During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Yeah, I'd say Pride is in desperate need of a rewrite and the one offered services him fine. So yes, extra material is needed in this case; we can justify a rewrite.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
That was indeed the case with Suicide Squad.
edited 2nd Dec '16 2:42:05 PM by Scraggle
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to the Betrayer and Benatu Eshu
You know with all these expanded rewrites for Full metal Alchemist I'm beginning to wonder about Father's position in all of this. I know we dismissed him for having to much Blue-and-Orange Morality but have we ever had a full effort post on the guy?
edited 2nd Dec '16 3:00:34 PM by G-Editor
A total has-been.
@Tyk and Austin: The newest Pokemon Big Bad was deemed eligible for discussion today, even if it's unanimous that they don't make the cut for the trope. I don't think there ought to be any hostility and trying to shut down anyone giving their two cents on the candidate.
Lizzid people!
I'm not trying to be hostile; I just feel that the answer was obvious so I didn't think there would be that much to discuss. I am not reprimanding anyone; if I am, I apologize for it.
The Unknown Unknown
So, the Sun and Moon villain (whoever the person is) doesn't count? That's good to hear.
And so the hunt for a main series CM continues. Though, to be frank, I'm actually interested in Game Freak keeping this up, having villains getting more and more creative with their goals without totally going over the edge. As it's been said before, not everything needs a CM.
edited 2nd Dec '16 4:05:32 PM by erazor0707
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Hey guys with all this talk on the main villain of Sun & Moon being one of the most evil Tragic Villains ever, I looked the Tragic Villain page to see if some C Ms were squandering there and I found these.
The Lion King has Scar, who, while arguably an utter sociopath, is this way because he was called "Taka" by his parents, which translates to "trash", or "dirt", and the fact that Mufasa gets to be what was his goal all along. Being king of pride rock.
World Of Warcraft: Another villain who was reintroduced in the Cataclysm is the dragon aspect Neltharion the Earthwarder, one of the five dragons created by the titans to protect Azeroth from the Old Gods' corruption. Unfortunately, while he was in a 1000 year rest, the Old Gods managed to whisper to him, driving Neltharion mad and causing him to devastate the other dragonflights and gain a new name for himself: Deathwing the Destroyer.
You want me to cuts these pronto?
edited 2nd Dec '16 4:19:54 PM by G-Editor
Even considering that, the Walking Spoiler villain was under More than Mind Control. It'd be like blaming someone fully for something they did while heavily intoxicated-they aren't in their right state of mind
Doesn't even like this username
I don't think Scar's origin story is even canon anymore (it's apparently from one of the Kopa books, and he's been replaced in canon with Kiara and Kion), and even so I think that entry's really reaching (jealousy and a sucky name = tragic?), so cut that.
With Deathwing I barely even know what's canon and not anymore, but there's usually been a tragic aspect to his backstory. WoWPedia states that "Neltharion silently chafed at what he felt was a burden that had been inflicted on him; though he could command the entire weight of Azeroth itself, that same weight constantly pressed on his body every waking moment, the load making him feel suffocated to the point that he felt his very spirit unravelling", "The realization that the Titans viewed Azeroth as an experiment only fueled his bitterness", and "During his conversation with Thrall he admitted that he served the Old Gods largely because he believed that they would free him from this burden", but that part of his page doesn't have a citation so I can't say how much of that is actually genuine.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
I'd prefer input from other posters, too.
edited 2nd Dec '16 4:43:58 PM by LordXavius
So you want me to cut Scar, but keep Deathwing?
Okay
edited 2nd Dec '16 5:31:34 PM by G-Editor
Deathwing is NOT a tragic villain. Not remotely.
Lizzid people!
I have this one candidate that I am unsure of, but here goes nothing. The film in question is a 1976 horror/science fiction film entitled God Told Me To. God Told Me To, or God Told Me To Kill, or Demon, concerns a NYPD detective investigating a series of murders that are plaguing New York. What is especially bizarre is that with each murder, the murderer claims that it was God's will.
Who is he?
OK, so this is kind of weird; Bernard Phillips was essentially a human/alien hybrid that was conceived through an immaculate conception of sorts. While walking on the beach one night, Miss Philips was abducted by aliens, and was artificially inseminated by an orb of light. His exact sexuality agenda was unknown, but Phillips decided to refer to him as male. Bernard had developed the ability to brainwash people into doing whatever he desires. He develops a cult around himself in which he brainwashes his followers into doing his will.
