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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ST89 Since: Feb, 2015
#39151: May 5th 2015 at 9:58:44 AM

Hey, maybe I found a new candidate. Cain (Vinnie Jones) from 2009' The Bleeding

Who is he ? / What does he do ?: A vampire or a demon monarch who apparently borns every 120. Hatch from a soul of a warrior dead in battle possessing his body or either taking his human form. In this case the warrior is the main protagonist's brother dead long ago in Afghanistan. His main goal is to create an army of vampires and destroy all the mankind.

In order to fulfill his plan he committs quite brutal and vicious acts like killing a vampire slayer for having helped his brother, the only one who can kill him, by stabbing him with a dagger and impaling him to a wall. In a flashback we see a figure with his own outfit who kills a man and a woman biting'em to death and then setting the house on fire. The figure is implied to be Cain. This events is what turned the main protagonist, Blake, to be a vampire slayer. To create more army of vampires Cain uses a nightclub as a Death Trap in order to lure people in order to turn them into his own army. However some of'em are simply murdered and he also has some girls tortured and/or raped and/or butchered and thrown away in a mass grave. His henchmen are simply pawns to him as he lets Blake slaying 'em and he even uses his mistress as a human shield. Even after being killed in his last words he promises to came back and restart the cycle all over again.

Redeeming Features ?: Apparently none. While he appears to be "his job" try bringing apocalypse on Earth most of his actions are unnecessary cruel. As for moral agency and he acts like a complete sadist for the whole movie showing a Slasher Smile or giggling maniacally. Reminds the Tall Man at times.

Final Verdict: I don't remember all the movie's details honestly, since I watched it only once. But I think we should consider him a keeper.

edited 5th May '15 10:10:34 AM by ST89

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#39152: May 5th 2015 at 1:37:02 PM

Not sure of Cain. Sure he may be sadistic, but so was the Boogeyman from the Boogeyman trilogy, but he was still Made of Evil. Is there any indication that vampires aren't Always Chaotic Evil or Made of Evil in this film ?

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#39153: May 5th 2015 at 2:40:01 PM

I have a question: Is an Ignored Epiphany enough to disqualify a character? Suppose a character murders someone and a child sees this. The character takes out a gun and points it at the child. The character hesitates to shoot the child and clearly is having trouble bringing themselves to do the deed for moral reasons. However, in the end, they do pull the trigger, run away to avoid getting caught, and get over it after a few hours and never look back on it.

edited 5th May '15 2:40:32 PM by bobg

jjj
Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#39154: May 5th 2015 at 2:45:09 PM

No. Remorse or atonement does need to stick for it to be redeeming, not just something that passed their minds for a second before they happily go back to committing atrocities.

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
ACW Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#39155: May 5th 2015 at 3:26:59 PM

[up]Especially if they end up doing the act anyway. Characters listed on IE who are CMs: Frollo, Sauron, Darth Bane, Oswald Danes, Richard III, among others.

edited 5th May '15 3:27:12 PM by ACW

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#39156: May 5th 2015 at 4:52:50 PM

To elaborate on Bane, he does seem to feel bad about an evil activity very early on, but he soon quashes that side of him and becomes worse with absolutely zero feeling to worse and worse evil deeds

HamburgerTime The Merry Monarch of Darkness from Dark World, where we do sincerely have cookies Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: I know
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
#39157: May 5th 2015 at 5:28:45 PM

By the way, I've been reading the Dragon Ball manga, and I'd just like to toss in a likely meaningless [tdown] for Van Zant. Just as one example, General Blue of the Red Ribbon Army is seen having his men shot for things like picking their nose on the job or failing to hit a target. It's implied he does this all the time. Blue was strong at the time of his first appearance, but the power scale ultimately climbs so high that he's really no different than Zant.

Also, Piccolo Sr. is pretty close to CM, but he seems to care about his "sons" so no dice.

edited 5th May '15 5:28:58 PM by HamburgerTime

The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
sanfranman91 from Boston, MA Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#39158: May 5th 2015 at 6:51:19 PM

A bit late, I know, but I'm giving a [tup] to Otoya. As for Cain, I was going to give an abstain on him but after reading Lighty's latest update I can give a cautious [tup].

Together, we are one.
Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#39159: May 5th 2015 at 7:03:26 PM

[up] Lighty was talking about Darth Bane, not Cain.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#39160: May 5th 2015 at 7:19:26 PM

I'll give a tentative yes to Cain, though.

My writeups will be coming as well. Recent spoilers in Toriko will have me hold off for a bit on Joa, btw.

toonyloon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#39161: May 5th 2015 at 8:11:46 PM

On the subject of Palpatine, what should we do with his writeup on YMMV.The Empire Strikes Back? Which goes as follows:

  • Complete Monster: Emperor Palpatine. While his appearance here is very short, he still qualifies thanks to the sequels, and considering that he is truly heinous by the standards in the history.

