Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

edited 7th Nov '17 9:59:04 AM by Fighteer

[up] Can you finally cut The Mad Doctor by the way?
3627 Fighteer4th Oct 2012 01:18:02 PM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
I thought I did. What's missing? Edit: nvm, hang on

edited 4th Oct '12 1:18:19 PM by Fighteer

He is on Disney page. He is still there.
3629 Fighteer4th Oct 2012 01:20:23 PM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Removed. I have no idea what to do about the image, though.
I did hear the suggestion to remove that too. I also hear about a move to replace it with a picture of one of Claude Frollo's crimes, iirc.

edited 4th Oct '12 1:23:03 PM by EarlOfSandvich

I now go by Graf von Tirol.
3631 SeptimusHeap4th Oct 2012 01:22:46 PM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
^That would go to Image Pickin', because "image not an example" is not an insta-pull criterium.
3632 RLNice4th Oct 2012 01:42:51 PM from a computer
Bigfoot Puncher
I've noticed that the Albanian sex traffickers from Taken have been removed with no link to the relevant part of this discussion that explained why. I'm going to go ahead and assume it was because it was because they were a group, and groups can't be Complete Monsters.

I think they can still qualify with a little rewording from calling the entire organization CM's to saying that the majority of the members are CM's.

Or was there another reason they were cut? I don't know how to search for terms in a specific thread so I can't find the relevant part of the discussion.
A fistful of me.
3633 Fighteer4th Oct 2012 01:44:36 PM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Organizations cannot be CM's, period. Individual members may be, but only if they are distinct from the group as a whole — that is, they are given names, personalities, and act as distinct characters. Each must then be evaluated on his/her own merits, on the basis of on-screen actions.

edited 4th Oct '12 1:45:29 PM by Fighteer

So, Fighteer, you mean that it is impossible to cut the image? Because we should cut it too.
3635 Fighteer4th Oct 2012 02:19:18 PM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Huh? No, of course it should be cut. Start an Image Pickin' thread about it to decide on the proper replacement.
3636 DrPsyche4th Oct 2012 02:53:03 PM from Hawaii , Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
[up][up] PM me if you get that started.
3637 RLNice4th Oct 2012 03:04:37 PM from a computer
Bigfoot Puncher
[up][up][up] My suggestion stands. I think specific members of the Albanian sex traffickers should be returned to the list.
A fistful of me.
@3576: From Jak and Daxter, Iíd cut all of them except for Baron Praxis. Veger at least thinks heís doing the right thing even if he is a tool about it, while I see Gol and Maia and Kor as generic doomsday villains. Gol and Maia aren't given much characterization beyond being driven insane by Dark Eco, and Korís motivations seemed to boil down to being a big creepy monster who wanted to eat people. I donít know where the idea of Praxis being a Well-Intentioned Extremist came from. Seems clear everything he did, he did for power. The only reason he was fighting the Metal Heads was because if they won, he would either die, or at the very least lose his power. When the Metal Heads invaded and he sacrificed a part of the town to keep them at bay, he cut a deal with the Metal Head leader to attack the city just enough so that the citizens wouldnít be concerned with overthrowing Praxis. He tortured and experimented on Jak for two years, overthrew his king and exiled him to the wastelands, spends a lot of his time looking for his kingís child so he can kill him and secure power for himself, cuts off the water supply to an entire section of the town to destroy La Rťsistance, and threatens to kill his own daughter if her Love Interest doesnít betray his fellows to Praxisís troops.

@3618: I pretty much agree with everything you said regarding Myst. Sirrus is the only clearcut entry on the page while Archenar should be cut. Gehn and Esher may count, but if nobody can provide decent rewrites for them I say cut. The groups should be cut. The way A'Gaeris is currently written it makes him sound little more than an ass, I say cut on him in lieu of rewrite.

edited 4th Oct '12 3:31:12 PM by OccasionalExister

The Chaotic Queen
[up] That's all offstage though.
(>^.^)> (>^.^<) <(^.^<) <(^.^)> v(^.^)^
[up]Who, Praxis? We do see him having Jak experimented on and tortured during the gameís opening sequence. Turning the water back on is also one of the first missions Jakís given in the game. As for the rest I believe it was agreed that a boss is accountable for his minionsí actions, especially when we see him ordering them. We see Praxis giving orders to Erol to have the child heir found, and thereís an Escort Mission where Jak has to protect the kid from Praxisís Krimzon Guard. We see Praxisís troops delivering Eco to the Metal Heads on his behalf, and Praxis personally cutting deals with the Metal Head leader. We do only have Tornís (the aforementioned Love Interest) word that Praxis threatened to kill his daughter, Ashelin, though, but there are other crimes heís ordered and his troops attempt to carry out that can be mentioned. Such as enslaving the Lurker race and having his soldiers attempt to arrest everyone in a section of the city because Underground members were rumored to be hiding there.

