefactor to the terroristic Inhuman hate group Watchdogs, closely working together with them in order to frame the Inhumans for the attacks they cause. She later also blackmails S.H.I.E.L.D.'s new director Jeffrey Mace and later attempts to drag the entire organisation through the mud. Her most reprehensible action perhaps is how she guns down her own brother because of being an Inhuman, dropping his body into the ocean afterwards. While this also sounds like a solid qualifier, she too gains a humanizing Freudian Excuse: Her mother got killed during the Chitauri attack in 2012, on her own birthday. This traumatized her and caused her to gain an irrational hate and paranoia of anything alien. She was utterly convinced that the Inhuman outbreak was the next step of the alien invasion, with humanity being secretly infected to become like them. As for her murdering her brother, she didn't do it casually, in fact she was in tears and it was also part of a promise the two made each other after their mother's death. If one of them would ever become an Inhuman, the other one was indebted to kill him/her.
• Anton Ivanov: Ivanov, aka The Superior or just The Russian is the head of the aforementioned Watchdogs. He is directly accountable for all of their crimes, which include causing numerous blackouts throughout the globe, as well as rounding up lots of Inhumans and executing them (he direclty ordered Nadeer to shoot her borther). He also has a pretty sadistic streak, as he loves to personally tortured his captives, preferably with knives, as he did with Agent Billy Koenig and Jeffrey Mace. Numerous people, even on the villain's side, are appalled with his needlessly cruel methods. While he also read the Darkhold, it doesn't excuse any of his actions as he did most of these thingsbefore it. Why does he not qualify, you ask? Well, one of his main motivations is avenging his friends during his time as an SVR agent, who got indirectly killed by Coulson and May when they botched one of their missions. His father was also a poor man who worked his ass off as a miner, whom he deeply respected despite abusing him, until the day where he saw him kowtowing to a man who'd inherited his wealth, causing him to hate those whom he believed had gained power without earning it (this is why he hates Inhumans, refering to them as genetic cheaters).
• Holden Radcliffe: The most clear non-qualifier. First off, he got corrupted by the Darkhold (seeing a pattern yet?) and he also had some very good intentions. He wanted to use LMD's to protect their human counterparts and he also created the Framework, a virtual Alternate Reality, for people to live in without any sufferings. Sadly, even the best intentions can go way overboard. He realized that, however, in fact his moral restraints and possible future regrets were the reason Aida killed him. He also somewhat pulled a Heel–Face Turn in the end and had a woman he loved dearly, who sadly died.
• And now, last, but certainly not least AIDA. Howdy, what a great character, what a compelling villain. Horryfying and yet lovely, irredeemable in the end, but still so hopelessly tragic. At first, she was just Radcliffe's very first LMD, which grew steadily conscious. Originally she seemed to have the best interests of her SHIELD colleagues in mind, even self-lessly volunteering (as an Android)to read the Darkhold in order to bring back Coulson, Robbie Reyes and Fitz from the rift between dimensions Eli Morrow put them in. Sadly, as you can probably imagine by now, this has horrible consequences. Her consciousness gaining speeds up rapidly and her mainframe becomes just as corrupted by the dark book as Radcliffe's mind. She first helps him in his schemes, most notably keeping Agent May sedated and trapping her in the Framework as the very first. However, she soon grows wary of Radcliffe's actions, believing he might eventually regret them too much and thus kills him, locking his mind into the Framework. After trapping the minds of every main character in the Framework, she shows her perhaps most hideous side: Her avatar in the Framework takes on the moniker of Madame HYDRA (yes, THAT one). Under her rule, HYDRA establishes a fascist regime over the world, rounding up Inhumans to perform sadistic experiments on them, imprisoning or executing people if they even show the tiniest sign of dissident actions and, most horrifyingly, brainwash little kids into their loyal servants. What serves as a personal note of curelty here is the fact that she didn't do these things by herself, she manipulated the resident versions of May and Fitz into helping her with all this, which causes a lot of trauma and My God, What Have I Done? especially from the latter when they get out, as they remember every last atrocity commited by them, among them causing the death of their own boss Jeffrey Mace or killing Radcliffe's completely innocent love interest Agnes. The endgame to all of this is building herself a body made of flesh and bones and with all the powers of the Inhumans she had vivisected in the Framework, which she succeeds in. After this, she becomes overwhelmed by all her newly gained emotions, even having a Heel Realization. Sadly, it only lasts until Fitz, with whom she had fallen in love with already in the Framework, rejects her, turning her to turn completely crazy and then going on a bloody rampage, swearing to making everyone suffer for this. Her final downfall is perhaps best demonstrated in her relationship with Ivanov, who previously disgusted her for his needlessly cruel methods, but who then convinces her that causing people pain will make her feel good. However, even after this, Fitz still feels somewhat sorry for her, and when the Ghost Rider brutally burns Aida alive in hellfire, it is presented in a very Alas, Poor Villain way.

Bottomline to all this, the Darkhold was responsible for most of the villains downfall, and even the two who were evil on their own had just enough humanising traits to not qualifiy. So yeah, Second season in a row for Agents to have no candidate at all.

edited 5th Sep '17 12:42:11 AM by Forenperser

The issue there is they actually exist in the world itself, and by doing so have become part of the world itself. Orcs seem more inclined towards evil, especially with a Sauron or Morgoth, but Tolkien takes the stance they are not irredeemably evil.

Complicating it is the official origin in the Sil was compiled by Christopher Tolkien and not JRR, so the original LOTR is vague...and if we rely on that, even Frodo takes the view the orcs are not evil by nature after his captivity and torture in Cirith Ungol.

Clarifications from the writer on ambiguous issues are a different matter entirely.

