Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

edited 15th Jan '13 1:45:24 PM by Fighteer

Now for Jak and Daxter:
  • Gol and Maia: Both warped by a Psycho Serum leading up to their villainy. I vote cut.
  • Praxis: Saw him cited as Well-Intentioned Extremist in the character page, albeit with an emphasis towards the latter for his iron-fisted rule. Can't see much beyond brutal tyrant who filled in at the event of the Metal Head seige, so I lean cut.
  • Kor: From looking at the series' wiki, this may be the only keeper out of the four, but then again I'd have to rely on the input of those who have played the games for an opinion.
  • Count Veger: Cited as Well-Intentioned Extremist, albeit wanting to kill Jak for personal reasons. I would lean towards cutting based upon this characterization.

EDIT: For other subpages, that's four votes to outright remove the League of Legends page (is that all that's needed?), and I concur with the possible Mario and The Elder Scrolls changes, of which the former I took note of in the sandbox. I also concur with proposed changes to Artix and Breath of Fire, and I could note those changes on the sandbox if that's okay.

edited 2nd Oct '12 9:01:48 AM by EarlOfSandvich

I now go by Graf von Tirol.
3577 32_Footsteps2nd Oct 2012 09:09:07 AM from Just north of Arkham , Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
Okay, having done a quick once-over of East of Eden (damn, I need to reread that; true classic of literature), Cathy's murder of her parents does happen on-screen in a flashback (death by arson). And she does part from her children's father by shooting him in the shoulder.

That said, there is a rather dark moment early on where she's savagely beaten by a pimp (she works as a prostitute early), and she's later wracked by guilt when meeting her adult sons. So she has some elements of Jerkass Woobie, plus she has a legit Heel Realization and signs over her money to her surviving son (one dies during World War I) before committing suicide. So, I vote to cut.

@3570 I missed the Millennium Trilogy examples - what post was that?

@3572 I discussed her in @2115. Cut.

Okay, finally taking full stock of the Monster.Disgaea page...

Upon consideration, I actually think Vulcanus should be cut completely. On one hand, yes, he does suffer from Fantastic Racism and he is somewhere on the Knight Templar/Well-Intentioned Extremist spectrum. On the other, Strawman Has a Point - you run into many more demons who are various flavors of evil than Noble Demon or Punch Clock Villain types like Krichevskoy (and it takes all game for Laharl to get there, and that's the Golden Ending). Moreover, it's a bit understandable that he doesn't mind humans dying, when he knows full well that they'll be reincarnated and/or get to go to heaven if they're virtuous. I don't think he hits the "complete" part of the trope name.

Mention of Nemo should be removed because, as it points out, he doesn't count.

The false Overlord Zenon really doesn't show up much. Most of his deeds are Offscreen Villainy. Much more a generic Evil Overlord than anything else. Cut.

Super Hero Aurum is the only one who I'd include. Unlike Vulcanus, it doesn't seem like he even cares about good versus evil - he's just a Blood Knight. And he deliberately kills a demon's father just so he can do a twisted take on Wife Husbandry - he raises Mao to become a brutal monster so that they can have a gargantuan duel. I would take the for him out of spoiler tags and put it into the sandbox, cutting the rest.

edited 2nd Oct '12 10:46:03 AM by 32_Footsteps

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
@ Chaotic Queen

I agree with the removal of Chris Mc Lean. He is a Harmless Villain.

@Dr Psyche

I would also cut all those examples you mentioned. I don't think Narnia series had any complete monsters.

