Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

That seems familiar. Wasn't there another monster (in some other work) that we were discussing if that disqualified him or not?

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

@Witchoftheabsolute: Are you absolutely sure that Kuzakawa is a CM? I'm asking this, because Occassional Exister has given some interesting points of Kuzakawa having a Pet the Dog moment in the form of turning his daughter into a human. Did he actually love his daughter, or does this moment serve no purpose, since Kuzakawa was planning on eradicating the human race anyway? And if he is indeed a CM, I made a writeup for him.

Also, pretty much everyone already said this, but Mayu's father cannot be a CM, because he is simply overshadowed by the other antagonists. You see, rape, while bad in and of itself, it doesn't automatically make someone a CM. It just means that they're remorselessly evil at that point. It's the same thing with murder. Just committing a single murder doesn't mean that the person involved with said murder is a CM. It only means that they had crossed a point of no return, unless they redeem themselves. However, if they had continued raping or killing, then they might turn into C Ms.

Child abuse also doesn't ensure that the person involved is a monster. In some cases, some antagonists don't count in extremely dark stories if their only crime was child abuse. However, in some cases, a villain can count as a CM if they are especially brutal in the treatment towards their children. For example, in Higurashi, there is evidence that Teppei molested his own niece in order to keep her in line, and that he also uses her as furniture. In his case, Teppei is a solid CM, because of how brutal he is to his own niece, and that he also managed to murder another character as well.

Overall, this is what I have to say regarding Mayu's father.

edited 31st Jul '14 12:46:01 PM by AustinDR

From Oddworld

• Complete Monster: Sekto. He hunted the Steef race for sport, causing them to become endangered. To add insult to injury, he's using one of the last remaining Steef as a host body.

I cut because it was too short.

Too short yes, but a possible candidate.

edited 31st Jul '14 1:41:00 PM by ACW

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

@28337 Volthoom's dead, killed by Nekron himself. His power ring searches for another wielder.

I'd vote no on Sekto. Wiping out the Steefs is Offscreen Villainy, plus, it's really, really hard to meet the heinous standard in Oddworld, because every villainous character essentially industrializes genocide for profit. Mullock and his cohorts planned on selling their entire Mudokon slave force as food, the Vykker scientists wiped out all the Gabbits except for Munch, and Sekto wiped out all the Steefs except for Stranger. It's kind of a recurring theme of the games in order to showcase how bad it is to exploit the environment and other species.

edited 31st Jul '14 1:53:42 PM by OccasionalExister

Another possibly addition for the Pony POV Series verse: the Changeling's Mad Doctor Professor Kabuto:

In this universe the Changelings are more misguided than outright evil, being driven by a misguided belief that they have to steal love to survive (which is false, they're perfectly capable of living off SHARED love). Not Kabuto. Kabuto is a Mad Scientist of the highest order, Kabuto takes sadistic glee in his horrible medical experiments. During his entire interaction with the Mane Cast, he talks about the experiments he has in store for them once they have outlived their usefulness to Queen Chrysalis (all of which seem torn straight from Pages Of Harmony).

During his confrontation with Misfit Actual, he reveals he's heavily altered himself, doing such things as implanting a set of spider-like legs in his back. This is relevant because he perfected the procedures he's performed on himself on innocent ponies, griffins, and other 'cattle' species, but also his own kind, killing countless innocents without an ounce of remorse. In fact his habit of experimenting on his own people is so pronounced that he's only tolerated for his brilliance, and half the Changeling hive wants to kill him while the other half is scared to death of him. And any who tries to kill him and fails becomes another one of his 'lab rats'.

During his conversation with Misfit prior to their fight, he not only tells them what he intends to do to them once he gets the chance, including attempting to vivisect Running Gag's throat with one of his spider legs for the simple act of insulting him.

Kabuto views everycreature other than himself as nothing more than a potential test subject, refusing to address anyone by name, simply calling them their species and a number.

The capper? Chrysalis' end game plan is to rip the emotions out of all of Equestria to become a god, leaving the entire country emotionless husks. Kabuto is the only Changeling aware of this plan's true purpose and willingly does the number crunching and scientific work to make it possible. While Chrysalis ultimately has redeeming qualities and isn't opposed to restoring ponies afterwards, Kabuto's only concern when he has a Superpower Meltdown and is mode locked into an Earth Pony is that he'll be caught in the rune if activated as well due to it rather than the Equestrians.

