Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Yes on Marmoo.

Good to see general agreement on Maurisk. I wasn't sure myself about him until I was about halfway through the effort post; that was when I realized how many potential redeeming traits he had. In any case, provided Book 5 comes out on time next year, I'll reserve discussion of The Beast and we'll see if it manages to outheinous Maurisk.

Marmoo sounds like he just crosses the line at the end of the series.

edited 16th Sep '16 7:54:01 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Maurisk, Marmoo

to Lord Marmoo.

Got to make a note of this, its not every day you get a evil cannibalistic scorpion imperialist and Evil Overlord.

Marmoo

Exactly. That's kinda what drew me to the series. It's incredibly rare to find forms of anthropomorphism that focuses almost entirely on frogs, let alone spiders and scorpions. It didn't hurt that they got Keith David to voice Marmoo either.

Hey, just a heads up: issues outside of my control are going to keep me from doing any Ace Attorney writeups on the Spirit of Justice discussion date. I'm either gonna have to post my effortposts right this second, or let someone else pick up the torch for next week. If anyone wants to do so, then they have my blessing.

It's cool. I don't mind doing it now.

I might just end up doing it now, but I'd rather wait for a few more opinions. That being said, I might not be ABLE to wait considering my circumstances.

edited 16th Sep '16 10:18:15 AM by FriedWarthog

I'm fine with doing it now. I expect the first candidate to be all but a formality, based on what you told me
Hey, sweet, I'm a "prominent forumgoer"

edited 16th Sep '16 11:10:41 AM by ACW

Ah fuck it, I'm gonna put up my effortposts since at least two prominent forumgoers agree. I honest to god promise that I'm not being impatient: but after today I won't be able to get internet access for at least a few weeks and at most a few months due to moving away.

Anyway, since it's a mystery game (And someone requested it of me, and I want to respect their wishes!) I will be discussing everything about potential candidates entirely under spoiler tags. And I suggest anyone talking about the game in response to do so as well, again out of respect for those who don't want to be spoiled.

But anywho: it's time to discuss if anyone counts. My answer?

Absolutely, positively yes. There are two total candidates I want to discuss, one who I am positive counts, and one... I am not so sure on. But anyway, time to commence the spoiler tags, because there are major, MAJOR spoilers ahead! I should also note that if anyone is voted up, either someone else is gonna have to handle the writeup, or I will once I return in several weeks or months or so.

What's the work?

Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney - Spirit of Justice, the sixth game in the main Ace Attorney series and the tenth overall when you count both Investigations games, the Japan-exclusive Dai Gyakuten Saiban, and the crossover with Professor Layton. The game takes place mainly in the Kingdom of Khura'in as well as back in the states depending on the case, but Khura'in is the bigger focus. Basically, ace attorney Phoenix Wright takes a flight to visit the kingdom of Khura'in in order to visit his old friend Maya Fey, who is visiting the country for her spirit medium training. While he visits however, Phoenix's tour guide, a nine year old boy named Ahlbi Ur'gaid is accused of murder and treason. And when he rushes to the courthouse, Phoenix realizes that Khura'in's legal system is downright toxic: the kingdom's princess Rayfa Padma Khura'in presides over the trials by performing a seance that shows the last moments of a victim's life, and the witness is tried on the spot without a chance to defend themselves. You see, after the former queen of Khura'in Amara was murdered by a defense attorney named Dhurke Sahdmadhi, The new royal family passed a law called the Defense Culpability Act, which forces anyone who supports those accused of a crime to suffer the same fate as the accused: so if you are a defense attorney defending someone accused of murder, you AND your client will be executed. This not only led to the deaths of many, but surviving lawyers have pretty much abandoned legal practice and those accused of a crime are basically hopeless, which leads to Phoenix doing the impossible: defending Ahlbi in court in an attempt to combat Khura'in's corrupt legal system, which leads to him and his apprentice Apollo Justice getting swept up in a revolution caused by the Defiant Dragons rebel group which is headed by Dhurke, who was framed for Amara's murder.

