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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#66351: Aug 23rd 2016 at 12:24:40 PM

Actually, here's my first try at LokSat. If there's anything that needs to be corrected, just let me know. Anything I didn't get wrong, tell me what it actually is. Help me along too if necessary.

  • LokSat, real name Mason Wood, is the Big Bad of the eighth and final season and the Greater-Scope Villain of the series in general. A corrupt government agent, it is revealed in the two-part season premiere XY/XX that he was William Bracken’s silent partner, providing him with the assassins and hitmen he used throughout the series and took part in helping to cover up their crimes as well as Bracken’s. When Beckett and her team begin looking into finding him, he has the whole team except Beckett and Vikram Singh killed in a car accident. He sends assassins after both Beckett and Vikram later on to silence them both. When Bracken is questioned by both Castle and Beckett on him, LokSat has him brutally murdered in prison. He also frames a CIA agent as a patsy, has her killed and staged as a suicide to close the investigation into him. When Beckett is seemingly able to persuade Caleb Brown to turn on him, in the series finale Crossfire LokSat has his enforcer Mr. Flynn brutally burn an unknown man to death in order to fake Caleb’s death, only sparing Caleb because he’s still useful. He emotionally manipulates and potentially harms Castle’s stepmother for information. He has Flynn abduct Castle and subject him to an extremely potent truth serum, during which he reveals himself as Mason to Castle and then asks one by one about who else knows about the investigation (including Castle's family), stating his intention to have them all eliminated. He later attempts to ambush Beckett and tries to throw her into an incinerator. When he’s captured, he seems to send Caleb out of spite to shoot and try to kill Castle and Beckett in their own apartment. Representing the darkest elements of the series, LokSat is most notable as the most dangerous threat the characters have ever faced.

I tried not to leave anything out and be thorough, but be as to the point and brief as possible too. I was gonna wait until I'd revisited the season, but I figured I'd give it a shot today. He probably should have had a more detailed effort post to begin with. You know, at the time that Crossfire aired, not only was I sick, but my grandfather died about three days later.

edited 23rd Aug '16 12:39:36 PM by futuremoviewriter

erazor0707 The Unknown Unknown from The Infinitude of Meh Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
The Unknown Unknown
#66352: Aug 23rd 2016 at 1:34:39 PM

Anyone reserved discussion for RWBY: Volume 4? I'd like to.

A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
Karxrida The Unknown from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
The Unknown
#66354: Aug 23rd 2016 at 1:44:40 PM

That's like two months away, and we don't know how long it will last before we can make any sufficient judgment calls on new characters. There's a good chance we will have to wait until it's finished before we can discuss anything.

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#66355: Aug 23rd 2016 at 1:46:28 PM

[up] That's why discussion reserving exists; lack of new information or not it's perfectly fine for someone to reserve the right to talk about a given series when said information comes up.

You're looking out for Salem in particular, right Lighty?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#66356: Aug 23rd 2016 at 1:51:47 PM

Not to mention the leaders of the White Fang and more on Cinder.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#66357: Aug 23rd 2016 at 1:52:42 PM

Would somebody mind telling me if they think it's ready for the drafts page or not?

erazor0707 The Unknown Unknown from The Infinitude of Meh Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
The Unknown Unknown
#66358: Aug 23rd 2016 at 2:13:54 PM

I'm interested in what Adam is going to do. I can see him counting if he jumps off the slope some more.

A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
ACW Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#66359: Aug 23rd 2016 at 3:15:28 PM

FMV: You can add it to the Drafts page. I'll play around with it a bit and see if I can trim some without cutting some of the necessities.

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
LordYAM Since: Jan, 2015
#66360: Aug 23rd 2016 at 3:23:24 PM

So what about Arianna Ortega?

