During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
on Harry. Hell, the bad guy in Kazaam actually killed the main kid and tried to take control of his genie but he doesn't count.
I guess I see the point. Kevin could have killed Harry multiple times, that does not justify the attempted murder but it does give him a decent reason. Killing the pigeon lady would not have been self defense considering that she was trying to save Kevin, but considering she had bird food and they were surrounded by pigeons, she was still a threat to him. Under normal circumstances, trying to kill a child and an old lady might be enough, but Kevin put Harry through a ton of pain, and the pigeon lady was a threat to him. Finally, while steeling money from a childrens charity on Christmas eve is fairly evil, it's not quite enough for this trope.
jjj
A total has-been.
OK, Harry from 'Home Alone? HELL NO. I vaguely recall plans for a third film in which he and Marv both would be redeemed. And in the two films we have him in, he's very standard crook level villainy aside from what got mentioned.
edited 1st Sep '14 6:47:21 PM by AnewMan
I have a better candidate: Mother Russia from Kick Ass. I haven't read the comics, but I saw the films and I've read about the comics. The motherfucker was removed for making a Heel–Face Turn, but from what I understand, she's worse than him and does not have any redemption. From what I read on the Kick Ass wiki, she has the highest bodycount in the comics aside from Hit Girl.
jjj
So...you haven't read it? Why are you even proposing it?
Because I saw the films it was based on and I did research on the comics.
jjj
It's probably been expressed to its limit, but to Harry.
Also, I'd like to briefly bring up Randy again due to the same reasons we decided against Carl's father. By logic, Jeff would surpass Randy in heinousness by the virtue of mass murder, including his entire family which puts him heads above Randy. Randy didn't choose to mentally break Jeff. He's an Unwitting Instigator of Doom for a reason. Taking that out, what about his actions just on his own? Something tells me he's much above just an average bully, but he doesn't have more than a body on his count, he doesn't rape, graphically torture, mutilate, or kill, and compared to so many other Creepypastas, I kinda feel he falls flat. I consider him around the level of a Stephen King bully.
...That said, while I don't consider him one at the moment, his actions standing alone still make him a colossal dick at best. Does his villainy stand out? Is he an extreme Jerkass, or borderline Complete Monster?
edited 1st Sep '14 9:45:24 PM by Scraggle
Reading that, I'd agree Randy doesn't count.
Btw, reading the Otherland character page. Under Dread's entry it says he has an Even Evil Has Standards moment where he regrets demolishing Toy Land because he despises pedophiles and worries that he might be crossing a line. This true? I haven't read the books yet.
edited 1st Sep '14 8:35:24 PM by OccasionalExister
Going to agree with the "no" vote on Harry. Also, was wondering when somebody would bring up Honest Action. In any case, most of those traps that Kevin ran Harry and Marv through are crippling at best and life-threatening at worst. He also seems to have an actual friendship with Marv, which would disqualify him even if he did push into genuinely heinous territory.
Lizzid people!
Yeah, I'd have to say to Randy as well. I'll go request it on the Edit Requests Page.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Randy mugs kids, thretans them with knives, lies to the police to get Jeff's brother arrested, assaults Jeff at a birthday party to try and kill him, thretans to shoot the other kids and their parents if they try to interfere, smashes a bottle of alchoel over jeff's head, stabs him in the shouldere, and repeatedly kicks him in the face. The original story only has Jeff killing three people: his parents and his brother, we are told Jeff killed others, but that's Offscreen Villainy. Jeff is insane, and has a Freudian Excuse.
Lizzid people!
Well, yeah that is true. Randy did at least threaten to murder everyone at the birthday party if they tried any silly business (and also threatened other children with knives), and Jeff did have a Freudian Excuse, albeit a rather ridiculous one, but there's also the fact that he also murdered his entire family. After this, however, we never see him in the act of killing someone, we just see headlines on newspapers stating that a psychotic serial killer was on the loose. What is your stand on this?
edited 1st Sep '14 9:04:30 PM by AustinDR
I actually want to know where everyone else stands on this.
Lizzid people!
That's what I meant.
The headlines sound loosely like Offscreen Villainy, so I'm not really sure where to go with this.
Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.
Lets compare:
Randy: * mugs Jeff and Liu ad threatens them with knives.
- lies to the police to get Liu arrested.
- assaults Jeff at a party and tries to kill him.
- has Troy and Keith pull out guns and threaten to shoot anyone who tries to interfere.
- breaks a bottle over Jeffs head, stabs him in the shouldure, and repeatedly kicks him in the face, all the while telling him how bad a brother he is for letting Randy Keith and Troy get away with sending his brother to juvi and not putting up a fight to avenge him.
Jeff: Kills his family. Is also stated to have killed others but that's Offscreen Villainy. He also killed Randy Keith and Troy but that was self defense.
jjjI don't remember self-defence qualifying a character for CM status per say, unless it goes into a serious case of Disproportionate Retribution. Then again, I am a semi-regular/irregular poster here, so I've probably missed a few cases.
Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.
Lizzid people!
What really seals the deal for me regarding this character, is that he was absolutely willing to slaughter everyone at the birthday party if they tried to interfere in his attempting to beat Jeff to death. If given the chance to become a Serial Killer himself, I'm quite sure that he may not only take the role as one, but he may have been even worse than Jeff himself, because he's quite clearly not insane. Add on to the fact that he mugs children at the bus stop and threatens to torture them with knives, Randy's ultimately a few steps above being a stereotypical bully. He may count after all, but I'll let the others have their say with this character.
You keep dealing in hypotheticals here—"might have been", etc. CM candidates are not qualified on the basis of hypotheticals. Since his main "victim" has a higher bodycount I say no, no, and again, no.
edited 2nd Sep '14 6:40:33 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Lizzid people!
Again,I wasn't stating that he counts, I'm saying that he might've counted, if Jeff didn't have a higher body count than him (or attempted body count in this case). Those are two completely different things.
edited 2nd Sep '14 11:23:25 AM by AustinDR
I already gave my opinion on Randy, but to save back tracking: I do not think he can count. Jeff may not count for other reason, but he does set the standard and the standard is serial murder. Randy is not as bad as a serial killer and therefore does not count.
ETA: I do wonder how much we are counting general Jeff the Killer "lore". I mean, normally only "canon" works count when considering CM status, but the nature of creepypastas is for them to imitate urban legends, which would be shaped by the communities that tell them rather rather than one original source. IDK, just a thought.
edited 2nd Sep '14 12:10:55 PM by rexpensive
Lizzid people!
He's already cut now, so I don't really see why we're still discussing him.
May as well have a record of where everyone stands if he gets brought up again. I mean I voted no but I am not immune to further arguments if someone has further information.
Lizzid people!
Still don't entirely understand, though.