Now unsurprisingly, one of the villains I'm proposing is one of Khura'in's government officials, the queen herself: Ga'ran Sigatar Khura'in, as well as a minor villain by the name of Roger Retinz. Ga'ran is without a doubt the nastiest villain yet, and Roger's loathsome as well (Though admittedly I don't think he counts, but that's up for you all to decide). But I'll cover each effortpost separately. First, Ga'ran's.

Who is Ga'ran?

Ga'ran Sigatar Khura'in is the current queen of Khura'in, and at first glance she appears to be surprisingly benevolent on the surface: she's soft-spoken as opposed to her aggressive and brash husband Minister Inga, seems to be convinced that the awful DC Act is for the good of the people, and wants Dhurke's head on a platter for murdering her sister Amara. Overall, she comes off as a stern, yet wise and gentle authority figure despite the state of the legal system and the civil unrest brewing in Khura'in.

However as the game goes on, it becomes clearer that Ga'ran is NOT as nice as she seems, slowly showing harsher and less than scrupulous traits until the final trial in the game. And in the courtroom, she ditches her queenly robes in favor of a costume seemingly lifted from a Final Fantasy villain's wardrobe, and shows exactly what a horrifically evil, sociopathic, nasty piece of work she truly is.

What has she done?

Hoo boy.

In a vein similar to Morgan Fey, Ga'ran is the violently jealous spiritual power-lacking sister of a woman who has them: Amara, the peaceful and gentle-hearted former queen of Khura'in. Since the queen of Khura'in has to be a woman who possesses spiritual powers so she can communicate with the dead, Ga'ran was passed over for the throne, and she didn't like this. Not. One. Bit. Instead, she became a prosecutor and later on the kingdom's Minister of Justice, but still harbored a lust for the throne. In order to seize her sister's power, she set a fire at Amara's residence where Apollo's musician father Jove Justice was performing.

She beat Jove over the head and left him and his infant son Apollo to die in the blaze for being at the wrong place at the wrong time, seemingly killed Amara, and pinned her supposed murder on Amara's loving husband Dhurke Sahdmadhi. She trashed Dhurke in an unfair trial, leading him to go into hiding with his biological son Nahyuta and his now-adopted son Apollo (Who survived the fire). And of course, this led to her passing the DC Act (I don't remember if it was ever specified if she or her husband Justice Minister Inga was the law's creator, but she still approved and enforces it either way), and thus began Ga'ran's regime where she controlled the population with an iron fist and caused the deaths of an untold amount of defense attorneys and innocent people unable to prove their innocence. With this law in place, Ga'ran could rule unopposed and used her influence to brainwash her subjects into viewing lawyers as the scum of the Earth.

Now Amara wasn't killed in the fire... but Ga'ran manipulated her into going into hiding by making her think that assassins were after her and that it would be safer if she ruled in her stead. While she kept Amara alive, she only did so so she could force her to channel spirits for her when needed, as to keep up the whole "Legitimate Queen" shtick. However, Amara was rescued by Dhurke and she learned about Ga'ran's manipulations, but she was still forced to cater to Ga'ran's whims due to blackmail. You see, aside from Nahyuta, Amara and Dhurke had another child together, a girl named Rayfa. Due to lacking an heir, Ga'ran reared up Rayfa as her own child and lied to her about her heritage, and while doing so she kept Amara in line by threatening to reveal Rayfa's true parentage to the public. What makes this heinous is that Khura'in culture very much believes that "The sins of the father will visit the child", and having a supposed murderer and terrorist like Dhurke for a father would ruin her reputation and life. And yes, this means that Ga'ran is willing to use her own niece/foster daughter as a blackmailing tool, and it's not just Amara she does this to, but also to Rayfa's big brother Nahyuta, a noble-hearted prosecutor who is blackmailed into serving as a Ga'ran regime puppet.