EDIT: I just removed Jadis and Lady of the green kirtle from Literature page. Jadis was discussed long time ago already and we decided that she doesn't count. I also removed the line about Virgil Byrnes getting a karma, since we decided that the karma get has nothing to do with the character's status as a CM.

edited 2nd Oct '12 9:58:10 AM by Krystoff

I deleted Chris from YMMV.Total Drama Island. Krystoff, thank you for sending the request to delete him from Monster.Western Animation.
[up] Thats okay. I wanted to do it for a very long time already. Another villain from Western Animation that I want to discuss;

  • Lawyer Goodwill from Warner Bros. short "The Case of the Stuttering Pig. He at first presents himself gentle and kindly towards Porky Pig and his brothers. But then he reveals his true colors when he intends to kill them all in order to obtain their rich uncle's fortune. So he transforms himself with a formula into a psychotic, hideous Mr Hyde - like monster and tries to get'em all. In his monster form he evolves from a Smug Snake into a terrifying Large Ham who wants to kill all the pigs basically For the Evulz. He also frequently warns the audience in a creepy and harsh manner they can't help his victims. When he kidnaps some of Porky's bros he also sadistically explains how he intends to kill'em doing the throat-slitting gesture. Luckily he gets defeated by the guy in the third row he used to keep insulting.

All he tries to do is to kill the heroes as every single villain does. Also, Weblinks Are Not Examples, and this is exactly how the entry looks like.
I know the Fallout subpage has been reviewed pages ago, but as long as we're dealing with the Video Games subpage, I've taken another look:
  • For Myron: I'm kind of on the fence on that one, as we never did see the killings attributed to the process of making Jet. On the other hand, he not only brings that up himself, he bragged about it while demonstrating a knowing disregard of human life
  • For Vulpes: Yes, I did bring him up when I started posting on this thread, and discussion did allow for his entry, but although we see him in Nipton's ruin fresh from his subversive campaign, the only way of knowing of his attack at Camp Searchlight (aside from talking to Legate Lanius in the end) is from his own written orders found in the ruin. Never played a Legion playthrough yet, so I can't really add on to thoughts about his collaborative plot with the Omertas to chlorine bomb New Vegas.
  • For Salt-Upon-Wounds: His actions, particularly what he had done to New Canaan, did set the scene for Honest Hearts, and he had no plan for his own people aside from joining the Legion by any, even downright sadistic and dishonorable, means. However, given the scenario of the New Canaan massacre occurring before the game, I'm not sure if that means he can stay.

I'm rather fine with the rest of the entries as they are.

edited 2nd Oct '12 11:48:33 AM by EarlOfSandvich

I now go by Graf von Tirol.
3582 DrPsyche2nd Oct 2012 11:59:55 AM from Hawaii , Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
[up][up] While, yes, I do think that's bad, it's not exactly CM material, also, Weblinks Aren't Examples, but the example explains why that the guy did was bad, without the need to click on the link, so I don't think this is a case of weblinks are not examples.

edited 2nd Oct '12 12:01:05 PM by DrPsyche

Rest my child
Neath the tree
Like it's branches reach for me
[up] I would say no as well. He makes the cartoon scary, so I guess this is the reason why he is in the entry. This is perfect example of people thinking Nightmare Fuel = Complete Monster and we agreed many times already that it doesn't work this way (and if I recall correctly, it was often given as an excuse to add Discord).
I concur with the cutting of Jadis. Heck I'd concur with a hatchet job on most of the Narnia villains. They just aren't bad enough to count. I'd also support cutting the Wicked Witch of the West, since a) wanting to avenge your sister is understandable, and b) she's a fairly stereotypical fairy-tale witch.

Assuming there's some consensus, I'll cut the literature examples I raised yesterday at some point this evening (I did the same thing yesterday for the examples raised the day before).

