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No otha class gonna do that!Now for Jak and Daxter:
edited 2nd Oct '12 9:01:48 AM by EarlOfSandvich
Status of possible Fallout RP idea: Fleshing out locations/factions. Home freaking run!
The 11th GroverOkay, having done a quick once-over of East of Eden (damn, I need to reread that; true classic of literature), Cathy's murder of her parents does happen on-screen in a flashback (death by arson). And she does part from her children's father by shooting him in the shoulder. That said, there is a rather dark moment early on where she's savagely beaten by a pimp (she works as a prostitute early), and she's later wracked by guilt when meeting her adult sons. So she has some elements of Jerkass Woobie, plus she has a legit Heel Realization and signs over her money to her surviving son (one dies during World War I) before committing suicide. So, I vote to cut. @3570 I missed the Millennium Trilogy examples - what post was that? @3572 I discussed her in @2115. Cut. Okay, finally taking full stock of the Monster.Disgaea page... Upon consideration, I actually think Vulcanus should be cut completely. On one hand, yes, he does suffer from Fantastic Racism and he is somewhere on the Knight Templar/Well-Intentioned Extremist spectrum. On the other, Strawman Has a Point - you run into many more demons who are various flavors of evil than Noble Demon or Punch Clock Villain types like Krichevskoy (and it takes all game for Laharl to get there, and that's the Golden Ending). Moreover, it's a bit understandable that he doesn't mind humans dying, when he knows full well that they'll be reincarnated and/or get to go to heaven if they're virtuous. I don't think he hits the "complete" part of the trope name. Mention of Nemo should be removed because, as it points out, he doesn't count. The false Overlord Zenon really doesn't show up much. Most of his deeds are Offscreen Villainy. Much more a generic Evil Overlord than anything else. Cut. Super Hero Aurum is the only one who I'd include. Unlike Vulcanus, it doesn't seem like he even cares about good versus evil - he's just a Blood Knight. And he deliberately kills a demon's father just so he can do a twisted take on Wife Husbandry - he raises Mao to become a brutal monster so that they can have a gargantuan duel. I would take the for him out of spoiler tags and put it into the sandbox, cutting the rest.
edited 2nd Oct '12 10:46:03 AM by 32_Footsteps
@ Chaotic Queen I agree with the removal of Chris Mc Lean. He is a Harmless Villain. @Dr Psyche I would also cut all those examples you mentioned. I don't think Narnia series had any complete monsters. EDIT: I just removed Jadis and Lady of the green kirtle from Literature page. Jadis was discussed long time ago already and we decided that she doesn't count. I also removed the line about Virgil Byrnes getting a karma, since we decided that the karma get has nothing to do with the character's status as a CM.
edited 2nd Oct '12 9:58:10 AM by Krystoff
I deleted Chris from YMMV.Total Drama Island. Krystoff, thank you for sending the request to delete him from Monster.Western Animation.
Thats okay. I wanted to do it for a very long time already. Another villain from Western Animation that I want to discuss;
No otha class gonna do that!I know the Fallout subpage has been reviewed pages ago, but as long as we're dealing with the Video Games subpage, I've taken another look:
edited 2nd Oct '12 11:48:33 AM by EarlOfSandvich
Status of possible Fallout RP idea: Fleshing out locations/factions. Home freaking run!
Dr. D. M. PsycheWhile, yes, I do think that's bad, it's not exactly CM material, also, Weblinks Aren't Examples, but the example explains why that the guy did was bad, without the need to click on the link, so I don't think this is a case of weblinks are not examples.
edited 2nd Oct '12 12:01:05 PM by DrPsyche
I would say no as well. He makes the cartoon scary, so I guess this is the reason why he is in the entry. This is perfect example of people thinking Nightmare Fuel = Complete Monster and we agreed many times already that it doesn't work this way (and if I recall correctly, it was often given as an excuse to add Discord).
I concur with the cutting of Jadis. Heck I'd concur with a hatchet job on most of the Narnia villains. They just aren't bad enough to count. I'd also support cutting the Wicked Witch of the West, since a) wanting to avenge your sister is understandable, and b) she's a fairly stereotypical fairy-tale witch. Assuming there's some consensus, I'll cut the literature examples I raised yesterday at some point this evening (I did the same thing yesterday for the examples raised the day before). @32 Footsteps The Millennium Trilogy was discussed at 3464. Only one other troper responded to the post, so I left them alone. Feel free to take a look yourself though.
Lola "Princess" Stone and her father, the torturers from "The Loved Ones" qualify. They show no remorse and lack any semblance of humanity. They kidnap and torture the main character because he didn't take Lola to prom, but it's not like he even bullied her or put her down in a particularly mean way, he just told her that he was going with his girlfriend, so they really don't even have the tiniest reason or excuse for their actions. They had been doing this for years before the film takes place, too; they didn't actually kill the boys they kidnapped, but instead gave them a Fate Worse than Death by drilling a hole in their head, causing them to become essentially brain-dead, and locking them in the cellar. I know pretty much all villains who appear in such "torture porn" horror movies qualify, but these two are particularly egregious examples.