Now for most of the game she has a more passive role while her husband Inga is more involved and at first seems like he'll be the game's big villain. But during the second half of the final case, he's murdered by being stabbed in the back and Dhurke is thought to be responsible. It turns out however that Ga'ran was the one who murdered him, due to him planning a coup that would result in her death while he would reign supreme in Khura'in. And while Apollo is trying to find evidence that could prove Dhurke's innocence, Ga'ran learns that he's on the scent and sends her elite guards after him and his partner Athena Cykes, undoubtedly wanting them killed before they get their day in court. And before Dhurke's trial commences, his ever-growing pack of supporters start a riot, leading her to not just wanting Apollo, Phoenix, Dhurke, and his Defiant Dragons to be executed, but for everyone who showed support for Dhurke to be executed along with him under the DC Act. That is a LOT of people, around the hundreds at least.

And during Dhurke's trial, Ga'ran bullies the intended prosecutor Nahyuta into stepping aside and letting her handle things. What results is Ga'ran giving Manfred von Karma a run for his money in the Amoral Attorney department: she taunts Apollo and Phoenix about their impending deaths multiple times in a creepily sadistic manner, bullies and emotionally abuses Rayfa, rewrites the law itself during the trial multiple times for her benefit, and comes dangerously close to pulling rank and shutting the whole thing down, only prevented from doing so because she misses being able to flex her muscles in court. But things take a turn for the worse when Amara comes out of hiding to take the stand: the way the trial shapes up, it appears that Amara is Inga's murderer, and Ga'ran is more than happy to throw her to the wolves and face execution. And when Apollo points out that she couldn't have been the killer, Ga'ran has one of her men shoot and almost kill Amara before she can out Ga'ran as Inga's murderer.

When court reconvenes, Ga'ran forces Nahyuta to face execution and claim to have murdered Inga on threat of revealing Rayfa's lineage. But like with Amara, Apollo is able to prove Nahyuta's innocence and that Ga'ran is Inga's killer, and the day seems won... until Ga'ran reveals a horrifying truth: under the Defense Culpability Act, Nahyuta would be executed due to abetting a criminal: Ga'ran herself. She then writes in a new law that states that ANYONE who stands in her way would be killed on the spot, and has her elite guards storm the courtroom and hold Apollo, Phoenix, and Nahyuta at gunpoint. This leads to one hell of a Sadistic Choice: Apollo doesn't back down which would lead to him, Phoenix, and Nahyuta being publicly gunned down, or they can back off, let Ga'ran go free, and allow Nahyuta to be executed. Through some quick thinking however, Apollo is able to prove that Ga'ran is not a legitimate queen and forces her into a corner by making her prove that she can channel the Holy Mother, Khura'in's founder. When she's unable to do so, her guards turn on her, and she loses her mind after failing to channel the Holy Mother which leads her to believe that she's the founder herself. The lunatic is carted off, Dhurke and Nahyuta's names are cleared, and everyone lives happily ever after. Yay! :D

Is she heinous by the standards of the story?

Oh YES. She easily outstrips just about everyone not just in the game but the series (Except for MAYBE Manfred, depending on how many innocent people he got sentenced to death over his 40 year perfect win streak) in bodycount. Countless lives were lost to her oppressive regime and the unfair DC Act, and she was fully intending on carrying out a mass execution of people who supported Dhurke, left an infant to die in a fire, and psychologically tortures Amara's family.

The only person she really has competition with is her husband Inga, who is every bit as repulsive as she is. He shares culpability with the lives ruined and lost to the DC Act, was planning to murder his wife in a coup, and he also tried to use his Secret Police to murder Defiant Dragons and their supporters. Oh, and he murdered the likable Dhurke too, so that's extra scumbag points to him. Unlike Ga'ran however, Inga has SOME humanity in him: he genuinely loves his niece/adopted daughter Rayfa to the point of keeping a letter of hers wishing him a happy birthday from when she was eight in a safe, with that safe's code being her birthday. And according to Rayfa herself, he was kind and gentle towards her showing that unlike his heartless wife, Inga DID want to be a good parent.