edited 4th Oct '12 5:48:06 PM by OccasionalExister

Somebody has tried to add Gundam SEED's Patrick Zala to the Gundam subpage. I've removed the example and asked them to come here to explain themselves. That being said, Patrick is not an example of this trope. He's a bad, bad guy, a General Ripper bent on genocide, but at the same time, he's just human enough to miss this trope. For one thing, his counterpart on the other side of the war, Muruta Azrael, is infinitely worse. Patrick's also acting out of the belief that the other side wants all of his people dead (which they do) and on grief caused by the death of his wife, who was one of 250 000 people killed when Azrael opened the war with a nuclear assault on a civillian colony. His death scene is played for a level of pathos, his son Athrun is clearly sad to see him go, and once again, he's not the worst person in the show.

EDIT: Will be cutting Obadiah Hakeswill. Research indicates that while he meets the heinous standard, he has one redeeming quality, namely his regard for mothers and mother figures. He even protects a hostage who tells him she came to the church to pray for her mother.

EDIT: Kjartan the Cruel loves his son and is a generous boss to boot. He goes.

EDIT: Cut the 120 Days of Sodom entry for being badly written, giving no context, and being a group. Three strikes and it's out.

Will be adding a new entry for Whale Talk's Rich Marshall, extrapolating on what I wrote earlier. Will try to keep it brief but informative.

edited 4th Oct '12 7:38:59 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

[up]I second that. Patrick Zala doesn't count. His major motivation for being hell bent on genocide is because they killed his wife and a large chunk of the population of his country in an unprovoked nuclear strike. Murata Azreal doesn't have that going for him.

Also it is fairly clear that Patrick is being manipulated Rau Le Cruset while all Rau is doing to Azreal is feeding him intelligence data. Azreal would be making the same decisions regardless of Rau's manipulation. I am not so sure about Patrick.
I've fixed both Rich Marshall and Sir Martin's entries now. I tried to cut down the length of Rich's entry from what I wrote earlier, but couldn't really do it. Feel free to edit it yourselves.

[up]This. Le Creuset (the actual Big Bad) has his hand firmly up Patrick's ass and encourages his every bad choice. Throw in the fact that Patrick has a functioning (and recent) Freudian Excuse, and the fact that Muruta Azrael is a much worse person (he wants to do the same things as Patrick, but with a lot more sadism, and no mitigating factors) and I think there's a pretty solid argument for keeping Patrick off of this page and out of this trope.

edited 4th Oct '12 7:54:09 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

3644 Shaoken5th Oct 2012 04:57:51 AM , Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
@ RL: If you can propose a good write up we'd consider it, but truthfully I don't think any of them have enough characterisation to count. Not to mention that the whole ring is pretty much equal on the evil-o-metre. How do you single one of them out and say "he's the CM of the group" when their actions are all the same.
The Chaotic Queen
I nominate cutting Death from Final Destination. He's an Ultimate Evil Eldritch Abomination. I don't think any supernatural being can qualify on the grounds of Blue and Orange Morality. Even if deities can qualify, he's Death; it's his job to keep the cycle of life and death moving along, and I can understand him being angry at people trying to cheat his design.
(>^.^)> (>^.^<) <(^.^<) <(^.^)> v(^.^)^
3646 Fighteer5th Oct 2012 09:08:27 AM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Umm, yes. You can't call an Anthropomorphic Personification of a primal force a Complete Monster. It fails the moral agency test.
Just started the IP thread for Monster.Disney.

@OC: I do see your justifications there. Just wondering why Praxis was cited as a Well-Intentioned Extremist (not so well-intentioned by the looks of your arguments) in the first place.

edited 5th Oct '12 9:32:29 AM by EarlOfSandvich

I now go by Graf von Tirol.
On a similar note, Satan from The Passion of the Christ should not qualify. He/she doesn't really do anything in the movie, not directly that we see at any rate. Just saying "he's Satan" isn't enough to get him on the page.

I'm also not sure about God from Legion qualifying. The farther a character gets from a human being, the harder a time I have pinning them as a CM, and I'm pretty sure that he never even appears on screen, so he should be disqualified just for that.
Speaking of Disney, "the Huntsclan" from American Dragon: Jake Long are listed as Complete Monsters, so we should take that down too, as it violates the rule about groups being Complete Monsters.

And does the Disney page really need a video games section if it only lists one character from Kingdom Hearts? That series already has an entire page for Complete Monsters.

edited 5th Oct '12 9:50:55 AM by Camberf

3650 Fighteer5th Oct 2012 09:52:02 AM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
I agree that listing Kingdom Hearts on the Monster.Disney page is stupid. The others also should not be there, but I'll wait for further agreement before executing the cuts.

Total posts: 112,160
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