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Good post Ambar: I'm inclined to agree with your points.
edited 6th Oct '12 7:42:30 PM by DrPsyche
While i still think that Camp Lazlo example was the worst I'd encountered, I have found a bad example that shows what happens when people don't go for the worst of the worst, and list all the bad villains. BIONICLE
edited 6th Oct '12 9:10:55 PM by DrPsyche
Azor AhaiI guess I can agree about removing Tywin, but did want to add that it's kind of a pet peeve/berserk button whenever I read anyone saying Tysha wasn't raped- first, there's the idea of only acknowledging her gang rape after it is revealed she wasn't a prostitute- so I guess they think prostitutes can't be raped? IMO, even when initially described during the time when Tyrion did think she was a prostitute, it seems to be pretty clearly described as a brutal gang rape wherein afterward, the rapists tossed money at the victim. I really don't know how anyone could read it any other way. Also, on a related topic, while I do agree Tywin probably shouldn't count (as much as I hate when people give him leather pants), I can't think of any instances where Robb ordered his troops to commit atrocities in the way that Tywin regularly does. Robb's troops do rape and murder civilians, but apparently all soldiers do that. And IMO (could be misremembering), I believe Roose himself took on Hoat (supposedly on Robb's behalf). I don't think Robb had any involvement in hiring the guy. Tl; dr, sorry for the ASOIF fan wank, but Ambar's post set off some of my berserk buttons regarding fan perceptions. Edit- Also, I can see why Lorch should be cut. While what he did (violently stabbing a child to death) isn't really viewed in-series as ok to say the least, it is not uncommon for nobles to wipe out opposing/traitorous families. And Lorch is a lot less evil than his buddy Gregor. Edit2- On the topic of that series, wondered others' thoughts on Qyburn. I actually think he does qualify. While he does look kindly and grandfatherly, he reads as pretty creepy rather than affably evil, and his generally cited redeeming quality (loyalty to Cersei) could likely be ascribed to the fact she allows him to torture and experiment on people to his heart's content.
edited 6th Oct '12 10:28:49 PM by Jordan
I said we don't know if she was raped. Not that she definitively wasn't. Given that we only have the scene from the perspective of a young teenager, we can't definitively say what happened. How many times have perceptions in this series turned out to be wrong? Secondly, as I said before, if it was a rape, that's nothing special in ASOIF. Heck, the fact that Tywin let her go and as far as we know, keep the money, is a vast improvement on the treatment we see most rape victims get. Rorge, the Mountain, and Hoat all do far worse. I'm sorry to say it, but that series as a whole really trivializes rape, and that's one of my issues with it. When do we see Tywin actually order his troops to commit rape and pillage? He sends Gregor and Lorch out, knowing how they're going to act, sure. But since "all soldiers do that" we can level the same accusation at Robb, or any other general for that matter. They all know what their soldiers are liable to do, and we never see any of them punish their troops for how they act. About the only difference I can think of between Tywin and the rest is that he's a tad more self-aware, than Robb or Stanis. Moving on, what, if anything, does Qyburn do onscreen? We know he's a vivisectionist, yes. Onscreen, however, all we see him do is heal Jaime, and makes reports to Cersei about the world and his work on Gregor. Does he ever commit a single atrocity where we can see it? For that matter, do we even see the aftermath of his actions, the way we do with the rest of the Brave Companions? I don't remember it ever happening. I could support cutting Lorch. Does anybody, by the way, who knows the series think that Rorge should be on the page? He strikes me as a possible example, and he manages to be considerably worse even than the rest of the Brave Companions, especially once he sets off on his own.
Azor AhaiI don't really think Qyburn's actions count as off-screen villainy. There's constantly horrible screams coming from his "work station", and he once casually comments that one of his torturees is no longer able to eat under he own volition. He might be a case where we should wait on him, as it wouldn't surprise me if future novels went into more detail about what he's doing/what his experiments involve. He does torture the Blue Bard on Cersei's orders, and it is pretty gruesome. I don't want to excuse Cersei herself, but at least she is somewhat sickened by what she sees him do, whereas Qyburn himself shows no remorse/guilt in the slightest. More generally, Qyburn's evil is a case of Gory Discretion Shot so far, and past evil things done by say Gregor or Lorch aren't on-screen because they happened in the past- that doesn't make them a case of Off Screen Villainy, does it? I mean they are described in some detail.
edited 6th Oct '12 11:25:03 PM by Jordan
Qyburn's actions are not, however, described in detail. There's a lot of screaming going on, and since he is into vivisection, it probably is very bad, but we can't prove that as of yet. All we've got is guesswork. If in a later book we see him going Mengele on somebody, absolutely, we can consider him. EDIT: The scene with the Blue Bard is bad, but even then, he's doing it on Cersei's orders, and if my memory serves, the guy survives it, largely intact.
edited 6th Oct '12 11:28:18 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Azor AhaiUh no, he is reported to have gone insane from torture, and not exactly in one piece ("on screen", Qyburn cuts off one of his nipples and gouges out one of his eyes and probably cut off some of his toes, and wasn't even finished with him yet).
