During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. " to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
- Frances Deerborne from "Family Planning" murders her husband John's rich family, from his parents down to his younger sister, his kid brother, and the housekeeper, to ensure that he greed receives his inheritance. She also hired a man to rob them first, pretending to be in love with him, and killed him afterward. It is suggested that she intends to kill John later and Make It Look Like an Accident.
So I finished the novel version of Goldfinger. Great book. Full of Values Dissonance, but great. I'd like to propose the book version of, naturally, Auric Goldfinger himself. The movie changed very little about him, mostly just his plan (he wanted to rob Fort Knox in the book, which was changed to destroying it to drive up gold prices and make himself richer), but everything else is there. The attempted murder of 60,000 people, killing his own men left and right, trying to saw Bond in half, all the same. There's a scene that's not in the movie, too, where he threatens to have Bond's ally Tilly Masterton killed, cooked, and fed to Oddjob (who is way darker in the book) if he doesn't talk. My only concern would be stacking with Drax.
Thoughts?
edited 3rd Sep '14 2:35:42 PM by HamburgerTime
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."Do we usually have separate entries for both the source material and its adaptation. I mean, we don't have separate ones for Film!Voldemort and Film!Ratched.
I was wondering about that; we have film!Drax and book!Drax, but they border on completely different characters.
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."What season is Frances from?
Ratched is in both Film and Lit though. BTW, I HATE how Bond got out of the laser in Goldfinger.
to Book!Goldfinger (although the two seem similar enough that we MAY be able to just combine them). BTW, please remind me, why did Auric wanna poison the town? To get them out of the way?
edited 3rd Sep '14 3:24:13 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM DraftsI've read the book. Goldfinger stacks up well. Big yes here.
I should note btw that Oddjob is paid entirely in cats from Goldfinger (he eats them). Bond has an internal monologue about how Koreans are the most treacherous and evil people on the planet. Oh, Ian Fleming...
They both have the exact same entries. Even the one under Literature mentions the film.
I'd propose Oddjob too (as mentioned he's worse in the book) except I get the impression he'd stop breathing if Goldfinger asked him. Which was pretty much on the agenda in the movie, though not the book.
edited 3rd Sep '14 3:49:47 PM by HamburgerTime
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."We could leave the writeup for Ratched like it is, and we could take the part out about the film for the literature entry.
Oh lord. Almost seems like Fleming's approaching Sword Of Truth territory.
edited 3rd Sep '14 3:52:56 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM DraftsI find all the Values Dissonance fascinating more than offensive, really. It made me really think about what life in the '50s was like and how people thought then.
And hey, at least Fleming had the decency to make his stereotypical bad guys... actual bad guys. The heroes from Sword of Truth apparently kill their way through a group of peaceful protesters the villain was using as a human shield...
edited 3rd Sep '14 3:57:40 PM by HamburgerTime
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."Anyway, however cringeworthy Fleming's "ethnic" villains are, we're not discussing them, but Goldfinger. We have three for him so far, and as usual I want a five-point lead before I write him up.
edited 3rd Sep '14 4:28:10 PM by HamburgerTime
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."I think ACW was talking more about monster count than anything to do with Values Dissonance.
As for the actual question, I'm in the "do there really need to be two entries if the character is essentially the same?" camp. He sounds like a fit, but he also sounds like he's largely the same as the movie version.
edited 3rd Sep '14 4:43:35 PM by nrjxll
There're enough differences that it's an entirely different universe and character, IMO. The Bond books are incredibly distinct from their movie counterparts
Goldfinger has my
Now I'd also like to bring up these two villains from The Vampire Diaries and The Originals respectively. Markos from The Vampire Diaries and Monique Deveraux from The Originals. Truth be told I was hesitant to bring them up because Markos seemed generic and Monique had a Freudian Excuse, and both shows having Black-and-Grey Morality but after seeing some CM's with such credentials I thought I'd give it a go.
Here's my what I got for Markos.
Who is he and what has done ?
Markos is the Big Bad of season five, and the leader of The Travelers, a sub culture of witches, that where under a curse to keep them from practicing traditional magic and from gathering and settling into a tribe, because two former Travelers - Silas and Quetsiyah created the immortality spell. Centuries before the series, Markos casted a spell so that descendants of Silas and his lover Amara, would be their doppelgangers to end up together so the Travelers can cast a spell to undo the curse, and later undo every curse that every witch has casted - which includes the creation of vampires, and the existence of the Other Side, which is a storage afterlife of sorts for the supernatural. Late in the season, the Travelers summons Markos from the other side, and the result causes the other side to begin to fall apart. Markos also plans on taking over the town of Mystic Falls by having the Travelers possess the towns population. When one of the characters, Tyler is possessed by a traveler named Julian, Markos has Tyler/Julian chained up and has one of his minions named Sloane drink Tyler's blood and become a vampire, and drink the doppelgangers blood causing her to become human and die, demonstrating what will happen to all vampires after the ritual is complete. Markos has Stefan and Elena abducted and tortured for their doppelganger blood and later leads the Travelers in a ritual to possess the towns people of Mystic Falls. In the season finale, he has Tyler/Julian thrown out of the barrier of their spell to kill him and when he suspects Damon's plan to have him killed, he has Sheriff Elizabeth Forbes stay with him in the Mystic Grill before it is kamakazied by Damon and Elena, and as he dies, he pins the sheriff down as a Taking You with Me. After his death, he attempts to resurrect himself by forcibly passing through Bonnie before the Other Side is completely destroyed.