Does she have any redeeming qualities or a valid Freudian Excuse?

Yeaaaaaaah, no. Absolutely not. Ga'ran is a textbook example of a sociopathic dictator who thinks nothing of having her family members murdered or blackmailed into doing as she says, treats her niece like shit, views anyone who could potentially pose a threat to her as the enemy, and has killed countless people due to her tyrannical regime. And before anyone asks, there was no real love between Ga'ran and Inga: Phoenix himself points out how weirdly non-chalant Ga'ran is about her husband's death before it's made clear that she's the killer.

As far as a Freudian Excuse goes, it's also inadequate. Being envious of your sister and coveting her power is one thing, but replacing her by framing her husband for her "murder" while keeping her in line by using her daughter as a blackmailing tool and using the power obtained as a way to stomp on your subjects while making sure your rule can't be challenged is another. The ONLY crime she has any justification for is killing Inga since he was trying to kill her himself (albeit, she caught him alone and straight-up murdered him before he could try), but that's it.

Final Thoughts

I swear, the Ace Attorney series really seems to like upping the ante with its villains. It seems like each and every major baddie becomes worse and worse as the series goes on, and Ga'ran makes just about everyone look small time. Hell, forget about the whole "responsible for ruining/taking hundreds, if not thousands of lives with her corrupt regime" thing, her attempted infanticide alone puts her above just about any villain in the series. Any time that it appears that she may have a decent quality to her name, she proceeds to smash it to the ground and render it null and void, and she shows a disturbing amount of sociopathy once her true colors show in court. She's like a horrifying mix of Morgan Fey and Manfred von Karma with any and all subtlety tossed into the trash and her evilness cranked up to eleven. She dethroned (tee hee) Dahlia Hawthorne as Ace Attorney's reigning queen of evil and is an easy keeper if I've ever seen one.

Who is Roger Retinz?

Roger Retinz is a disgraced former magician, but now is a sleazy, obnoxious, and charismatic TV producer who specializes in trashy reality TV and bears an uncanny resemblance to Robert Downey Jr. You see, in the past he wasn't just a magician: he was a member of Troupe Gramarye: a troupe of famous and influential magicians headed by the late, great Magnifi Gramarye, and he specialized in coin and fire tricks. He was a part of the troupe in its early days, but was ousted when he tried to perform after being injured in an accident despite Magnifi telling him not to do so. Roger's pride took a SERIOUS blow, and over the years he's been nursing a violent grudge against the Troupe, long even after it was disbanded after the death of Magnifi, Zak Gramarye going into hiding (and dying later), Valant being arrested, and Thalassa supposedly dying. But now that Magnifi's granddaughter and heir 17 year old Trucy Wright is running the show, Roger decides to jump at the chance at completely defiling Magnifi's legacy once and for all and sets things up where he will be producing Trucy's new show: Trucy in Gramarye Land, which is meant to be sort of "Gramarye reunion" with Mr. Reus joining the Troupe once more! And predictably, things take a turn for the worse pretty fast.

What Has He Done?

Before the show started, Roger had Trucy sign a rather innocuous sheet of paper that unbeknownst to her, was fitted on a trick clipboard that would allow Roger to copy her signature thanks to some special paper housed in the clipboard. He used this to copy her signature onto a piece of evidence tying her to a murder later on, and also used it on a contract that would charge her a ridiculous amount of money should she be responsible for Trucy in Gramaryeland not being able to air.

Now in order to get his revenge against the Gramaryes underway, he roped in the twin magicians Bonny and Betty de Famme, as well as a fanboy of his by the name of Manov Mistree and made them help in what they all thought was a simple prank video: they were going to trick Trucy into thinking that she accidentally killed Manov/the fake Mr. Reus during the show, only for him to come to life and reveal that "It's just a prank, bro! You're on TV!" But that was a front for Roger setting up Manov to die by being impaled by a real sword situated where he'd be pulled up via harness, and then using some chaos he had Betty engineer so he could frame Trucy for Manov's death. And what makes Manov's death really sickening is that he was a diehard fan of Roger's, and yet had his life thrown away so Roger could get his petty revenge.

