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 876 Septimus Heap, Wed, 30th May '12 12:14:51 PM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
[up]Thanks. But one safety question: Is this thread the appropriate one or this one?

 877 Troacctid, Wed, 30th May '12 6:49:45 PM from California
Shouldn't need a dedicated thread. Just treat it like you would any other mis-indexed trope on the wiki—remove them from the index with an appropriate edit reason, and use the discussion if there's disagreement.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
 878 The Inferno, Fri, 1st Jun '12 10:58:17 PM from probably on Earth
|Y| = |X| Add 5
Three questions and a point of view from me.

1. Which way is to keep a page as YMMV? Up for YMMV down for Not YMMV (which is what I'm assuming) or what?

2. Do pages already on YMMV go through this thread or can something in YMMV go through this to get un-YMMV'd?

3. How do you know when something has been called?

All that together rolls into this one: I believe the Alas, Poor Villain page should go on either Audience Reaction or YMMV, as the way it is written and it's current examples clearly point that way. Either that, or it should be rewritten. My reasoning is as follows:

  • "As odd as it may seem, if you want the audience to feel sorry for a villain, a good death scene is probably the way to go."
    • This is the first sentence of the second paragraph and clearly points out that it's the audience that reacts. Could be rewritten if that's the only arguement. However!
  • "The movie also gives Precia an absolutely heartbreaking death scene. As she falls into an endless abyss, she remembers that Alicia wanted a sister, and realizes that she should have treated Fate as another daughter, and not as a Replacement Goldfish for Alicia, but by then, it's too late for her to make amends or even apologize."
    • Direct quote from the page, this example does not mention any in-universe mourning of Precia, if it's there or not, it distinctly limited to how the audience will feel.
  • "Any major end-of-arc villain in Fist of the North Star, once we realize that they were really Well Intentioned Extremists underneath all those brutal beatings and slavery. Tender Tears and Manly Tears will be shed."
    • Specifically pointing to the "we" in this example, referring to the audience. Nothing mentioned about how the characters feel.
  • "Mikoto from Flame of Recca is considered 'the female Mokuren': smug, bitchy, and monstrous. But then, they both get into a relationship, and while still smug and a monster, Mikoto somewhat mellows a bit. Then, Mokuren conveniently kills her to give him an advantage while she's begging him to stop fighting altogether. Sure, she's done lots of horrible things, but God, she looked so pitiful during her death that the one you wanted to die is not her, but Mokuren."
    • Another example the puts the reaction in the viewer's alley.
  • "Valkyria Chronicles' Selvaria blew herself up with most of Gallia's army, but the look on her face and her reasons for doing so will just make you feel sorry for her."
    • Yet another example of the audience supposed to be the one affected.
  • Not going to bother quoting any more directly, but the following examples seem to me to be audience oriented, and I would advise people to look at them:

There are probably a lot more, but this trope really does seem like it should be an Audience Reaction. Very few of the examples actually refer to in-universe mourning, many are X From X so it's impossible to tell, and as I have pointed out many rely on the audience being the one having the reaction.

I could see this being Trope Decay with a lot of bad examples, that happens... except 1. It was already YMMV before it was arbitrarily and unilaterally removed and then added to this crowner and 2. The description itself mentions it being a reaction in the audience.

Now, if you want to change the trope completely and prune all the examples that's fine, but you might as well make a new trope in that case rather than shang-haing this one. This was also brought up on Ask The Tropers.

edited 1st Jun '12 11:08:11 PM by TheInferno

"The fact that your food can be made into makeshift bombs alarms the Hell out of me, Scrye." - Charlatan
 879 Troacctid, Fri, 1st Jun '12 11:12:46 PM from California
No, cuz see, Alas, Poor Villain is about Sympathetic P.O.V.—portraying the villain sympathetically to make you feel sorry for them as they die. And Sympathetic P.O.V. isn't subjective. That's why tropes like Pet the Dog aren't YMMV, even though they're about audience sympathy for a character. So when Precia gets a sappy, emotional death despite being a villain, the audience's actual reaction doesn't really matter—it's clearly painting her in a more sympathetic light as she dies, whether or not it ends up being successful. Objective example of the trope.

Playing sad music, shedding a Single Tear, quietly whispering the name of a loved one—these are things that happen within the work, not in the audience's heads.

edited 1st Jun '12 11:18:05 PM by troacctid

Rhymes with "Protracted."
 880 The Inferno, Fri, 1st Jun '12 11:18:10 PM from probably on Earth
|Y| = |X| Add 5
Fine, but this isn't Sympathetic P.O.V.. If you argue that, you could argue Tear Jerkers aren't YMMV because of the fact that they are made to make the audience cry, but whether or not they do so is up to the audience.

Honestly, I think Alas, Poor Villain has more in common with Tear Jerker than it does with Sympathetic P.O.V., because both can be caused by Sympathetic P.O.V. (and actually Alas, Poor Villain is still on the Tear Jerker index!)

EDIT: Ok, what? Because you just described Tear Jerker (and why do I keep spelling that with an a!?) in it's entirety. Quite literally, a quote from that page: "However, they can also be as simple as the right imagery, tone, and music coming together - for the sole purpose of working those tear-ducts. "

Anyhow, it's really late and I need sleep, but I'll post in the morning.

edited 1st Jun '12 11:21:24 PM by TheInferno

"The fact that your food can be made into makeshift bombs alarms the Hell out of me, Scrye." - Charlatan
 881 Troacctid, Fri, 1st Jun '12 11:37:06 PM from California
Tear Jerker is explicitly any scene that makes you cry. One of its alt-titles is Crowning Moment of Sadness. As the page says, "one person's Tear Jerker may be another's Narm". It's not really pretending to be objective, and it's infested with Gushing anyway. (And besides, it has its own namespace, so it doesn't go on YMMV.)

