Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

RE: Awesome Kid 42

Zarbon also assisted in destroying Planets with Frieza. Just like Validar, he'd count on his own, but compared to Frieza, he doesn't meet the heinous bar set by his boss.

Validar attempted to revive his Draconic master and failed. Manfroy and Gharnef did the same thing with more success. While Grima succeeded in the sacrificing the people on the table.

Gangrel hating Ylisse is fanon due to the past war is complete Fanon. His motiveRant says he wants the whole continent to suffer, Plegia included, just because of having a rough time growing up in the slums. Gangrel's website backstory and Supports make zero mention of the past war. Also the past war was to destroy the Grimleal, who Gangrel stats he doesn't care for in his supports. Gangrel outright says in his supports, he was only after power even at the game's beginning.

The Grimleal were assisting Validar out of loyalty to Grima himself, just as they've always done.

John Bordinay is a rare package deal with his boss. Are you suggesting Validar be grouped with Grima's entry?

Validar was only able to attempt the ritual because Grima revived him, so Grima completely outdid Validar there as well.

We've already discussed "no personal attacks." Discuss the candidate.

All of Validar's ancestors also wanted Grima to be revived, its why Validar's father produced him in the first place, to sacrifice his son's body for Grima's use.

As said on the first page:

A Complete Monster is the most heinous villain by the standard of the story

In Awakening, alone, Validar failed to match up to Grima's heinousness, even before Grima reclaimed his power.

On the same post,

Validar's actions are eclipsed by all those I mentioned.

edited 20th Feb '17 9:56:29 PM by Monsund

I'm about to sleep, so I'll just tackle three of your points and get to the rest tomorrow.

Your Zarbon comparison doesn't work because unlike Validar, he never tried to make Freeza cause the actions in the first place.

The Gangrel thing being fanon is flat out false. He says that to Emmeryn in the chapter he kidnaps Marribelle, and Emmeryn confirms it to have happened.

What you're saying with John Bordinay is just you dancing around the issue. Him being packaged with his boss doesn't change the fact that he qualified despite all his actions just listening to his boss

Please stop this discussion if you're not going to actually address the points and just make stuff up.

And Validar attempted to make it possible for Grima to even cause those actions because he was planning on reviving him, my entire point.

Fair enough about the Freudian Excuse bit, but saying it's Fanon when Gangrel and Emmeryn both acknowledge it's occurence is false.

And yet all of Bordinay's actions were done because he was told to do it, just like with Validar.

This isn't personal attacks. It's pointing out why I find your logic to be flawed. There's a difference.

Anyway, I'm done discussing this. It's repetitive and frustrating.

edited 21st Feb '17 7:52:02 AM by Awesomekid42

Grima was trying to destroy the world long before Validar.

Gangrel taunts Emmeryn about it, and tries to bring it up to get support from the Grimleal, but he never was motivated by the past war. He just wanted power as he said himself. His Motive Rant, expanded on the Japanese website, even said he wants the whole continent to suffer. His actual Freudian Excuse was his mother dying to bandits and being mocked by other Plegians. Gangrel was never motivated by the war, it was just something he was trying to use to his advantage.

Gangrel wiki

The official post on heinousness in the rules.

Per those rules, Validar fails to meet the standard set by Grima and others.

Looking at John Bordinay, he shares all his actions with his boss. Grima does much more without Validar.

I've already asked you, please stop the personal attacks, discuss the candidate.

EDIT:

I've already said, I don't like this style of response. Make a new post instead.

What did Validar accomplish for Grima, the only thing he did was recruit Aversa, and give ships to Chrom.

Bordinay accomplished stuff with his boss, Validar was dead when Grima did his actions. Unlike Bordinay, Validar accomplished little of Grima's commands, he failed at assassinating Emmeryn, and doing the ritual.

I never said the war was Fanon, but Gangrel being personally affected by the war or wanting revenge for it is fanon.

You've directly attacked my credibility multiple times instead of discussing the candidate. Those are personal attacks.

And yet, you never pointed out how Validar rivals any of the aforementioned character in heinousness, or does anything unique. Validar is the Numida to Grima's Lekain, he may be entirely evil, but he falls flat compared to his superior.

edited 21st Feb '17 1:35:13 PM by Monsund

Ok this has been going on a bit too long I think...