A Wizard boyFrom the Wikipedia page, it looks like it qualifies. That said, the "before the film took place" stuff should be omitted since it's Offscreen Villainy.
@3581: I wouldn’t be too fussed if Myron or Salt-Upon-Wounds were cut, though during the mission Flight From Zion, we do actually see Salt-Upon-Wounds and his goons try to wipe out the peaceful Sorrows tribe who are only trying to evacuate Zion. Vulpes Inculta, however, I say keep. We see Nipton on fire and its population crucified and still alive, and Vulpes standing before it taking credit for all of it. We also see the NCR of Searchlight turned into feral ghouls and have to Mercy Kill most of them in a mission.
edited 2nd Oct '12 2:32:37 PM by OccasionalExister
@Septimus Heap: Sorry, I probably should've mentioned that the main character gets locked in the cellar with the other brain-dead victims during the film, and the few that were still alive had been eating either each other or other victims that were thrown in. Even though we don't see them get tortured, it's not just mentioned in passing, so I'm not sure that it counts as Off Screen Villainy.
edited 2nd Oct '12 2:38:25 PM by Camberf
The Chaotic QueenThis was under Monster.Cartoon Network:
edited 2nd Oct '12 9:26:17 PM by ChaoticQueen
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Dr. D. M. PsycheMoral Orel time Stopframe: No, his example isn't even an example, it even says so. Bloberta: She has some redeeming features, and even if she didn't, she fails in heinousity to Clay. Clay: What an asshole. Crimes: Shooting Orel in the knee, taking away any medicine, leaving both of them stuck in the woods for over a day, with Orel's bullet wound, and blames Orel for it (This was his Moral Event Horizon). He manipulated Doghy's lack of parental figures to have him outshine Orel, and threw Doughy away, furthur emotionally scarring him. Clay regularly beats Orel (Almost always played for laughs, but it is played seriously sometimes, not as abuse, but showing his psychological problems). Some episodes tend to portray Clay's problems as leaving him an emotionally distraught and pitiable person, namely, the episode where he was in a bar with the cop, the doctor, and the reverend. Ultimately, I'd say no, he doesn't count. NOTE: Orel's crimes were all played for laughs (No matter how tasteless the pregnancy thing was). Censordoll: Hard to decide, she's an evil, hypocritical matriarch, who brings the entire town under her sway, not in the name of the lord, but for her own power. Also, she apparently manipulated Clay, via voodoo, to shoot Orel. That last event was just something the creator apparently said was to be in an unproduced episode, the canonicity is doubtful and it shall not count towards her. She also seduces clay, using some freaky Oedipal attraction to his mother. In the end, she doesn't have enough definitive heinous actions under her belt (Damn you adult swim, for cutting this short).
edited 2nd Oct '12 11:29:59 PM by DrPsyche
Let's rumba!What about Guame? If I recall, the only thing keeping him in line is Lordgenome. Yeah, technically he has the same justification as Lordgenome (that being the Spiral Nemesis), but he looks like he's having tons of fun breaking Nia. But then, I haven't seen Gurren Lagann in a while...
So can you tell me what exactly does freedom mean, if I'm not free to be as twisted as I wanna be?
So, does anybody object to me requesting to cut Lawyer Goodwill?
Pronounced YAK-you-lussNah, he's just a bit dickish to The Cutie, and has served as Lordgenome's loyal pet/companion for milennia. Nowhere near the heinousness standard for this trope, and violates the 'no altruism/loved ones' criterion.
Freedom of speech includes the freedom for other people to call you out on your bullshit.
I editted and requested a lock be placed on The Elder Scrolls Complete Monster page. I support cutting Lawyer Goodwill. You're right, he's scary but a standard baddie, not a Complete Monster. If he has the same Well-Intentioned Extremist motives as his boss, he wouldn't count for this trope, even if he did act sadistically at one point. @3585: Sounds like they count. They do anything else?