To Recap:

Crimes:

Spends years mentally fucking with a guy she seduced partially because the Conquistadors (despite being assholes) broke the Red Courts power and forced them hide in the shadows. When he dies she's more upset at the loss of face. Orchestrates the massacre of Maggie Dresden's foster family (we're treated to the details secondhand), tries to sacrifice Maggie (failing only because Harry made a brief alliance with her father to face her and kill her), WOULD have if Harry hadn't ended her life, works to ensure a massive sacrifice of hundreds of people just to start a magic attack that will kill two people, openly admits that she sees it as "business", and launches a bio attack on the Wizard HQ.

Heinous Factor:

The Blood Curse (hundreds of people dying) is pretty high by the series standards; Her mental torture of Paolo is incredibly cruel mental manipulation. Unlike other villains she sees it as business. The only time she's enjoying herself is when she and Harry are fighting. She's also got an ego the size of a planet in some ways. At the same time, her father may well be a bigger monster. He's the one who laid out the red court system (which involves millennia of torture, murder, slavery of women men and kids) and ran the central and south american continents into the ground so they could use it as their playground. It's also implied that the "Blood Junkie" routine is an act, meaning he knowingly orchestrated all that misery for his own gratification. So she may fall short compared to her dad. She's up there with Nicodemus, Shagnasty and maybe Lord Raith

Mitigating factors: She admits she loved her father and wants to kick him out because she thinks his time is done (he's putting on the facade of blood crazed junkie.) In Proven guilty her trying to buy harry on eBay is treated as funny. Otherwise nothing. The death of Paolo and Bianca are implied to be more about loss of face, and she openly despised Paolo. Despite loving her dad she has no problems trying to overthrow him.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#66361: Aug 23rd 2016 at 3:51:06 PM

Is my Ewell rewrite good?

@Lighty: Alrighty then, new, truncated proposal from Bloodwine.

Who's the candidate?

Carmilla, a Romanian vampire who's spreading vampirism to the States.

What does she do?

Carmilla sells a mysterious brandy that causes vampirism to Andrea, intending for her to drink it. However, the drink was intended for Andrea's best friend Brandy, transforming her into a vampire. During the transformation, Brandy accidentally breaks the bottle.

Carmilla eventually comes to see Andrea, and learns of the mistake. She prepares to bite Andrea (which will kill her), but she's interrupted and vanishes.

Brandy ends up going on a vampiric rampage that ends up killing a nurse, Alpha Bitch, Beta Bitch and a Jerkass professor. She then confronts Andrea, which leads to her demise.

Andrea proceeds to go to Europe, and kills Carmilla. However, The Stinger reveals that Andrea didn't destroy all the wine, and also reveals that the wine-selling is apparently a regular occurrence.

Heinousness?

As the Big Bad, she's the worst character. However, I don't think causing more vampires to exist and one direct attempted murder breaches absolute heinousness.

Mitigating factors?

Nope. She isn't super well characterized, but she's shown to be kind of a Manipulative Bastard.

Verdict?

[tdown]. The only reason I'm bringing her up is that Lighty was interested.

ACW Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#66362: Aug 23rd 2016 at 3:58:16 PM

[up] What's different with the Ewell rewrite?

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#66363: Aug 23rd 2016 at 4:00:25 PM

[up] I condensed it and removed unnecessary spoiler tags.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#66365: Aug 23rd 2016 at 5:37:10 PM

@ACW FMW. I will in a bit, but I need someone who's seen the show too to help validate everything in the write up. Have you seen it?

edited 25th Aug '16 11:11:43 AM by futuremoviewriter

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#66366: Aug 23rd 2016 at 5:57:49 PM

[tup] for Mr. Smith and [tdown] to Sydney.

Hey I have another interesting question, how do we judge really narmy works, like cartoons from the 80s. I am asking because there was an episode of Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends, where Red Skull tried to start WW3 (by stealing some old Nazi rockets firing them at the US and hoping that the US will blame another country, likely the USSR) and plans to take over after the world has been devastated by a war. He also openly admired Hitler (he even says "I will be the next Hitler", that episode didn't air in Germany). That cartoon is pretty narmy, but Red Skull seemed pretty serious (its hard to make a villain who admires Hitler funny in a kids cartoon).

edited 23rd Aug '16 6:20:30 PM by Overlord

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#66367: Aug 23rd 2016 at 6:06:52 PM

[up] Well, we have a candidate from Manos: The Hands of Fate, if that tells you anything.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#66368: Aug 23rd 2016 at 6:11:55 PM

I'd say err on the side of caution and don't propose anyone from that show.