@32 Footsteps

The Millennium Trilogy was discussed at 3464. Only one other troper responded to the post, so I left them alone. Feel free to take a look yourself though.
Lola "Princess" Stone and her father, the torturers from "The Loved Ones" qualify. They show no remorse and lack any semblance of humanity. They kidnap and torture the main character because he didn't take Lola to prom, but it's not like he even bullied her or put her down in a particularly mean way, he just told her that he was going with his girlfriend, so they really don't even have the tiniest reason or excuse for their actions. They had been doing this for years before the film takes place, too; they didn't actually kill the boys they kidnapped, but instead gave them a Fate Worse Than Death by drilling a hole in their head, causing them to become essentially brain-dead, and locking them in the cellar. I know pretty much all villains who appear in such "torture porn" horror movies qualify, but these two are particularly egregious examples.
3586 SeptimusHeap2nd Oct 2012 02:23:30 PM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
From the Wikipedia page, it looks like it qualifies. That said, the "before the film took place" stuff should be omitted since it's Offscreen Villainy.
@3581: I wouldn’t be too fussed if Myron or Salt-Upon-Wounds were cut, though during the mission Flight From Zion, we do actually see Salt-Upon-Wounds and his goons try to wipe out the peaceful Sorrows tribe who are only trying to evacuate Zion. Vulpes Inculta, however, I say keep. We see Nipton on fire and its population crucified and still alive, and Vulpes standing before it taking credit for all of it. We also see the NCR of Searchlight turned into feral ghouls and have to Mercy Kill most of them in a mission.

edited 2nd Oct '12 2:32:37 PM by OccasionalExister

@Septimus Heap: Sorry, I probably should've mentioned that the main character gets locked in the cellar with the other brain-dead victims during the film, and the few that were still alive had been eating either each other or other victims that were thrown in. Even though we don't see them get tortured, it's not just mentioned in passing, so I'm not sure that it counts as Off Screen Villainy.

edited 2nd Oct '12 2:38:25 PM by Camberf

The Chaotic Queen
This was under Monster.Cartoon Network:

  • Moral Orel
    • Clay Puppington, the father of series protagonist Orel Puppington, arguably ascends to this position in season 3, with his Jerkassery being heightened beyond regular standards. Although Clay has very sympathetic reasons for why he ended up the way he did (having been psychologically abused by his father, who blamed him for the death of his wife (and Clay's mother) and essentially forced into a married life he despised by a desperate Bloberta), Clay's actions go well beyond the realm of the sympathetic and can only be described as pure evil. In the season 2 finale "Nature", Clay takes Orel on a hunting trip. When kind-hearted Orel doesn't want to kill any animals, an increasingly intoxicated Clay takes this as a sign of weakness and berates Orel with increasing frequency. The terrible but fateful night culminates in an argument which ends with Clay accidentally shooting Orel, his own son, in the leg. Instead of getting help or even asking if he's all right, Clay actually mocks his son while he's in agonizing pain before passing out. He drank the bottle of disinfectant that Orel brought in his first aid kit. He even says to him to leave it. It doesn't end there, either — Orel is forced to protect his unconscious father from a bear that night (again, after having been shot in the leg) whom Orel is forced to shoot, despite not wanting to. Clay wakes up with no memory of the night before. The incident results in Orel having a limp for the rest of his life. What really takes the cake, however, is that it's subtly implied that Clay does remember what he did, but both refuses to take responsibility for it and seems not to hold any regret over it whatsoever. The event is so traumatic that it changes the very tone of the entire series for the remainder of its run to a much more straightforwardly dark one.
    • As if that wasn't bad enough, Clay has no love in his heart for anyone. He openly despises everyone in town, never even tries to make up with his son, and his homosexual affair with Coach Stopframe is really nothing more than an attempt for him to find happiness for himself. Although Stopframe is far from a saint himself, after befriending Orel and becoming perhaps Orel's first genuine father figure, he realizes the emptiness of Clay's affection and turns him down...despite the fact that he originally tried to get close to Clay himself to begin with. Perhaps the true tragedy of the whole thing is that Clay is fully aware of how much of a monster he is, but he just doesn't care. He's that unhappy with his life. However, in an ironic sense, Clay is really the source of so much of his own misery. He's alone because he makes it that way, and it's a miserable fate Orel thankfully manages to dodge in his own adulthood.
    • Bloberta Puppington herself. It was Bloberta, after all, who started Clay's alcoholism and eventually became the source of so much of both his and her own misery. A tragic trait the two share is that while they're both the sources of their own unhappiness, they could probably change things if they chose to. Instead, they retreated into a life of constant denial, using the Christian religion and conservative pretenses as a mere cover-up for their own misery. The completely selfish disregard of their children's own happiness and well-being by indulging in this behavior is really what makes both Clay and Bloberta complete monsters in their own right.
    • Had the series not been canceled, the unmade episodes would have Clay and Bloberta going through Character Development and making their own redemptions in some way, or at least not be doomed to complete misery.
    • Miss Censordoll, Moralton's librarian, is a hypocrite and plotter and feels no remorse for steamrolling over others to get her way. While she, like the other characters, has a decent Freudian Excuse (harsh relationship with her mother, mainly involving her reproductive organs being removed at an early age), it's nowhere near as valid as Bloberta's or Clay's. It's shown briefly in the series that she has powers similar to voodoo or witchcraft that she uses to get her way, both times influencing Clay into becoming her puppet. If the series has a Big Bad, she's it.
      • It says something about Clay and Bloberta when "her mother removing her reproductive organs at an early age" is less valid an excuse for their actions.