edited 3rd Oct '12 9:22:19 AM by OccasionalExister
The 11th GroverOkay, first, going back to @3464... Oh, that might've been why I missed it - nearly the whole damn thing was spoilered. So that's got to go, regardless of anything else. Martin Vanger... I think it depends on just how many of those actions are shown on-screen. That's the only thing that looks to be in question. Gottfried Vanger... pretty much the same deal as his son. I need to know how much is on-screen. Nils Bjurman doesn't sound nearly as bad as either Vanger. Cut. Alexander Zalachenko... I'm inclined to cut, because he also doesn't sound as bad as the Vangers. Unless someone has an argument on why he should stay, I say cut. Dr. Peter Telebornian, once again, is a question of whether this is shown in a flashback or not. So I have two cuts, and three that are pending based on how much was actually shown in the course of the book or flashbacks. @3580 Seems like a generic Big Bad (but hey, worse than The Mad Doctor example that's still not only on Monster.Disney, but the trope picture as well). I think that anyone wanting to keep The Mad Doctor should want to keep Lwyer Goodwill. Of course, I vote to cut them both. @3581 For Myron, we can cut the part about the killings related to Jet, but he still looks like he qualifies. For Vulpes, the case is closer, but I'm leaning towards keeping as-is. For Salt-Upon-Wounds, it was presented as those actions happening in-game. If they did not, then he should be cut. @3585 I see someone is trying to get people playing the TV Tropes Drinking Game to have a drink. For the example itself, while I would discount the stuff that happened previous to the movie, the Wikipedia page for the movie does point out that they inject bleach into the guy's throat, and they attempt to lobotomize him by drilling a hole in his head and pouring boiling water down the hole (and attempts are what counts, not the fact that they failed at the "pour boiling water" part). Plus, the fact that they're shown to keep lobotomized men captive and starving in a basement dungeon is pretty bad. Also, Lola does kill two people (her mother and a cop), and tries to kill another (the main character's girlfriend) - her father is dead at this point, so those last couple of items don't count against him. That said, Lola Stone has a clear Electra Complex (she sees her father as her ideal man), and he loves his daughter (although I don't see any indication that he loved her in that way). Mind you, they apparently show this love by mutilating, lobotomizing, and killing others. I'm actually inclined to say that it's a twisted mockery of love and they should qualify. @3590 is an excellent rundown on why all of the Moral Orel examples should be cut. Terrible human beings one and all, but there's a huge Cycle Of Abuse thing that makes most of the characters Jerkass Woobie qualifiers (except for the few like Orel who skip the Jerkass and are just The Woobie). @3591: From the FAQ in the first post:
So, how do I suggest an example, either to be removed or to be added?: Just post the candidate and where they are from, along with your arguments for or against their inclusion. If few people have responded, bring it up again politely after a couple of days. We're busy folks; we sometimes miss things.Putting a Sink Hole for the series is not posting where they are from. If you can't be bothered to actually say the name of the series, I can't be bothered to consider your proposal. Don't forget, an argument for inclusion needs to look like it belongs on the page.
Actually, I have new thoughts on The Mad Doctor now. Even though, I admit that originally I nearly became a Single-Issue Wonk about him, I re-watched the cartoon again. Now, I think that the reason people (including me originally) label him as one (and even provide a page image) is because of his being so scary and whole cartoon being Nightmare Fuel. I would say that this is perfect example of Nightmare Fuel = Complete Monster, and we agreed that it doesn't work this way. He is disturbing because of his appearance, Evil Laugh, dancing skeletons, but in reality all he is, is simply a Mad Scientist who attempted to kill Mickey (which many other cartoon villains tried as well). So, now I vote to cut.
They're dogs, and they're playing poker!Ehh Okonogi from Monster.Higurashi didn't he compliment the club members on how they beat him? My memory of the anime isn't that good so correct me if I'm wrong if he had any redeemable factors. And I also have a question on Offstage Villainy. I know it doesn't qualify for a complete monster, but does it count if it was mentioned in passing or if the villain mentions in horrifying detail about their previous crimes, and can villains count as monsters if their actions weren't shown just because they would be too brutal for the viewer to watch? For example, Shan-Yu from Mulan is regared as a monster on the Disney list, yet his actions weren't shown to the viewers. The only thing that you see is the aftermath in which a village was destroyed and a doll was found without an owner implying that the owner was most likely killed. Nor was one of the Huns shown shooting one of the messengers with an arrow. Though, clear up to me why Offstage Villainy does not equal a Complete Monster.
Keep calm, and let it go.
Offstage Villainy implies that the audience is shielded from the villainy. That's not the case with Shan-Yu. He says he'll kill everyone in that village, and we see the aftermath. He orders the archer to kill a man, and the archer fires. The cause and effect is obvious in that case; it's more Gory Discretion Shot than Offstage Villainy (we don't see the blood and guts, but we certainly see the evil). It also helps that in his case, he's part of the Disney Animated Canon, which is not the darkest canon around. @32 Footsteps: That makes three votes to cut Bjurman and Zalachenko. I'll axe them tonight. At 3489 Occasional Exister gives a pretty good summation of why he feels Martin and Gottfried Vagner qualify, and I'm inclined to agree with him. The rest I'd be inclined to axe.
Dr. D. M. PsycheI'm going to Cut Kryb from Green Lantern: She's written as a subversion, and we only want straight examples. So far, I have heard no objections. @Krystoff: you got an idea for a replacement image? When we talked about this a while back, someone mentioned Frollo barring a family into a mill with a torch in the frame.
edited 3rd Oct '12 4:42:21 PM by DrPsyche
The Chaotic QueenI think we should cut Clubber Lang and Ivan Drago from Rocky. The entry simply lists them for killing one person each and not caring. Being a Hero Killer makes you dangerous, not monstrous. Besides, both killings were accidents, and disregard for life just makes you insensitive. Finally, the character page says Drago made a Heel-Face Turn, which I agree with. After Drago decides to fight for himself instead of for Russia, he shows honor that he didn't before. If anything, Ivan becomes more likable, not less.
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