During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Lizzid people!
Some anti-heroes have a reason for being on the wiki, though. Really Judge Dredd or the Punisher are only the heroes because the villains are worse than they are.
No I'm not arguing against examples like Kratos, The Punisher and Judge Dredd. I'm perfectly OK with those being on the wiki. But Angel Bunny? Sunset Shimmer? Lightning Dust? Discord? Who has reformed and while he's a bit of a pick, he's hardly anything like what he was before. If a character is a Jerk with a Heart of Gold, I think they should be excluded. It's like committing someone to a mental institution for being different.
Funny story though. My android got the "brilliant" idea to autocorrect Judge Dredd to Judge Fred.
edited 5th May '15 10:26:41 PM by Klavice
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
- Judge Fred
![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]")
- You think Villains Wiki is bad, there's one site that's even worse (not sure if I can name it here). It basically copies word for word from here, but also has natter, walls of text, disqualified examples, and the like.
- Lighty, PM or footnote it; what happened w/ Joa?
edited 5th May '15 11:37:28 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Lizzid people!
That's All The Tropes you're thinking about, ACW. Really, the Villains Wiki isn't bad, most of the users just kind of ignore the definition on what a CM is.
@ Camberf: Actually, I have noticed that whenever we decide that a character qualifies as a CM and add it to our sight's CM lists, the Villains Wiki immediately adds their own "Complete Monster" category to their page for that same villain as well, if they have one for that villain. A similar thing is done with this blog run by a man named Eric, whenever we decide a character qualifies, he adds them to his sight as well (even though his Complete Monster listing opens up by INSULTING our sight for being too strict with this trope, which makes him look like a hypocrite) I don't know if we should feel flattered, or view these people as brown nosing suck ups. No, I don't mean to insult these people, just state my wondering as to what we should feel. Actually, I learned of Otoya from the Villains Wiki when I was browsing their XM category, so I have them to thank for being able to bring her to this thread. Strangely, Villains wiki has not gotten rid of Hopper or Syndrome despite us deciding they did not count.
jjj
The last thing I care about is starting shit with some other wiki.
Lizzid people!
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
39192: Yes it is. Wasn't sure if I was allowed to mention it by name. But yeah, they copy, but then have bad examples, walls of text, WAY too many spoilers...it's a mess.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I don't see why the Villains Wiki should delete a character's page just because they've reformed. They can still list the character's actions as a villain, like with Vegeta.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Alright folks, I've started VG Monster. I'll do the hard split this weekend. And I'll ask one last time: Since there are now 19 pages with their own works, can I merge ones with 3 (or 4?) onto the main page. There are AT LEAST 4 or 5.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The Fable page, at least, doesn't need to exist.
edited 6th May '15 6:42:34 AM by Camberf
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yeah: That, Dragon Quest, The Elder Scrolls, Metal Gear all have 3, while Super Robot Wars has 4.
edited 6th May '15 7:46:04 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
@39190
I can see Discord still being on the wiki, because he was a villain for some time. But characters who are just scrappies that did things that advanced a villain's goals(I see Jar Jar and Hathaway Noa listed for exactly this reason) should be cut from the Villains wiki. And yes we need a cleanup thread for this.
Also I brought up Palpatine's crimes in SW video games at @39174, should we do a writeup for this?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
The Bothan Massacre (assuming there were innocent civilians killed?) may be enough to count him (even though for him that's standard villainy).
BTW folks, at VG Monster I've added the entries from Dragon Quest, Elder Scrolls, Fable, Metal Gear, and Super Robot Wars before doing the split. I've NOT cutlisted yet though just in case.
Speaking of Super Robot Wars, Lighty's writeups for Aguilla and Lubikka are here
, but were these two ever approved?
- Archibald Grims, a Psycho for Hire without a cause, his objective is only to enjoy more bloodshed, especially if it's from innocents. He also gleefully forces Elzam to make a Sadistic Choice, whether it's to allow Grims to unleash a deadly nerve gas, killing the entire populace of a colony, or to kill his, Elzam's, own wife to prevent the attack.
- Jua-Mu Dalby may not be one from the beginning, but he certainly is an extremely nasty individual despite his youthful appearance. While he's extremely loyal to Al-Van, he completely looks down on Earthlings, insulting them at every chance possible with no chance of even considering them Worthy Opponent (like Fu-Lu Mulu). He is also responsible for partaking in the destruction of Ashalley Kreutzer facility, mentally scarring his 'mentor' Calvina Coulange, and unlike Al-Van, Jua-Mu has no regrets and conflict over it, he just enjoys slaughtering humans over the superiority complex he has as a Fury. When Al-Van is demoted and Jua-Mu took an increase in power via injection of massive Larseium, what remains of his sanity goes away, and instead he punts up his Ax-Crazy Jerkass behavior to the point he's extremely loud in not just insulting humanity, but also personally carrying out mass slaughter on them. At that point, he's just a monster that needs to be put down.
edited 6th May '15 10:40:04 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
At least Archibald was. He's a remnant of when we first went over the page.
As for Joa...the probable true villain of Toriko is introduced now, so I want to wait and see how Joa stacks up, considering only Joa can equal Midora's attempted body count thus far, and Midora's not even the true main bad guy
edited 6th May '15 11:20:57 AM by Lightysnake
Does Yuna's entry for Breath of Fire IV need to be spoilered to hell like that?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]")
And Midora seems like he DEFINITELY doesn't count.
- Does Tommyrod still count?
- With Jua-Mu, he seems to have the deeds, but his loyalty to Al-Van?...You know, I'll just keep for now.
- Fixed. Don't know how I missed that originally. This may take longer than I thought.
edited 6th May '15 11:47:57 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
In all honesty, I think Tommyrod probably doesn't anymore. Midora absolutely doesn't. He might've tried to cause a death toll of billion, but he deeply loved his adopted mother, and still cared for his adoptive brothers (he was crying during a fight with one and deliberately refused to kill him once he won, while laying his corpse to rest respectfully after another enemy finished the job).
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Should I still keep Tommyrod for now just in case? Though if this is correct, he has something of a Graceful Loser/Worthy Opponent thing at the end anyway.
While I'm thinking of it, any news on Nanatsu no Taizai? Or Yhwach from Bleach?
edited 6th May '15 12:07:06 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I think we'd need to discuss Tommy. The heinous standard has grown enormous. He doesn't have a worthy opponent bit so much as him saying the fight he had was fun.
Nanatsu...nothing much. One villain to keep an eye on. Bleach...Yhwach gets worse and worse.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
So Tommy's basically a Blood Knight? I'll keep him for the time being.
As for Yhwach, basically he'll count unless he has some Ass Pull Heel–Face Turn or something?
Yeah, serious despoiling needs to be done for the VG examples.
edited 6th May '15 1:10:39 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Wasn't Piccolo Jr. also made from Kami's purged evil, yet he chose to become good? That gives a chance that King Piccolo did have a choice, and he chose to become evil.
Piccolo Jr. is Demon King Piccolo's last son and reincarnation. Upon Piccolo's birth he still remembered all of King Piccolo's memories and techniques.
But he still made a choice to become good. King Piccolo also could chose to become good, but instead reveled in his evil.
I think for what it's worth, Villains Wiki is well done but seeing characters that are merely jerks and at worst anti heroes on their doesn't sit right with me. I mean, Jar Jar Binks? I know he's a scrappy (or at least people think he is) but he's hardly a jerk.
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.