@Dr Psyche: I don't really know BIONICLE but based on what you say I agree that Teridax is the only one that fits the trope. The last three have good qualities and the others don't meet the heinous requirement. @Jordan: Qyburn's tricky, because while he's clearly experimenting on/torturing people in the background of A Feast For Crows almost none of it is elaborated on. Unlike Gregor who has his crimes described in great detail, such as his and his soldiers' rape of an inn keeper's daughter, Qyburn's crimes are mostly Take Our Word for It You Do Not Want To Know. Right now, I think Qyburn doesn't count yet, but he's a likely candidate for the future. EDIT: Ah, forgot about the Blue Bard torture. That is bad... but I'm not sure if it compares to the tortures Ramsay performs on Theon and others. @Ambar: Yeah I think Rorge counts. His first reaction to seeing Arya again, after she saved his life, was planning on raping her. Also, if I'm remembering correctly, as I said it's been awhile since I read A Feast For Crows, the aftermath of the Rape of the Saltpans, which he led, is seen and the attack is described by the survivors.
edited 6th Oct '12 11:45:15 PM by OccasionalExister
Azor AhaiSomething else, I'm not sure if this is the right way of looking at it, but although he acts under her orders/with her permission, I tend to think that Qyburn is worse than Cersei. Because while Cersei is cruel and delusional and pretty good at suppressing guilt, she seems to feel some guilt for her actions (not that it stops her from doing them), whereas Qyburn is sort of inhuman and tortures as casually and methodically as a normal person would brush their teeth. Do agree that he should probably be kept off until more of his "experiments" are shown on screen. Rorge should probably fit since even by Westerosi standards, he's really bad- a pedophilic serial rapist and mass murderer.
edited 6th Oct '12 11:42:37 PM by Jordan
As a general note, I think it's worth reminding people that A Song of Ice and Fire has a lot of Deliberate Values Dissonance going on. When talking about "heinous by the standards of the story", we're generally not talking about the in-universe moral standards, for this or other series. Regarding the specific examples under discussion, I was formerly in favor of including Tywin, but after rereading the series, I've come around to feeling that his family loyalty makes him another 99% Monster. Qyburn, on the other hand, really seems to be pushing the limits of Offscreen Villainy, and I'm more inclined than not to include him.
Just zis guyAn entry added to YMMV.Dredd, by igordebraga: "Ma-Ma, who is capable of destroying a floor filled with Innocent Bystanders with Gatling guns just to get the Judges." The movie doesn't make even the slightest attempt to justify the act other than defending territory as part of a campaign to expand her drug empire to all of Mega-City One, but I'm not sure it really qualifies for CM, particularly in regards to the "truly heinous by the standards of the story" part. Am I misunderstanding Complete Monster, or is the entry misuse of the trope?
Misuse. Killing a floor full of civillians in that universe is run of the mill, and it's also very Genre Savvy considering this is Dredd we're talking about.
Just zis guyThat's about what I thought. The guns, gouging out the tech's eyes, skinning the captured competing druggies and tossing them from umpteen dozen floors up, none of that strikes me as particularly beyond the pale for the Dredd universe.
Okay, I deleted Zemo, Grim Reaper, and General Ross from the Avenger's YMMV page. Skryll!Captain America was already deleted. Thanks for the contributions. EDIT: I looked on the Disney Complete Monster Page and Saw that Anton Sevarius was cut. While, yes, I do believe that his entry does not do him justice (and the reason for him getting cut is sound), I think he counts. While, yes, he did make a pathogen that had the possibility to kill all life on earth, but he didn't know what it would be used for. He has done a bunch of other stuff besides that. He captured several homeless people off of the street to do experiments on them, turning them into mutants, including Xanatos's Pilot (though that was all on orders from Xanatos). When he went to Scotland, he captured and tortured the lochness monster, then when his sub went down, he abandoned the crew to drown. Finally, in the comic continuation (which, by the way is canon), at New Years, he goes into the sewer to perform more experiments on the Homeless (including at least two children), when he is discovered, he reveals that he plans to release the mutagen onto the streets when the people have amassed, and mutate them all into horrible creations in a combination of Money, science, and because he would find it amusing. When he gets away, one of the Homeless women he mutated commits suicide. However, He does get one Pet the Dog moment where he created, not mutated someone into, a monster, and grieves when it has died. However that episode is not considered canon (among other things, Thailog, another CM, gets a Pet the Dog moment, which was even more uncharacteristic, and all the clones died), and Anton doesn't normally show any affection to his creations, thinking of them as just experiments.