And what results is nothing less than one of the most downright sickening smear campaigns I've seen in fiction: Roger uses the power of social media to make Trucy look like a murderer before his fake evidence pointing to her "actions" as deliberate murder surfaces, causing the nation to turn against her and call for the death of a seventeen year old girl, and it gets even worse when he calls in a crowd of hecklers just to help emotionally destroy her further. And just to be an even bigger dick, Roger uses the contract he tricked Trucy into signing as a way to foreclose on the Wright Anything Agency, which would destroy the livelihoods of Phoenix Wright, Apollo Justice, and Athena Cykes while smugly gloating to Apollo that there's jack shit he can do about it. And when Apollo and Athena take the case, Roger also goes on to make sure that they're both slandered and ridiculed alongside Trucy. But after a long trial where Apollo is able to force Roger to reveal himself as the real Mr. Reus and prove that he murdered Manov, what follows is a cool breakdown where Roger imagines himself burning effigies of the former members of Troupe Gramarye, before being mocked by effigies resembling him while he's blinded by tons of spotlights. Trucy's reputation is salvaged, the Wright Anything Agency is saved, and Roger is arrested. Yay! But Roger walks away, cold and smug about how in the end, he got his revenge on Troupe Gramarye. Boo...

Is he heinous by the standards of the story?

This is why I don't believe that he counts: he's a VERY effective Hate Sink, and a bastard of the highest order. He's definitely one of the most hateable killers in the series and comes off as more revolting than the killers of Cases 1, 3, 4, and the first killer in Case 5. (All of them have one victim and don't count for a variety of reasons: Ahndistan'dhin from Case 1 is a standard first villain, Beh'leeb killed Case 3's victim in self defense, Geiru from Case 4 killed her father over a misunderstanding and regretted it later, and Paul Atishon from the first half of Case 5 is just a pompous slimeball).

However, I don't think that he really sticks out that much when it comes to other villains. I'm not going to compare him to Ga'ran and Inga since they far outstrip him in resources (TV Producer against the dictators in charge of an entire country!), but I feel he doesn't make the cut when stacked up to the likes of Matt Engarde, Manfred von Karma, Dahlia Hawthorne, and all the rest. When you line up all the deeds on his wrap sheet, you have: murdered a dedicated fan of his, manipulated a set of twins into acting as unknowing accomplices, framed a seventeen year old girl for his murder, started a brutal smear campaign against her and her lawyers, tried to drive Phoenix Wright and co. into debt and out of business, tricked Trucy into signing a contract that enabled the charging of ridiculous amounts of money and foreclosure of her home... a nasty rapsheet, but ultimately one that pales before just about every other candidate. Plus, there IS the fact that his body count is just one guy (albeit a fan of his who he threw away to damage Trucy's reputation).

Now I've heard him be compared to the likes of Redd White and Matt Engarde, both of whom also only directly murdered one person but made up for it a slew of nasty crimes, but Roger's Jerkass actions don't really stack up with Redd's blackmail and suicides or Matt's laundry list of crimes that include kidnapping, starvation, driving a woman to suicide, blackmailing Phoenix into helping him walk on threat of murdering Maya, trying to blackmail a loyal assassin, and pinning his murder on a suicidal woman. I feel that he isn't heinous enough in the grand scheme of things.

Any redeeming qualities or a valid Freudian Excuse?

Well, there's the fact that Roger's willingness to ruin Troupe Gramarye's name stems from being humiliated and ousted from Troupe Gramarye by Magnifi Gramarye. It's kinda understandable that he'd be peeved because Magnifi (and honestly, every non-Trucy member of Troupe Gramarye to varying degrees) is a jerk.