After being defeated, Misfit has to actually protect Kabuto so he can face justice because all their other Changeling captives want to kill him on the spot (the one giving focus having lost her brother to him).

Ultimately, Kabuto is such a monster, Princess (now Queen) Cadence (who took over the Changelings from Chrysalis), while subscribing to Thou Shall Not Kill, condemns Kabuto to be imprisoned in the sun, fully aware and feeling everything for all the years his victims would have lived if he hadn't killed them. The length of his imprisonment is implied to be centuries long due to how many innocent creatures this psychopath has killed throughout his life.

This means out of all the Changelings, Kabuto is the only one deemed horrific enough in universe to warrant a Fate Worse than Death.

Another Pony POV example? I'm starting to think we should set some boundaries with that series. And revise some of the entries.

@ Xavius: That was the Pre-Crisis version, I believe. The Post-Crisis version is very recent and is the ultimate Big Bad of Johns's run, a gobsmackingly powerful Reality Warper who is apparently the source of the Rings' power.

The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."

I think a part of it is the Pony POV Series has multiple timelines (Dark World and the main world) which have different Heinous Standards (as Dark World is a Bad Future and most of the villains either don't exist in the main timeline or never turned evil there) and almost none of the main villains are from the same faction due to it's season based structure.

The Changelings have nothing to do with Discord, who has nothing to do with Makarov who has nothing to do with the changelings.

Well, technically they're BIOLOGICALLY related (Chrysalis and Makarov are 'brother and sister' so to speak and their 'mother' Pandora is Discord's sister) but are not a part of the same faction or teamed up in any way.

edited 31st Jul '14 2:21:31 PM by RenegadeHero

We need to do something about the YMMV.Pony POV Series. Look at what's under there:

• Complete Monster:
  • Discord.
    • Not only did he do the canon stuff, the canon stuff is portrayed as Mind Rape and what he does to Trixie is just… brutal. On top of that, he's also responsible for at least three genocides, neither of which he really seems to give a darn about.
    • Word of God refers to Discord as an "egotistical, sadistic hedonist". That probably tells you a good bit of how monstrous this guy is.
    • It doesn't help that Discord's Mind Rape is actually described almost as if it's real rape, including one of the Wonderbolts stating she feels "violated" by what he did to her. And Discord does this for fun!
    • As bad as he is in the main timeline, he is even worse in the Bad Future Epilogue timeline, reviving the dead to feed on the living, having ponies mass executed for using magic, and letting Angry Pie and Fluttercruel go out and kill anypony they want, are pretty much the least to worry about. Probably the worst things are what he did to Derpy (turn her daughter Dinky into a muffin, and put a curse on her so that in order to turn her back to normal, Derpy would have to do a bunch of laps around his castle, while being attacked by hungry birds who wanted to eat Dinky, even after a thousand years of doing laps around the castle, she still had eight quadrillion left, and then she would have to repeat the process for her other daughter, Sparkler) and Fluttershy (trap her in her own body, and doom her to spend eternity being tortured by Fluttercruel, and being forced to watch all of her atrocities).
    • In Applejack's reharmonization chapter, we see several bad things he did to ponies, like turning Silver Spoon into tin foil, putting her eyes on her glasses, and making her father try to behead her, he also turns Blueblood into an ice sculpture of a mare and sends a stallion made of solar flames after her to rape her to death.
    • To sum up, as opposed to the more canonical view of him being a more malicious Equestrian Loki, this universe has him portrayed as a more whimsical Equestrian Satan. In fact, the actual Equestrian Satan was his Evil Mentor!
  • Reharmonised Angry Pie. Unlike the Dark world Angry Pie, this version has no redeeming qualities. She goes on a rampage killing all of Pinkamena's friends, and tries to kill and absorb the other Pinkies into her body so she can take over and become the true Pinkie. After taking over, she plans to kill all of Pinkie's friends in the real world. There is a strong implication that she actually likes killing, in fact, the audio adaptation even gives her a Slasher Smile.
  • Loneliness:
    • She gleefully uses images of Trixie's own mother to Mind Rape her into catatonia, and tries to outright murder her and Twilight several times.
    • While Loneliness seems to love Trixie, Word of God intentionally left it vague as to if it was genuine or if she's like the Other Mother and just manipulating her cruelly to get what she wants.
  • Grogar is implied to be one as well, being compared to Darkseid by Word of God as well as that ponies had trouble deciding which one was worse when he and Discord fought one another. Word of God even says that had he won, his rule would have been every bit as bad as Discord's. We finaly get to see him in action in the Seven Dreams/Nightmares timeline, and he more than lives up to all the build up, he uses the rainbow fragment to move his base to earth, and removes his weakness to the belle. In his fight against Patch, Grogar gives her several third degree burns and a permanent limp that she keeps for the rest of her life. Grogar is shown to be incredibly cruel, and unlike Discord, he is played completely seriously.
  • The Pegasus Despot from Patch's chapter of Seven Dreams/Nightmares, who uses the Blue Shard of the Rainbow of Light (Laughter) to rule a city as an Evil Overlord. But that's not what makes him this. He uses the shard to brainwash mares, including Patch, into allowing him to repeatedly rape them. Some of them apparently rejected him before (given he was a fat nerd, it's not hard to see why), but some were simply innocent ponies who'd done nothing but caught his eyes. His Karmic Death was very satisfying.
  • The Valeyard. We only get glimpses of him for most of Dark World, but then he gets some focus when the Elements of Harmony storm the castle, and we see just how much of a monster he really is. He repeatedly killed the Master just for fun, and willingly and gleefully helps Discord with all his evil actions, while planning to one day steal his power and take over the universe, all to feed his god complex. What's worse is that, while even Discord has his care for Fluttercruel as a (somewhat) redeeming factor, the only joy the Valeyard gets out of his memories of his loved ones is remembering the times when they screamed and suffered. In his fight with the heroes, he tries to make Twilight evil again, reveals that he is NOT discorded, mocks Derpy for her plight, and uses several other cheap shots and dirty tricks. Aside from fighting dirty, he also uses Cold-Blooded Torture on the heroes at several points, with probably the worst moment being when he uses sonic screwdrivers on them. Fitting, as the Valeyard was stated in the series itself to be the personification of all the Doctor's evil and negative qualities.
  • The Nameless Passenger is quickly starting to become one as well, what with rooting Twilight on during her brutal No-Holds-Barred Beatdown of Angry Pie and trying to get Twilight to murder a completely innocent sea pony in cold blood just For the Evulz. It has even been said by Shady that The Nameless Passenger is WORSE than Discord (and so far, everyone seems to agree, including Discord himself). To top it all off, she plans to erase the Dark world timeline from existence and kill all the inhabitants in the process. She later reveals that she's done this enough times to add up to several hundred million years and doesn't feel one ounce of guilt for it.
    • She manages to be the Knight of Cerebus for Dark World, nuff said.
  • Makarov from the Shining Armor Arc, goes around eating others just to increase his power. He also trapped four other ponies in an And I Must Scream fate, killed his parents, launches an attack on a village to try and kill everyone, and causes a war leading to the deaths of thousands if not millions of innocents. The reason? To make himself look like a hero.
  • Kabuto, full stop. This changeling Mad Scientist is so horrible (even by THEIR standards) that half the changelings outright hate him, and the other half fears him. Except for Chrysalis, he never refers to anyone, even other changelings, by their name, only their species and a number, or in the case of the Bearers, their Element. He seems to take changeling Fantastic Racism Up To Eleven, viewing even other changelings, save his Queen (and considering how he augmented Coccoon, maybe even her to a limited extent), only as potential test subjects, and causally talking about the gruesome experiments he'd like to perform on them. In fact, even Chrysalis doesn't like him, and is only tolerating him so he can help in the invasion, and Digger Wasp had orders to kill him once the invasion was complete.

@ ACW: I'm just double-checking.

@ Lightysnake: Gotcha. In addition, I presume this is Flagg himself who makes this claim? If so, there are also Unreliable Narrator issues with that Freudian Excuse.