Alright, just dragged myself through the second Validar war and quite honestly, I support keeping him since, like the last time this happened, the argument to cut him doesn't convince me.

HOWEVER, I've thought about buying and playing Fire Emblem Awakening sometime soon so I wouldn't be opposed to reviewing Validar as I play and report back (Assuming I'm not too late and this hasn't blown over by then) and see where I stand on him if it helps.

Hell, even if Validar is settled before then, I wouldn't be opposed to keeping an eye on Grima and effortposting him if I feel he escapes GDV territory. Would anyone mind if I did so?

I think GDV needs to be more defined, as it is it seems like you need to be a total blank slate like DC's Doomsday to qualify.

But I have been collecting Grima's quotes. He definitely does a lot of personal mocking of characters.

Sure, go for it.

Perfectly fine with me. Again, I'd need to do a bit of research and refresh my memory of Grima to compose something of the sort... if you want to take the proposal, by all means, go ahead.

I still stand GDV is in desperate need of a cleanup thread.

Now then, I've been PM'd the quotes and reading them over... I think Grima actually displays just enough in the way of character to potentially count.

edited 20th Feb '17 10:22:14 PM by Scraggle

I've been planning another Awakening playthrough, so I can also provide opinions on Grima in the future.

I only played like, one FE game, so I'll wait for the effortpost.

On another note, the back and forth is kind of getting annoying. Also, please do not compared series to another. All that matters is their own universe for things like heinousness, etc. Obviously the way the universe is presented is relevant too. Some can't legitimately have a CM due to things like everybody is too heinous, the world is incapable of true evil, etc.

Aage and Sekto

Aage Krueger and Sekto

I'l no expert on Fire Emblem (despite my current avatar), I'm leaning toward keep Validar. I do however agree that tropers misuse Eldritch Abomination a lot and that it doesn't apply to Grima.

edited 21st Feb '17 5:05:12 AM by Silverblade2

Sekto.

Geez, I feel bad for that effort post getting buried.

I actually beat Stranger's Wrath last and can confirm: He's a big prick. I was gonna propose him myself, but put him off because I wasn't visiting this thread and then I honestly forgot until now. And despite Oddworld being rather silly, he's definitely played seriously, even with that dumb voice.

I only really have two reservations on him:

The Glukkons are slightly worse, but there are numerous of these bastards about. From what is shown to us, Sekto did just about everything himself, building an empire from scratch. Considering his resources... Dayum. Pass.

And the other... like, how much does one's race in Oddworld affect their actions? Like, are Glukkons dicks just because they're Glukkons? This isn't something I think's been massively elaborated on by the Luscious Illustrious Limitless Lorne Lanning. Still, Sekto's the only one of his species we see, and his apparent grudge doesn't justify his other actions or sheer cruelty or ruthlessness. Hell, I'd argue it doesn't justify his actions towards the Steefs in the first place. So, I'm gonna put this second issue on the back burner for now.

Aage and Sekto.

Anyways, let's get this effort-post on Justice League Dark out of the way.

Who Is He?

Destiny is the Big Bad of the movie. In contrast to his comic counterpart, this incarnation is portrayed as a medieval sorcerer, and an ancient foe of Jason Blood.

What Has He Done?

Once a man of science, Destiny became obsessed with obtaining power, and, using black magic and his own soul, forged the "Dreamstone", a magical artifact that caused its victims to live their worst nightmares, driving them into a murderous and chaotic state, while Destiny fed off their negative energy.

Eventually, Destiny led a raid on the home village of Jason Blood, then a knight, burning the village to the ground. Jason and his army attempted to stop him, but Destiny effortlessly wiped out Jason's army before driving a sword through his chest. However, he was finally defeated by Etrigan the demon, who separated him from the Dreamstone, allowing Merlin to obliterate Destiny, seemingly ending the threat. After his death, Jason was merged with Etrigan, and the Dreamstone came into the possession of John Constantine.

In truth, though, Destiny's spirit remained within a fragment of the Dreamstone, plotting his return. 500 years later, the Dreamstone fragment was discovered by Constantine's elderly friend, Ritchie Simpson, who was dying of a magical illness. Destiny's spirit spoke to Ritchie, promising him immortality if he would help Destiny find the other piece of the Dreamstone.