Bernard becomes interested with Peter Nicholas, a Catholic NYPD detective, as he could sense that he had similar powers to him. He intends on mating with Nicholas so that a new species could replace humanity.
What has he done?
In the beginning of the film, a sniper began to randomly shoot bystanders from the roof of the water tower; he ends up massacring fifteen people before he is confronted by Nicholas. He identifies himself as Howard Gorman, and claims that God told him to commit these murders. He then commits suicide by jumping off the water tower. Nicholas, becoming traumatized by the incident, pondered on how he was able to have perfect aim at that distance, since he had a mail order rifle.
Sometime later, more murders are committed by the followers of Bernard. A man, who was simply reading a magazine, suddenly heads to the store, and starts to stab people to death. When he was placed into the hospital, he claimed that God told him to do it before succumbing to his injuries. A father massacres his entire family, and seems blissfully unaware of the seriousness of the situation, which causes Nicholas to angrily attack him. While New York City Police Department was trying to figure out what the next move would be, they receive a call from a businessman named Logan, who was also one of Bernard's followers. Going against his master's demands, he attempts to warn them by saying that five people would be killed during the St. Patrick's Day Parade. The NYPD arrive to the parade, wherein one of the officers began to shoot at people before being taken down.
During a meeting among Bernard's followers, they are given the task of convincing Nicholas to join their group. While attempting to indoctrinate him, Peter inquires one of the members about Phillips' origins. Without any warning, the member is overcome by a sudden sickness, and he dies, presumably by Bernard's doing. Nicholas later does some snooping around, and he realizes that he was actually conceived through a virgin birth, much like Bernard. His mother was abducted and artificially inseminated, and once he was born, he was placed under adoption. In an attempt of making up for betraying Phillips, Logan tries to push Peter in the way of an incoming train, but he fails.
Peter forces Logan to take him to where his master was. Logan reluctantly takes him to an abandoned building, and commits suicide by sticking his head out of the elevator. Nicholas meets Bernard, who appears to be afraid of him. Disproving his claims that Nicholas was immune to his control, Bernard tries to coerce Peter into putting his hand into the furnace. The furnace explodes, thus giving Bernard enough time to escape. In a final confrontation between the two alien/human hybrids, Bernard tries to convince Nicholas into impregnating him, but Peter refuses. Seeing that Bernard had never felt pain before, the two get into a scuffle which leads to the building crashing down. Bernard is killed by the falling debris, but as for Nicholas he is arrested for murder. When asked about why he did this, he simply states that "God told him to."
Mitigating factors? Freudian Excuse?
Bernard views his followers as expendable by having them go out and slaughter innocents, and doesn't even bat an eye if they happened to kill themselves afterwards, or if they were driven insane. An argument can be made that he also uses telekinesis to dispose of his members. The scene in which one of his henchmen suddenly dies of illness could be marked as him inciting that illness within him. As for Nicholas, he doesn't care about him as a person; he only sees him as being essential for creating a new race. Additionally, he doesn't ever mention his birth mother once.
Heinous standard
Big Bad, sets it. As for other antagonists, there was a thug who murdered one of Nicholas' co-workers, who was also conspiring with him in secrecy, but he doesn't do anything particularly heinous.
Conclusion
Again, I'm neutral on this one. It was a really weird film.
edited 2nd Dec '16 6:05:07 PM by AustinDR
Even though South Park is on the "Never Again" list, I actually think the current season may have a character with a shot at qualifying, because he's not really played for laughs and they've done away with negative continuity in recent years. I'm not gonna make any formal proposals yet (the season isn't even over), just saying that the show has undergone a bit of a Tone Shift in recent years which could possibly necessitate re-evaluation.
edited 2nd Dec '16 6:00:54 PM by rosewood47
I'm actually surprised we list Deathwing, honestly - I feel like there's a real moral agency issue there.
Scar certainly isn't a tragic villain, though, especially if it's relying on some obscure secondary source.
Deathwing was corrupted. His mind was not forcibly hijacked, he was not 'twisted'' in that sense. He was always harboring that bitterness inside him and N'Zoth ended up swaying him into the darkness as a result, and turned it from a seed into...well, Deathwing. But you can say the same about Kil'Jaeden and Gul'dan.
But what follows is entirely of his volition. He's a genocidal, rapist psychopath and he flew into that with both eyes open. It helps that a number of books list things from his POV and he's not a tortured, tragic victim at all.
Yes to Bernard, btw.
Wild Child
Bernard.
I'm indifferent on Bernard, honestly. Sounds like a pretty bizarre film.