And this was under YMMV.Moral Orel
  • Complete Monster: There really isn't a more fitting trope to describe the true form of Clay when he's drunk. He may be a monster with a tragic pathos, but he is still a monster.
    • Coach Stopframe is implied to be this in an early episode, intending to use Orel as a satanic sacrifice. Even Stopframe is horrified at seeing Clay as he really is, though.

First off, we should delete the last paragraph of each of those, because they are meaningless Natter. Also, I really don't see Clay or Bloberta as Complete Monsters. I specifically watched every episode to see for myself what makes them count, and I think they should be deleted. Clay is a gigantic, selfish asshole, but the worst thing he does is shoot Orel in the leg. Bloberta didn't know what drinking would do to Clay, so she can't be fully accountable. Besides, Bloberta shows small traces of genuine love for Orel. The worst Bloberta does is destroy her own vagina so she can have an affair with her gynocologyst. Meanwhile, Orel is considered the Poster-Boy for Incorruptible Pure Pureness, despite beating up his boss for crack, killing God-knows-how-many people, raping every women in the city while they're asleep, and causing a zombie apocolypse in the first episode. Clay and Bloberta gotta go. Miss Censordoll? I'm honestly not sure.

edited 2nd Oct '12 9:26:17 PM by ChaoticQueen

(>^.^)> (>^.^<) <(^.^<) <(^.^)> v(^.^)^
3590 DrPsyche2nd Oct 2012 09:47:41 PM from Hawaii , Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Moral Orel time grin

Stopframe: No, his example isn't even an example, it even says so.

Bloberta: She has some redeeming features, and even if she didn't, she fails in heinousity to Clay.

Clay: What an asshole. Crimes: Shooting Orel in the knee, taking away any medicine, leaving both of them stuck in the woods for over a day, with Orel's bullet wound, and blames Orel for it (This was his Moral Event Horizon). He manipulated Doghy's lack of parental figures to have him outshine Orel, and threw Doughy away, furthur emotionally scarring him. Clay regularly beats Orel (Almost always played for laughs, but it is played seriously sometimes, not as abuse, but showing his psychological problems). Some episodes tend to portray Clay's problems as leaving him an emotionally distraught and pitiable person, namely, the episode where he was in a bar with the cop, the doctor, and the reverend. Ultimately, I'd say no, he doesn't count.

NOTE: Orel's crimes were all played for laughs (No matter how tasteless the pregnancy thing was).

Censordoll: Hard to decide, she's an evil, hypocritical matriarch, who brings the entire town under her sway, not in the name of the lord, but for her own power. Also, she apparently manipulated Clay, via voodoo, to shoot Orel. That last event was just something the creator apparently said was to be in an unproduced episode, the canonicity is doubtful and it shall not count towards her. She also seduces clay, using some freaky Oedipal attraction to his mother. In the end, she doesn't have enough definitive heinous actions under her belt (Damn you adult swim, for cutting this short).

edited 2nd Oct '12 11:29:59 PM by DrPsyche

Rest my child
Neath the tree
Like it's branches reach for me
3591 Voyd2113rd Oct 2012 06:54:34 AM from Somewhere in the Midwest
Let's rumba!
What about Guame? If I recall, the only thing keeping him in line is Lordgenome. Yeah, technically he has the same justification as Lordgenome (that being the Spiral Nemesis), but he looks like he's having tons of fun breaking Nia.