However, it doesn't stack up with his actions: Roger is ultimately a very skilled magician in his own right, and could have most certainly made a name for himself in the world of stage magicians. Troupe Gramarye fell after Magnifi's death thanks to the circumstances affecting its other members, meaning that Roger could have very well jumped in to fill the Gramarye-less void (Before quitting, the last remaining active Troupe Gramyre member Valant could only score small-time gigs). And plus, he IS a famous TV producer who makes it a point to show up in his productions, meaning that he already has the fame he craves. And hell, he even has a fanboy in the form of Manov Mistree who he callously murders so he can pin it on Trucy. At this point in his life, he's just a petty, hateful little man who is unhealthily obsessed with getting revenge on a long dead man.

And not only does he lack a meaningful Freudian Excuse, he has no redeeming qualities: he likes to turn up the sleaze and charm when he can, but he's ultimately a royal douchebag to just about everyone he meets: he's known to be a jerk to his staff and uses people like pawns he can cast aside. He pretends to be in love with Betty de Famme but was only manipulating her into serving as an unwitting accomplice to Manov's murder. Plus, there's the fact that Manov, as I keep saying, was a fan of his, yet he killed him just to throw Trucy under the bus for it.

Final Thoughts?

Roger is a nasty, nasty guy, and a douchebag of the highest order without anything resembling so much as one redeeming quality. But I personally believe that he doesn't hit the mark of Complete Monster due to heinousness issues. I could be wrong and can see why some may disagree, but I'm not confident in him counting.

to the first (even without the infanticide attempt, there's still tying to kill at least hundreds). VERY slight Roger (seems on par with Engarde).

Easy, easy yes to Ga'ran. I'm probably going to say no to Roger, though, bastard they might be.

Ga'ran.

To the second villain. I'm still on case 5 so I'm not reading about the first one though.

In that note...there is a villain I'd like to do a full EP on...along with another Big Bad and his dragon...not for a full proposal but to bring everyone up to speed and to add to the evil deeds later. Anyone mind if I roll on that?

to ga'ran and to roger

edited 16th Sep '16 11:07:32 AM by snakeky-man

Go for it.

Sure, go for it.

edited 16th Sep '16 11:08:18 AM by Awesomekid42

Oh, and Lighty, thanks for getting me into Promised Neverland. I can't wait to find out what happens next.

edited 16th Sep '16 11:20:14 AM by ACW

to Ga'ran. I can be convinced either way on Roger Retinz, though. I hate this guy more than any other character in the franchise, but I can't discern if this hate is due to Hate Sink or Complete Monster.

As for Retinz's heinousness, his main competition is Ga'ran and her husband (who does NOT count due to heavily implied redeeming factors), but I'm not sure we can compare them due to Retinz being only a TV producer/magician compared to royalty, with Ga'ran in particular being able to rewrite the laws and thus having more resources.

Personally, this comes down to whether or not Retinz's focused revenge on Trucy and her friends and the extremes he goes to (killing his successor, using other magicians in his plot, etc.) is enough to rival certain other villains whose scope is larger, but less personal.

In short, I'm open to more arguments on the latter, but I was sold on the former pretty soon after I was finished.

edited 16th Sep '16 11:27:06 AM by finalsurvivor1

Effortpost itself stated that we weren't supposed to be directly comparing the two candidates due to the massive differences in resources... moreso how they stack up to characters like Engarde and Redd.

Ah, got it. I have a bit of an issue with reading long stuff, so that's why I rarely post here. Sorry.

Anyway, in that case, if we have those two up, I'll give Retinz a . Murdering his disciple, manipulating and keeping his "accomplices" in the dark, all to ruin a teen girl's life simply for inheriting magic...I think that's good enough if we have Engarde and White. Similar scale on a more personal level.

edited 16th Sep '16 11:47:24 AM by finalsurvivor1

Ga'ran

Roger

Y'know, I may need to play the Ace Attorney games sometime. I'm not a gamer, but they sound fun.

They're primarily more visual novels than games, so you don't really have to worry if you're not much of a gamer.