Under Destiny's influence, Ritchie began spreading the Dreamstone's influence around the world, leading to an influx of murders across the globe by people affected by the stone's power. Among these string of crimes shown include a woman running over numerous people with her car, a man who kills his neighbors and nearly kills his wife and children, only stopped by Superman, and a woman who almost tosses her baby off a building before committing suicide. And these are happening on a global scale.

Investigating the murders, the Justice League Dark (Batman, Constantine, Zatanna, and Deadman) try to search the mind of one of the Dreamstone's victims. However, Destiny summons a demon made of literal human feces, which goes on a rampage through the hospital, killing numerous people, including the Dreamstone's victim.

To keep the League off their trail, Ritchie frames the sorcerer Felix Faust for an attack on him, causing the group to attack Faust at his abode. Meanwhile, Ritchie takes the opportunity to retrieve the other piece of the Dreamstone and merge it, recreating the stone. This allows Destiny to return to physical form, possessing Ritchie's body and destroying Constantine's house before setting off to conquer the world.

Attacking the nearest city, Destiny uses his magic to plunge the city into chaos, resulting in a section of it being destroyed and many people being injured or killed. Even the Justice League is affected, as they turn on Batman and attempt to kill him. When Swamp Thing attempts to stop Destiny, he forcibly extracts Swamp Thing's human corpse from his body, killing him.

The Justice League Dark attempt to stop Destiny, but he proves too powerful. During the battle, he separates Jason Blood from Etrigan, fatally injuring him. However, Destiny is eventually defeated when Deadman briefly possesses him, allowing a dying Jason Blood to remove the Dreamstone from Destiny's chest, destroying Destiny for good. However, Jason dies of his wounds.

Redeeming traits and other mitigating factors?

He has zero redeeming traits. Destiny simply believes himself to be a god who is superior to all mortals, and while it is mentioned that he had gone insane, it's not to a degree that he has no agency.

Heinous standard?

He matches it. Destiny causes some of the most widespread killings as shown in the DC Animated New 52, and has one of, if not the highest onscreen body count in the series, aside from I think Trigon and Darkseid.

Final Verdict?

I see no reason not to keep him.

edited 21st Feb '17 8:23:53 AM by Clown-Face

Destiny

I watched the film and I give Destiny

Destiny is indeed a keeper.

Destiny

The argument against Validar seems to be that he's subservient to a villain who would have done all the things he did anyway even without Validar as a presence. I don't think that's a sufficient enough disqualifier. Otherwise Unalaq, Joker, and Dark Bakura oughtn't have qualified.

edited 21st Feb '17 8:14:26 AM by ANewMan

Destiny.

Destiny

"Destiny summons a demon made of literal human feces..."
Ew.
Destiny.

I'm going to have to vote no on Sekto. The problem with Oddworld is that pretty much all the antagonistic races are driven by corporate greed and exploiting the environment. The Glukkons, a race of Always Chaotic Evil Corrupt Corporate Executives, subject their Mudokon workers to harsh treatment, and when they drove animals to extinction by selling them as meat, they were pleased with Molluck's idea to sell their Mudokon workers as a new source of food. They also make their Soulstorm Brew from Mudokon bones and tears, and use the addictive side-effects of the drink to get Mudokuns hooked on it so they can be used as slave labor. The Vykkers are a race of Mad Scientists with every member reportedly enjoying causing pain and vivisection. They use their knowledge to produce pharmaceuticals and cosmetics, and their experiments have nearly driven the Fuzzle and Gabbit (of which, Munch is the last until the ending) species to extinction. According to the wiki, being a self-serving industrialist is also the hat of the Oktigi (Sekto's race). So even if Sekto's the only Oktigi seen, he's not especially heinous by the standards of his whole race, or the other Oddworld villainous races.

Sekto but Destiny

edited 21st Feb '17 9:11:37 AM by emperors

For people asking for more info about Aage - the big problem is that the work was never completed and probably never will be, so apart from the stuff described in detail there's a lot of innuendo about him planning to do horrible things in the near future that can't be made any more concrete.

Destiny

Given new info, Sekto