But then, I haven't seen Gurren Lagann in a while...
So can you tell me what exactly does freedom mean, if I'm not free to be as twisted as I wanna be?
So, does anybody object to me requesting to cut Lawyer Goodwill?
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
[up][up]Nah, he's just a bit dickish to The Cutie, and has served as Lordgenome's loyal pet/companion for milennia. Nowhere near the heinousness standard for this trope, and violates the 'no altruism/loved ones' criterion.
What's precedent ever done for us?
I editted and requested a lock be placed on The Elder Scrolls Complete Monster page.

[up][up]I support cutting Lawyer Goodwill. You're right, he's scary but a standard baddie, not a Complete Monster.

[up][up][up]If he has the same Well-Intentioned Extremist motives as his boss, he wouldn't count for this trope, even if he did act sadistically at one point.

@3585: Sounds like they count. They do anything else?

edited 3rd Oct '12 9:22:19 AM by OccasionalExister

3595 32_Footsteps3rd Oct 2012 09:40:49 AM from Just north of Arkham , Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
Okay, first, going back to @3464...

Oh, that might've been why I missed it - nearly the whole damn thing was spoilered. So that's got to go, regardless of anything else.

Martin Vanger... I think it depends on just how many of those actions are shown on-screen. That's the only thing that looks to be in question.

Gottfried Vanger... pretty much the same deal as his son. I need to know how much is on-screen.

Nils Bjurman doesn't sound nearly as bad as either Vanger. Cut.

Alexander Zalachenko... I'm inclined to cut, because he also doesn't sound as bad as the Vangers. Unless someone has an argument on why he should stay, I say cut.

Dr. Peter Telebornian, once again, is a question of whether this is shown in a flashback or not.

So I have two cuts, and three that are pending based on how much was actually shown in the course of the book or flashbacks.

@3580 Seems like a generic Big Bad (but hey, worse than The Mad Doctor example that's still not only on Monster.Disney, but the trope picture as well). I think that anyone wanting to keep The Mad Doctor should want to keep Lwyer Goodwill. Of course, I vote to cut them both.

@3581 For Myron, we can cut the part about the killings related to Jet, but he still looks like he qualifies. For Vulpes, the case is closer, but I'm leaning towards keeping as-is. For Salt-Upon-Wounds, it was presented as those actions happening in-game. If they did not, then he should be cut.

@3585 I see someone is trying to get people playing the TV Tropes Drinking Game to have a drink. For the example itself, while I would discount the stuff that happened previous to the movie, the Wikipedia page for the movie does point out that they inject bleach into the guy's throat, and they attempt to lobotomize him by drilling a hole in his head and pouring boiling water down the hole (and attempts are what counts, not the fact that they failed at the "pour boiling water" part). Plus, the fact that they're shown to keep lobotomized men captive and starving in a basement dungeon is pretty bad. Also, Lola does kill two people (her mother and a cop), and tries to kill another (the main character's girlfriend) - her father is dead at this point, so those last couple of items don't count against him.

That said, Lola Stone has a clear Electra Complex (she sees her father as her ideal man), and he loves his daughter (although I don't see any indication that he loved her in that way). Mind you, they apparently show this love by mutilating, lobotomizing, and killing others. I'm actually inclined to say that it's a twisted mockery of love and they should qualify.

@3590 is an excellent rundown on why all of the Moral Orel examples should be cut. Terrible human beings one and all, but there's a huge Cycle Of Abuse thing that makes most of the characters Jerkass Woobie qualifiers (except for the few like Orel who skip the Jerkass and are just The Woobie).