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#66369: Aug 23rd 2016 at 6:22:44 PM

[up]That.

On Arianna Ortega, I stand by the previously advanced argument here that she doesn't entirely measure up in terms of the heinousness standard.

edited 23rd Aug '16 6:23:40 PM by nrjxll

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#66370: Aug 23rd 2016 at 6:24:07 PM

My latest edit:

  • LokSat, real name Mason Wood, is the Big Bad of the eighth and final season and the Greater-Scope Villain of the series in general. A corrupt government agent, it is revealed in the two-part season premiere "XY"/"XX"that he was William Bracken’s silent partner, providing him with the assassins and hitmen he used throughout the series and took part in helping to cover up their crimes as well as Bracken’s. When Beckett and her team begin looking into finding him, he has four members of Beckett's team killed in a car accident and the fifth one stabbed in a nightclub. He sends assassins after both Beckett and Vikram Singh later on to silence them both. When Bracken is questioned by Beckett and later Castle on him, LokSat has him brutally murdered in prison. He also frames the investigating CIA agent as a patsy, has her killed and staged as a suicide to close the investigation into him. When Beckett is seemingly able to persuade Caleb Brown to turn on him, in the series finale "Crossfire" LokSat has his enforcer Mr. Flynn brutally burn an unknown man to death in order to fake Caleb’s death, only sparing Caleb because he’s still useful. He emotionally manipulates and potentially harms Castle’s stepmother for information. He has Flynn abduct Castle and subject him to an extremely potent truth serum, during which he reveals himself as Mason to Castle and then asks one by one about who else knows about the investigation (including Castle's family), stating his intention to have them all eliminated. He later attempts to ambush Beckett and tries to throw her into an incinerator. When he’s captured, he seems to send Caleb out of spite to shoot and try to kill Castle and Beckett in their own apartment. Representing the darkest elements of the series, LokSat is most notable as the most dangerous threat the characters have ever faced.

edited 25th Aug '16 9:24:41 AM by futuremoviewriter

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#66371: Aug 23rd 2016 at 6:40:24 PM

Like, in all honesty?

Spider Man and His amazing Friends? A silly comedy one? Do we really need to discuss it? Don't we have enough Red Skulls on the list?

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#66373: Aug 23rd 2016 at 7:31:12 PM

[up][up] I was simply asking a question about suitable settings and asking whether certain settings were too narmy to count, that was the point, rather then trying to propose that version of Red Skull.

Also no offense, but I think sometimes people are willing to getting to get annoyed at other people for rather small mistakes, like some people jumping down other people's throats for making a mistake during their proposals, asking why they made those mistakes in the first place. I think this thread would be better if people were a bit more forgiving, this thread is supposed to be fun. I think it stifles people's willingness to make proposals, if people are going to get upset when someone makes a mistake.

I am not trying to start anything, but I do think this thread has become somewhat less fun recently and I think could use a little more civility and understanding, I'm not trying to single out anyone either, but it is a trend I noticed and frankly it makes coming here less enjoyable.

edited 23rd Aug '16 7:35:53 PM by Overlord

Irene Siiiiiiiiiiiip from Digital World Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: The Skitty to my Wailord
Siiiiiiiiiiiip
#66374: Aug 23rd 2016 at 7:42:39 PM

The thread isn't supposed to be "fun". It's a cleanup thread.

However, I do agree that the civility has been rather low on this thread and it's very clear that users are afraid to propose stuff without being attacked. That's not healthy and seriously needs to end.

...It's weird having so many websites and no way to properly display now, lol.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#66375: Aug 23rd 2016 at 7:43:22 PM

Well, your point is taken. Will try to ease up a bit then.

But I think a series that's normally a whacky comedy, would generally not be one conducive to discussion.


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