edited 7th Oct '12 11:20:38 AM by DrPsyche
South Park YMMV:
edited 7th Oct '12 12:30:56 PM by xie323
Righty-Ho Saddam: Played for laughs Kyle's mom, even if she was A CM, it would only be in a movie, and she did pull a Heel-Face Turn. So, no Lord Zedd: Initially he was bad (haven't seen him), he devolved into ineffective and failed the heinous standard. Are you saying Wiseman should stay, you seem to be. I should also add: That in the future, the world has become peaceful, and in the manga it was Death Phantom, who reintroduced murder and evil as a concept. Rubeus: Hard to say if he counts. His lack of empathy and sadism are pretty big for a miniboss (many of whom have good qualities). Yes, he did manipulate and almost kill Koan, and he supplanted power into Petz's staff to make her crazy. In addition, he captured most of the heroes, and kept spamming Sailor Moon with a gravity attack to kill her. He did this when she had a view of her friends being captured, so he could see her run ineffectively at them, and loose hope as she was crushed. Also ZOMG ALLCAPS NO, yeah, whatever the fandom thinks is irrelevant. Chaos: That really depends, because he takes on several forms which are considered seperate entities. Metalia and Pharaoh 90 are eldrich abominations. Nehelenia is Sailor Moon's dark mirror counter part (In the Manga, not the anime). And Galaxia willingly accepted Chaos to rule the Galaxy. One can read Death Phantom's entry for themselves to know why he counts. Now, in the Manga, aside from WMG's, he only really appears in the final season, corrupting Galaxia and turning her idea of peace, to conquest and subjugation. This means he warped her ideal into being a Well-Intentioned Extremist, while it sought to kill/destroy. Honestly, I don't know if it's made of Evil, or made of chaos, but often manifests as evil. Nighloks: yeah, no groups.
edited 7th Oct '12 2:30:05 PM by DrPsyche
Azor AhaiRE the Gargoyles examples, have some concerns about issues of canon- could you explain what counts as canon and what doesn't? IIRC, there was a successor series that was bad and rejected by both fans and Greg Wiseman, but isn't it technically still canon/in continuity?
Puʻu ʻŌʻōHe was also potholed to Complete Monster all the time. Took it out.
Gargoyles had two main seasons considered Canon. the third Season was made without Greg Weisman, the creator, and quite a few of his creative decisions were ignored. Weisman himself continued the series, when Disney licensed their property to Slave Labor Graphics. Weisman wrote the comic issues which ignored the third season, and continued the story. Weisman has declared the third season as non-canon. Finally, it should be noted that the first episode of Season 3 Weisman had wrote, and, to avoid confusion, he adapted it into the comics (issues 1-2), so the story is still canon. Disney owns Gargoyles, and they licensed it for the Comics sequel, so I believe that it's canon.
edited 7th Oct '12 2:27:38 PM by DrPsyche
Just looking through the videogames section I found some examples that violate the rule about groups. From the Mario games there's the Shroobs. From the Dragon Quest games there's the entire Gittish Empire. From the Mass Effect games there's the Teltin scientists. And from the Main Page there's every example given for SWAT 4. Also, I don't think that B.B. Hood from Darkstalkers qualifies. She's creepy and kills demons. That's about it. The video games section is looking better and better, though.
Yeah, I do believe that only two examples from the Mario page is worth keeping based upon discussion (thus we can't keep the subpage), and the sandbox did account for a lot of what you brought up (including the removal of B. B. Hood). I do agree with removing the groups as you said.
edited 7th Oct '12 5:17:50 PM by EarlOfSandvich
Status of possible Fallout RP idea: Thinking of and open to new ideas.
I'd like to contest taking Ghetsis from Pokemon off of the Complete Monster list. I've checked these things, he still counts as a Complete Monster even with these new rules or standards. You guys just didn't want to have bile flung at them. Really? As if trying to murder people, manipulating people and just downright being a horrible person didn't mean they were a horrible person. So I'm sorry I'm the only one who doesn't seem to be willing to let this guy off the hook. Let's not even go into what he was up to in the sequel.
Welcome to MeEdit - Cut
edited 7th Oct '12 6:47:21 PM by MsCC93
Azor AhaiWow, you really don't get how this trope works at all... Intersting to me how all of the bad complete monster examples seem to have that same hyperbolic tone. He's very much played for laughs and his plan is motivated for somewhat well-intentioned reasons, seeing as Springfield was horribly polluted and the government didn't want it to spread. And the killing millions of people part is sort of a No Endor Holocaust example, as the film doesn't really give a lot of focus to the horrible implications that the plan would have in reality (i.e. it doesn't play it seriously in the slightest), nor for that matter is the original doming presented as something that would kill/killed anyone. Besides, I doubt millions of people live in Springfield anyway.
edited 7th Oct '12 6:46:00 PM by Jordan
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