Alright, I cut the previous list of bad examples, submitted Moorkus Rex, asked the Metaspace writer to come in, and will rewrite Mindmistress soon. The "Nazi Verbish" guy suffers from Offstage Villainy due the very low production values of those web videos, so I cut him as well.

Found some more examples, plus two unauthorized re-adds.

---

Nightmare House

• Complete Monster: Doctor Romero really doesn't care about whom he harms with his experiments, and does so while cheerfully making Portal references. Seeing him get smashed around the room by the ghost of his wife is utterly satisfying.

Big Bad from a Half-Life 2 mod. He could count, but at the very least needs a rewrite focusing more on his crimes. However, the main page contains this:

• Ambiguously Evil: One could argue the point of whether or not Romero is really, truly evil. There's no proof that he did anything to Emily, and most of his actions were in self defense.
  • Faux Affably Evil: At the final fight however Romero reveals himself to be basically outright evil as he brags about being able to control free will, couldn't care less about the the destruction caused by The Core and brags about murdering a SWAT team, all while gleefully talking about your inevitable death.

He sounds awful, but there does seem to be some disagreement about how evil and/or justified his actions really are.

---

Nosfera

• Complete Monster: Bram made dozens of women into his mind-controled sex slaves and planned to do it to his own wife, the title character

After going through the comic, I don't think this one counts for several reasons. First, this is mentioned to be standard behavior for vampire lords. Second, most of this comic is played for laughs. As a result there is some serious Moral Dissonance involved with the wife in question, who takes up Bram's position after he dies in the opening, eating a whole bunch of people without remorse and turning victims into undead zombie slaves, all of which is treated humorously.

---

Noughts & Crosses

• Complete Monster: Possibly Jude. Arguably a much more developed example than normal for this trope, as his moral descent is detailed and believable, and it is shown that he does still have some affection for certain people, though it does little to stop his increasingly evil acts. While he remains a Well-Intentioned Extremist for most of his life, few could argue that his deliberately convincing his teenaged niece to become a suicide bomber is excusable by any standards.

First two red flags: "Arguable" example and well-intentioned extremism. Then there's this on the main page.

• Save the Villain: Sephy to Jude, so she can help his mother, Meggie.
• Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds: JUDE.

Cut unless they can explain why this is not a tragic/sympathetic villain.

---

Orphan Black

• Complete Monster: Daniel Rosen probably qualifies after 2:3, in which he cold-bloodedly murders an innocent small-town cop and then tortures Sarah by cutting her face up with a razor. Most audience members were probably happy when Helena interrupts the torture by killing him.

I'll say keep and rewrite. Does someone want to elaborate on whether this Psycho for Hire isn't overshadowed by other villains?

---

Also, both Outlast and Paranormal Activity had examples added back after cuts. I'll add a note for the former, but the grandmother from Activity was deemed a keep. Can someone who’s familiar with those films do a better write-up on the grandmother?

edited 31st Jul '14 3:03:01 PM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"

I concur. The entries on the actual page for Fan Works could use some work. For example, Marakov needs to be cut down a serious bit and Discord needs to be condensed into one entry, etc.

I think the YMMV page is SERIOUSLY out of date.

Also, with Discord, remember there are TWO Discords in this fic, the main one and the Dark World one, who exist independent of one another.

Dark World ultimately isn't this trope because he turned good, but light world is still every bit the monster he always was.

(sigh) So... many... fucking pony examples.

• Discord: The Dark World one is disqualified because he turns good, according to Renegade Hero, so he's a cut. I would like to know what the crimes of Light World Discord are before deciding one way or the other on him. Even then he might not count if he only does his crimes from the show and it's true he cares about Fluttercruel.
• Reharmonized Angry Pie: Cut for not being heinous enough in this Crapsack World.
• Loneliness: Cut for having an ambiguous redeeming quality.
• Grogar: Cut because his crimes sound less heinous than Discord's.
• The Pegasus Despot: Keep.
• The Valeyard: As the personification of all the Doctor's evil and negative qualities, he sounds Made of Evil, making his moral agency questionable, so cut.
• The Nameless Passenger: Keep.
• Makarov: Keep.
• Kabuto: Keep.