@3591: From the FAQ in the first post:

So, how do I suggest an example, either to be removed or to be added?: Just post the candidate and where they are from, along with your arguments for or against their inclusion. If few people have responded, bring it up again politely after a couple of days. We're busy folks; we sometimes miss things.

Putting a Sink Hole for the series is not posting where they are from. If you can't be bothered to actually say the name of the series, I can't be bothered to consider your proposal. Don't forget, an argument for inclusion needs to look like it belongs on the page.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
[up] Actually, I have new thoughts on The Mad Doctor now. Even though, I admit that originally I nearly became a Single-Issue Wonk about him, I re-watched the cartoon again. Now, I think that the reason people (including me originally) label him as one (and even provide a page image) is because of his being so scary and whole cartoon being Nightmare Fuel.

I would say that this is perfect example of Nightmare Fuel = Complete Monster, and we agreed that it doesn't work this way.

He is disturbing because of his appearance, Evil Laugh, dancing skeletons, but in reality all he is, is simply a Mad Scientist who attempted to kill Mickey (which many other cartoon villains tried as well).

So, now I vote to cut.
3597 AustinDR3rd Oct 2012 02:17:05 PM from Ripley, MS , Relationship Status: If it's you, it's okay
I eat Little Baby's Ice Cream.
Ehh Okonogi from Monster.Higurashi didn't he compliment the club members on how they beat him? My memory of the anime isn't that good so correct me if I'm wrong if he had any redeemable factors. And I also have a question on Offstage Villainy. I know it doesn't qualify for a complete monster, but does it count if it was mentioned in passing or if the villain mentions in horrifying detail about their previous crimes, and can villains count as monsters if their actions weren't shown just because they would be too brutal for the viewer to watch? For example, Shan-Yu from Mulan is regared as a monster on the Disney list, yet his actions weren't shown to the viewers. The only thing that you see is the aftermath in which a village was destroyed and a doll was found without an owner implying that the owner was most likely killed. Nor was one of the Huns shown shooting one of the messengers with an arrow. Though, clear up to me why Offstage Villainy does not equal a Complete Monster.
Who will go to the cellar down below?

[up]Offstage Villainy implies that the audience is shielded from the villainy. That's not the case with Shan-Yu. He says he'll kill everyone in that village, and we see the aftermath. He orders the archer to kill a man, and the archer fires. The cause and effect is obvious in that case; it's more Gory Discretion Shot than Offstage Villainy (we don't see the blood and guts, but we certainly see the evil). It also helps that in his case, he's part of the Disney Animated Canon, which is not the darkest canon around.

@32 Footsteps: That makes three votes to cut Bjurman and Zalachenko. I'll axe them tonight. At 3489 Occasional Exister gives a pretty good summation of why he feels Martin and Gottfried Vagner qualify, and I'm inclined to agree with him. The rest I'd be inclined to axe.
3599 DrPsyche3rd Oct 2012 03:57:07 PM from Hawaii , Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
I'm going to Cut Kryb from Green Lantern: She's written as a subversion, and we only want straight examples. So far, I have heard no objections.

@Krystoff: you got an idea for a replacement image? When we talked about this a while back, someone mentioned Frollo barring a family into a mill with a torch in the frame.

edited 3rd Oct '12 4:42:21 PM by DrPsyche

Rest my child
Neath the tree
Like it's branches reach for me
The Chaotic Queen
I think we should cut Clubber Lang and Ivan Drago from Rocky. The entry simply lists them for killing one person each and not caring. Being a Hero Killer makes you dangerous, not monstrous. Besides, both killings were accidents, and disregard for life just makes you insensitive. Finally, the character page says Drago made a Heel–Face Turn, which I agree with. After Drago decides to fight for himself instead of for Russia, he shows honor that he didn't before. If anything, Ivan becomes more likable, not less.
(>^.^)> (>^.^<) <(^.^<) <(^.^)> v(^.^)^

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