No to anyone from SHIELD S4, indeed.

edited 29th May '17 9:07:05 PM by Lightysnake

Gaia

Murmuxmon for me. Not an uneffective villain by any means, but I feel the Digimon Monsters we already have and even some of the non-Monsters eclipse him in heinousness. He doesn't carry too much wide-scale or personal heinousness in what he does in the film.

And geez, I'm kind of surprised that Azog of all characters is igniting such a big discussion. The reason I downvoted him is, while he's no GDV, he still fails to stand out to me. Nothing he did in his backstory or on-screen in the movies struck me as being "truly heinous" at all. Nothing that shocked me, nothing that made me hate him, nothing that enthralled me with what a sick bastard he was - nothing. Smaug left more of an impact than him. Gollum left more of an impact than him. Freaking Thrandull left more of an impact than him. Azog, to me, embodied "standard villain" within this particular setting. In Middle Earth-based work, a villain has to carve a really special niche in their evildoing (like Lheu Brenin) in order to qualify in a setting where Ultimate Evil like Morgoth and Sauron exist.

edited 29th May '17 9:11:50 PM by ANewMan

Well, I'd say I've gotten enough and I already have the CM description for Gaia written out, so I guess I'll go post it.

edited 29th May '17 9:07:25 PM by ReddishGuy1

This is also a factor. All the rest aside, Azog just doesn't stand out to me. Like I said in a previous post, I always got the feeling that if the camera started following a different orc warlord they'd be just as bad.

edited 29th May '17 9:08:08 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

"i didn't feel this way" hasn't been a standard here and shouldn't be. The only thing to debate on Film!Azog is moral agency. He hits all the other points.

Azog is also unique in his genocidal hatred toward the dwarves and Durin's line. That is explicitly not the case with other Orcs.

edited 29th May '17 9:09:10 PM by Lightysnake

A debate on Azog? Interesting. While I can see all the points presented here, I think Ambar makes the most convincing one. While orcs may have some limitied choice just on how bad they can get, they never showed the capacity to really become good. So that's what seals the deal for me to on Azog as well.

Honestly, I have no real opinion on Azog one way or another, and I'm probably going to abstain, but I find this discussion on the moral agency of orcs fascinating. I've always been interested in Tolkien's changing thoughts on the subject (mainly because I've never liked Always Chaotic Evil as a trope).

That aside, can someone link the other effortposts that have been mentioned? I'm having a hard time finding them given how fast the orc discussion is moving.

The issue there is I've provided a direct quote from Tolkien himself expressly stating the very opposite.

@nrjxll: Murmuxmon here and Dr. Gaia here.

edited 29th May '17 9:13:28 PM by Tyk5919

to Murmuxmon and Gaia.

I'm open to the idea that orcs can be redeemed but that doesn't mean that Azog is a CM. There is inconclusive evidence that that's possible, but he still isn't necessarily portrayed as worse or less redeemable than the rest of his kind. He gets more focus but nothing shows he makes a moral choice. Evil is clearly the "default" state of orcs and if one could change it wouldn't necessarily indicate that they always had moral agency because that would be such a unique situation.

Excellent post, Forenperser. I did sort of think that Ivanov and AIDA's actions in the finale were pretty horrific—essentially, they wanted to create a world where HYDRA wins and Inhumans are persecuted; Ivanov due to being an Absolute Xenophobe, and AIDA simply as revenge on the world for Fitz rejecting her. This is Dystopia Justifies the Means, and even on the Sliding Scale of Antagonist Vileness it says this:

• Complete Monster
  • With few exceptions, any serious villain that believes Dystopia Justifies the Means or To Create a Playground for Evil.

Perhaps this is indeed one of those few exceptions.

edited 29th May '17 9:17:30 PM by speyeker

But if he has agency, doesn't that change the situation? What we see in the films is that Azog is not just a generic orc. He's an orc other orcs are terrified of, and with a grudge firmly unique to him.

We have a number of C Ms from usually evil races...Ambar proposed Murmandamus,a Pantavian serpent-man from the Riftwar series and Gorthor Beastlord from Warhammer, both being from races with a normal 'evil' default setting. I did the rewrite for Kukulcan of Dresden Files, who's a member of the defaulty evil Red Court....Ghandalf also proposed Calidus from the Faithful and the Fallen series, who is an excellent example of an evil race who goes well beyond his fellows.

I get this objection, but Azog isn't just an orc general following Sauron's orders. He's shown to buck Sauron's commands and argue with him, putting his own needs and desires first. Furthermore, he's driven by a grudge that began well before Sauron started rising again. This is QUITE unique.

edited 29th May '17 9:20:13 PM by Lightysnake

Will say 'Yes' to Murmuxmon and Gaia, and you know what? Same to Azog The arguments for him are much more swaying to me than the arguments against.

And yup, no one from SHIELD S4 counts, despite having SO many great villains. AIDA, man. Probably THE best female villain in a live-action comic-book story ever. Not exactly a PLETHORA of competition, but STILL.

edited 29th May '17 9:21:06 PM by Ravok

I think one of Season 4's main themes was that even the worst of the worst people can have someone to care about. And it did it in a believable way.

edited 29th May '17 9:20:48 PM by Forenperser

Well from my perspective, orc agency is still pretty murky. Redemption may be theoretically possible, but their nature is so inclined towards evil that it would be a real achievement. And I still don't think his actual actions are beyond standard villainy for an orc. He didn't cross any lines an orc wouldn't cross. Nothing really makes him bad even for an orc, he just has more individuality.

I'm not really arguing the Azog isn't heinous enough or that he isn't bad by orc standads, he is both of those things. I'm arguing that Azog is inherently evil and can never choose to be good because he is an orc. Of course, a major factor with Azog is that he gets such extensive characterization, unlike pretty much any other orc which is treated as just cannon fodder.