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#39162: May 5th 2015 at 8:47:27 PM

Actually in regards to Palpatine's crimes in video games. There is one instance. In one of the missions of Empire at War, an RTS developed detailing some of the campaigns of the Galactic Civil War in the months leading up to the events of Episode IV he himself personally single-handily kills everyone in an entire Bothan city with force lightning and Sith powers to corrupt the population into among each other to find the coordinates of the Death Star Plans after they were stolen from the Empire.

Link is here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mission_to_Bothawui

All the missions are said to be canon within Legends continuity except the final Empire campaign mission, which is pretty much Empire crushes the Rebellion so this is canon.

As for his crimes in TFU, he was aware for quite some time Vader had an secret apprentice. He decided to use this to his advantage by allowing Starkiller/Galen to hunt down surviving Jedi with the end goal of hunting down dissident in the Senate and eventually replacing Vader. To implement this plan he had Vader "pretend" to kill Galen and then manipulate Galen gather prominent anti-empire politicians(ie: Bail Organa, Mon Motha, Garm Bel Iblis) to him through Vader. Vader tells Galen that it was a distraction to have Palpatine deal with a rebellion so they could join forces and overthrow him, but the real goal was to gather the leaders of the rebellion to one place to excecute them. There are implications that he wants to replace Vader with Galen, as he encourages Starkiller to kill Vader after the latter's fight with Vader on the incomplete Death Star.

Link here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Palpatine#The_Secret_Apprentice

Also IIRC the new-EU novel Lords of the Sith is out, does he do anything worth adding?

edited 5th May '15 8:52:41 PM by xie323

SuperSaiyaMan Since: Jun, 2009
#39163: May 5th 2015 at 9:27:40 PM

King Piccolo cares about his sons? Since when, he treated them solely as disposable soldiers.

HamburgerTime The Merry Monarch of Darkness from Dark World, where we do sincerely have cookies Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: I know
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
#39164: May 5th 2015 at 9:28:59 PM

[up] He sent Tambourine to avenge Cymbal's death, for one.

The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
SuperSaiyaMan Since: Jun, 2009
#39165: May 5th 2015 at 9:30:12 PM

[up] While acting all smug. It was more like 'test yourself, I want to see how strong you are from my last batch'.

HamburgerTime The Merry Monarch of Darkness from Dark World, where we do sincerely have cookies Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: I know
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
#39166: May 5th 2015 at 9:30:38 PM

He's also more or less Made of Evil, in any case.

The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#39167: May 5th 2015 at 9:41:05 PM

Yeah, King Piccolo didn't care for his kids, save as soldiers. He is, however, made of Kami's purged evil, so he can't really count.

Klavice I Need a Freaking Drink from A bar at the edge of time (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#39168: May 5th 2015 at 9:52:49 PM

I wish we could do a villains wiki cleanup as well. It lists Mr. Bean as a Sociopath for God's sake.

You thought the Complete Monster trope was abused to hell and back here? Just check Villains Wiki. It's even worse if you can believe it.

It lists villains as CMs that we removed ages ago. If someone is willing to go to that wiki and change things, that would be much appreciated.

Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
HamburgerTime The Merry Monarch of Darkness from Dark World, where we do sincerely have cookies Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: I know
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
#39169: May 5th 2015 at 9:55:11 PM

Villains Wiki is an interesting resource for looking up villains but it doesn't seem to be a very well-managed place.

I mean, Megaten Lucifer as a CM?

edited 5th May '15 9:55:28 PM by HamburgerTime

The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
Klavice I Need a Freaking Drink from A bar at the edge of time (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#39170: May 5th 2015 at 9:58:39 PM

For a while they listed Eric Cartman and Russell Hantz from Survivor as Complete Monsters. I mean they're jerks, but not monsters.

Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#39171: May 5th 2015 at 10:03:30 PM

Not to mention continuously listing villains with severe redeeming qualities as complete monsters

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#39172: May 5th 2015 at 10:03:57 PM

Scraggle and I are actually admins of the Villains Wiki. We kind of manage the category there. We kind of clean the CM category up there.

edited 5th May '15 10:04:43 PM by AustinDR

HamburgerTime The Merry Monarch of Darkness from Dark World, where we do sincerely have cookies Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: I know
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
#39173: May 5th 2015 at 10:05:09 PM

A lot of the entries for Bleach and One Piece villains seem ripped off from those series' Wikis, as well.

The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#39174: May 5th 2015 at 10:07:26 PM

The users who made those articles are usually given a month to rewrite the articles in their own words. If not, we delete them.

But, yeah, I don't really think it's as bad as you'd think.

edited 5th May '15 10:17:06 PM by AustinDR

Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#39175: May 5th 2015 at 10:07:37 PM

I'd say a majority of the characters that are listed as CMs on the Villains Wiki are also listed here, anyway.

edited 5th May '15 10:08:28 PM by Camberf


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