@28349:

• Doctor Romero: Cut until someone can verify his deeds.
• Nosfera: Cut for failing the heinous standard and the Black Comedy nature of the series.
• Jude: Cut for being a Well-Intentioned Extremist.
• Daniel Rosen: Cut for not being heinous enough.

edited 31st Jul '14 3:11:39 PM by OccasionalExister

Edit: Nevermind.

edited 31st Jul '14 3:12:08 PM by nrjxll

...didn't we already go through all the Pony POV examples? I know we at least discussed Marakov before.

I have not and likely never will get this freaking Pony craze.

The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."

I think Daniel should be cut (I believe but am not certain I mentioned him here before).

I think he's quite easily overshadowed in heinousness. Among other things the character Helena was raised in an abusive religious cult and subjected to physical and implied sexual abuse. Prior to her season 2 Heel–Face Turn, Helena herself is fairly heinous, being a mission-directed Serial Killer murdering her fellow clones as well as her foster-mother for semi-understandable reasons (the foster mother gave her to a church orphanage, in no way expecting what ended up happening to her). While I very much sympathize with Helena, and she's hilarious, she's pretty Easily Forgiven after being a remorseless murderer in the previous season.

I also feel like while it isn't clear, Daniel may have affection for his higher up Rachel (she does for him- which obviously is not disqualifying for him). From my interpretation of it, besides being pissed off at Sarah trying to kill him, his reason for wanting to torture and kill Sarah was because of her messing with Rachel. While another character comments that Rachel wouldn't have authorized him to do this (and it was definitely without her permission), Rahcel herself doesn't express any disapproval (although I'm not positive she actually knew about it).

As for killing innocent bystanders, another character from the group that opposes Daniel's group also kills a Heroic Bystander, and he is a sympathetic character.

edited 31st Jul '14 3:18:29 PM by Hodor

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki

Light World Discord doesn't love Fluttercruel, in fact he doesn't seem to even know she EXISTS.

As for his monstrosities, he more or less psychologically tortured the entire country For the Evulz, doing things like turning Carrot Top into an ax weilding maniac who attacked anything with the color green on it, made Derpy give Dinky a Breaking Lecture and become an Abusive Parent, and emotionally broke Trixie to the point she became a catatonic wreck for weeks until Twilight saved her and may have created Loneliness.

And that's just SOME of what he did. It's also implied he caused natural disasters in some places (an air quake in Manehatten is mentioned) and his crowning moment of evil was emotioningly breaking Diamond Tiara so severely she went insane and turned into a nihilistic Nightmare.

He's also responsible for wiping out the Sea Ponies and the Flutterponies, but that was a side effect of his games rather than something he intended to do (though he doesn't care, he's more disappointed he lost his 'caged song birds' with the sea ponies, and turned Flutter Ponies into a living butterfly collection).

Jesus, who came up with that stuff?

@ Occsional Exister, Only The Dark World Discord cares about Fluttercruel, the reharmonised one does not. Reharmonised Discord tries to get Silver Spoon's father to behead her, turns Blueblood into ice and sends a pony made of fire after him, makes a pony named archer go around shooting other ponies with arrows, sends a giant snail and a giant floating pair of siccors after Snips and Snails to kill them, made Carrot Top go around attacking anything green with an axe, broke Trixie to the point of being catatonic, and did many, many other bad things. Listing all his atrocities would take over an hour. I think he counts.

jjj

Wow, the MLP Fanworks page really is a mess. Didn't we decide that darkfics don't count? Because if so, I think that at least the Cheerilees Garden entry should be cut. A lot of the other entries are spoilered to hell, especially the ones from The Greatest Gift, and Makarov's entry is almost as massive as Palatine's.

Maybe we should see if the darkness in the fanfic goes hand-in-hand with its plot. If the darkfic's only played for shock value, then it can be cut.

The thing about Cheerilee's Garden is that the author admitted it was a troll fic. Ergo, it's darkness played for shock. Therefore, Cheerilee from CG should be cut.

I already cut Rainbow Dash from Rainbow Factory, another troll fic, not to mention she also has no moral agency and is pretty much just a depraved lunatic with no moral agency.

Also what's the status on creepypasta examples? Are we not adding any of them because most of them are just darker interpretations of characters played for shock value?

Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.