Does he have Redeeming Qualities or a Freudian Excuse ?
The way I see it, he can either be seen as a CM or GDV, but only because they don't explore his personal history or motives. He pretty much represents the threat of the Travelers, but has his own but very little personality - Faux Affably Evil, he's a torturer, and has a We Have Reserves attitude, he isn't shown to be sadistic but also has a no nonsense attitude. Because Markos personal history isn't explored, he isn't given a Freudian Excuse, and is shown to have redeeming qualities.
And now for Monique Deveraux.
Who is Monique and what has she done ?
Monique is a teenage girl in the witch community. Shortly before the series, Monique and her friends where part of a Harvest Ritual, to give the witches a boast of power. The ritual involves the sacrifice of four teenage witches, followed by their resurrection. The ritual was interupted by the vampire Marcel, who was tipped of by Monique's aunt Sophie. Only a girl named Davina was saved, but Sophie was later convinced she was wrong and in the early episodes of the series, Sophie tries to have Davina killed to complete the ritual to resurrect Monique. After she succeeds and Monique comes back, Monique repays her aunt by killing her, showing no remorse for it and calling her a casualty of war. Monique would later serve as The Dragon to the witches leader Celeste, and after Celeste dies, Monique becomes Dragon-in-Chief to their new leader Genevieve. After Davina is resurrected, Monique simply bullies her and treats her as the black sheep of the witches and gets the others to do the same. Monique also convinces Genevieve that she needs to be sacrificed to please the anscestors, but puts off on it when Genevieve needed to find Esther's grimoire. Monique finally attempts to kill Genevieve after vampires attack a feast in the witches honor, and only stops when Monique receives an order from the ancestors to kill Klaus and Hayley's unborn baby. Later she stalks Hayley around casting a spell to kill her in an attempt to make her miscarry. Later, when Hayley goes into labor, Monique and the other witches watch over her and Monique tells her they will her baby and there is nothing she and Klaus can do about it. Not a minute after the baby is born, Monique slits Hayley's throat (of course Hayley is saved when Klaus turns her into a vampire/werewolf hybrid). While preparing the ritual to kill the baby, Monique talks to another Harvest girl about usurping Genevieve and when facing defeat, Monique attempts to kill the baby herself.
Does she have a Fruedian Excuse or redeeming qualities ?
Yes on the excuse, but the redeeming qualities are iffy. As mentioned, she was one of the Harvest girls and from what we know about her past she Used to Be a Sweet Kid, however her past before her death and resurrection isn't explored. It is also mentioned that during her first death the Anscestors corrupted her into the sociopath she has become. While being killed in a ritual sacrifice is pretty horrible, I for one think being talked into being evil is a pretty pathetic excuse for being evil. After her resurrection, her redeeming qualities are down the drain. She's become cold, apathetic, sadistic and sociopathic. She is unshaken by her actions and always justifying herself. Whatever innocent girl she was in her first life, is long gone. It should be noted that the other resurrected harvest girls haven't turned as crazy or evil as Monique, and at worst are her Girl Posse. The closest she has to a redeeming quality is blind religious loyalty to the anscestors.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."Someone mentioned Harry Potter...should we have a link to that subpage from the Film page as well as the Lit page?
So would this work for Book!Ratched?
- One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest: While initially appearing as a caring figure, Nurse Ratched is anything but. She would remorselessly and cruelly manipulate anyone to keep her control over the virtually harmless mental patients all while maintaining her motherly image to her superiors and the outsiders to the mental institution. She then goes over the line when she convinces Billy that she'll tell his mother all about his "bad behavior," knowing full well what effect that would have on his mental health; he commits suicide. Nurse Ratched was also one of the employees who gave McMurphya lobotomy; he was later put out of his misery by Bromden.
edited 4th Sep '14 12:06:54 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM DraftsYeah, um... how about this?
- One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest: While she maintains a motherly image for her superiors and visitors to the mental hospital, Nurse Ratched is a remorseless, cruel, and manipulative woman who is only interested in maintaining and abusing her power over the largely harmless patients. Her worst acts include intentionally driving a patient to suicide and lobotomizing Mc Murphy for resisting her authority.
If you wanna condense...Anime And Manga Subpages.
That writeup's almost TOO condensed. BTW, replying to myself, I like the idea of the Harry Potter index on the film page.
edited 4th Sep '14 6:13:10 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM DraftsI think Lightysnake made a condensed writeup on Kurata.
I'm not sure about adding the Harry Potter index to the film page because the films where just adaptions of the books, but if we are putting it there, should we also add the Stephen King index to the film page too ?
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."Hmmm...interesting point. I'll look for the Kurata.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM DraftsI'm kind of against Ratched qualifying. She didn't intend for Billy to commit suicide so the only thing she's done is lobotomizing McMurphy, which is a Moral Event Horizon crossing but not CM worthy by itself.
Luther and Frances sound more likely to be from me, but I'm not so sure about Luther's nephew. His entry might need a rewrite.
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