I'm not strongly inclined to contest this - but I'd note that the Old Gods' influence has (generally speaking, this being Blizzard) been portrayed as having a supernatural, subconscious element to it that goes beyond mere normal persuasion or manipulation; voices in your head instead of just a conscious Deal with the Devil.
Lizzid people!
It's at the very least not as bizarre as a mad scientist attempting to destroy humanity by causing women to give birth to dinosaurs.
The day a South Park character is upvoted will surely be one to celebrate.
Bernard. Reminds me of Mamiya.
The Unknown
@Pokémon
There is (apparently) a lot of misinformation being thrown around about Lusamine and she might have had total moral agency over her actions. There's currently a discussion about going on in the Sun and Moon thread where it was pointed out that it was never confirmed she was infected with the neurotoxin. Regardless, I'm not sure if she can qualify because she's clearly a Tragic Villain.
Pertinent discussion link. Has S/M spoilers.
edited 2nd Dec '16 9:46:11 PM by Karxrida
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
Moral agency or not, Lusamine's a non-qualifier.
A total has-been.
The issue is that a lot of things about her character would make little to no sense if she wasn't under More than Mind Control from the neurotoxins and had her sanity and moral agency seriously impaired. Someone with a clear head doesn't just drop their original motivation in favor of falling in love with the "beauty" of Eldritch Abominations for no reason, and also doesn't suddenly wake up and say "when did you become so beautiful?" to the daughter they spent entire scenes verbally tearing down, calling ugly, and claiming they didn't need anymore. Also, Lusamine not being under the influence of close contact with Nihilego renders that whole scene with Guzma and the multiple Nihilegos meaningless to the narrative.
And that discussion mostly seems to question whether or not the entirety of the Aether Foundation was acting while intoxicated by Nihilego, which I didn't think was ever really in question. I thought it was clear they were always following their president's orders, and only Lusamine was suffering from the toxin's effects that whole time, and yes, it started years before the games' story began.
edited 2nd Dec '16 9:56:11 PM by ANewMan
I feel comfortable giving a yea to Bernard.
RIP Toriyama
Alright, playing catch-up...
Having recently binged through Vixen myself, I'm comfortable giving Eshu a 'Yes'. Also 'Yes' to Bernard, despite the...odd nature of the film, it sounds like.
Gonna go with the majority and say 'No' to the Sun and Moon baddie. I honestly have personally found that the constant attempts to make darn-near all the villains of the Pokémon games well-intentioned or sympathetic to be quite annoying, actually. And no, I'm not saying this because Pokémon "needs" a CM or anything, I just find that making 9 out of 10 of every freaking villain some sort of tragic or misguided character to be REALLY grating in any media.
I love a good sympathetic or well-meaning villain (With [[Series/Daredevil Wilson Fisk]] being one of my favorite villains for this very reason), but when you make 90% of the villains with that "structure"? It gets real boring, real fast. No one wants a franchise's villains to be comprised of 90% irredeemable pricks (CMs), ergo, I don't particular care for a game series whose villains are 90% "tragic" or WIEs.
No idea where THAT rant came from, just always felt that way about the Pokémon games. Sue me.
- Control by Andy Diggle and Angela Cruickshank: Randolph Wolfe is the CEO of Wolfe Media, a media giant that Wolfe personally uses to gain blackmail on powerful people around the globe, who he then forces to bend to his will and make himself more powerful. When one of Wolfe's hackers plans to turn him over to the authorities, Wolfe hires a sociopathic hitman to kill him and anyone else who may threaten his empire, leading to the deaths of more than half-a-dozen people over the course of just a few days; Eliminating loose ends or those who outlive their usefulness in this manner is noted to be a regular occurence for Wolfe. Though at first seemingly just a corrupt man taking advantage of other rich inndividuals, Wolfe's true monstrosity comes into play near the end of the story, where it is revealed that he regular hosts "rape parties", events where he lures unsuspecting women, or simply rents them from trafficking organizations, to parties where he has his wealthy guestds gang rape them to their hearts' content, secretly filming the entire ordeals to use as evermore blackmail against his "guests". A corrupt sociopath whose greed dragged dozens of innocents into living nightmares and even death, Randolph Wolfe disgusted and repulsed everyone whom he interacted with, having no concern for anyone but himself and his personal power.
edited 2nd Dec '16 11:01:44 PM by Ravok
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Hell, I'm quite certain Scraggle never effort-posted Suicide Squad, but we still gave![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
or ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]")
symbols on that.
edited 2nd Dec '16 2:17:01 PM by Awesomekid42