There are objective techniques that can be used to try and make a Tear Jerker moment. The index on that page lists a handful of them. I don't think anyone is going to argue that Dying Alone is subjective (I hope). These techniques are designed to evoke emotion from the audience. The whole point of Alas, Poor Villain is creating an emotional moment for the villain, so it's not surprising that there's overlap. *shrug*

edited 1st Jun '12 11:38:52 PM by troacctid

Rhymes with "Protracted."
 882 Septimus Heap, Sat, 2nd Jun '12 1:03:36 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
[up]Did you clean up the pages and wicks?

 883 lu 127, Sat, 2nd Jun '12 1:44:54 AM from the Capital of Light Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
< Mod Hat on >

This crowner is here to add tropes to the YMMV index, not take them off it. If you want to make something objective, take it to TRS. Despite what you think, Alas, Poor Villain is not written as objective. Any further edit wars will result in edit suspensions.

< Mod Hat off >
何も恐れる事わ無い
 884 Troacctid, Sat, 2nd Jun '12 2:35:52 AM from California
[up][up] Work in progress. I made it most of the way down the first folder and took a break when my edit lock expired. It's a long page; I'll hack at it some more tomorrow.

Most of the examples are fine so far. I removed a small handful that were Square Peg Round Trope, maybe five or six, but the bulk of the work is natter, indentation, namespacing, and a little bit of grammar. You know how it is—every sub-bullet is indented wrong and needs to be shuttled around, every work is missing the namespace, all those messy things.

[up] "Pages that need (or don't need) Banners"; this is totally the place for it...

edited 2nd Jun '12 2:37:36 AM by troacctid

Rhymes with "Protracted."
 885 lu 127, Sat, 2nd Jun '12 2:38:51 AM from the Capital of Light Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
I talked about with two other mods. As it is right now, it needs to be rewritten through TRS. Take it there.
何も恐れる事わ無い
 886 Septimus Heap, Sat, 2nd Jun '12 2:48:26 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
I am getting the feeling that it's better to run all re-categorizations through TRS rather than just crowners. These category changes usually need some cleanup and repair actions.

 887 The Inferno, Sat, 2nd Jun '12 8:36:17 AM from probably on Earth
|Y| = |X| Add 5
I think you're confusing the axe for the fallen tree. Alas, Poor Villain is a Tear Jerker (why oh why do I keep spelling that with an a) specifically referring to a villains demise, that can be caused by a technique like Sympathetic P.O.V..

This should probably go to whatever new thread we get for discussing the page, though, in Trope Repair Shop.

[up]Agreed, and every time I've seen this brought up I've seen at least two people go "Wait, isn't that YMMV?" so it's not getting the attention it needs. There are people who have an opinion on the issue but don't realize the decision has been hidden in an unrelated thread, which has happened to me before. I don't think it's on purpose, by the way, it's just something that happens when we get these mega "Use this for requesting this action" threads. Still prefer this way to the millions of little threads, though.

Honestly, if we were to completely change it so it was an objective trope, I'd vote to cut it for being simply Sympathetic P.O.V. But More Specific specifically for a villain during their death. Plus, there are so many examples there that really are pointing to the audience reaction just on page, I don't even know about the wicks, of which it has nearly 1000 (to be exact 957). It has also brought over 300 people (326) to the wiki, where I believe the threshold for significance in that particular case is 10. Why should we completely change this trope? Tropes Are Not Bad, and that includes Audience Reactions.

edited 2nd Jun '12 6:17:26 PM by TheInferno

"The fact that your food can be made into makeshift bombs alarms the Hell out of me, Scrye." - Charlatan
 888 Troacctid, Sat, 2nd Jun '12 6:55:49 PM from California
I probably shouldn't talk about Sympathetic P.O.V. so much, since it's more specific than I keep thinking it is—it's apparently supposed to be restricted to, literally, a P.O.V. Character.

What I'm trying to say is that the concept of a sympathetic or unsympathetic portrayal of a character is something we can trope objectively. Kick the Dog and Pet the Dog are the biggest examples of how it doesn't depend on the audience's reaction. And, following from that, Alas, Poor Villain doesn't actually stray beyond those objective criteria, even in its current form—the line where it mentions the audience is in the context of what the author wants the audience to feel, not what the audience actually feels, and the examples are overwhelmingly not just "I felt bad about a villain dying".

edited 2nd Jun '12 6:58:40 PM by troacctid

Rhymes with "Protracted."
 889 The Inferno, Sat, 2nd Jun '12 7:18:34 PM from probably on Earth
|Y| = |X| Add 5
Ok, I can see that. I just don't like messing with a trope that as is has a ton of inbounds and wicks, and like I said, it does seem to be a more specific version of Sympathetic P.O.V. done that way. (Though as you said that does seem to refer to POV Character...)

Also, the name itself suggests an Audience Reaction... Alas, Poor Villain is what the audience is going to say when they react. If we were to change it around to make it objective, then we'd have to rename it. I don't believe there's enough reason to try and make it an objective trope, though, even if we can. Honestly, we could make an entirely new trope called Sympathy For The Villain, which would let us keep this trope as it is (a trope with a lot of inbounds and wicks) and give a trope that is not only objective but fits better (because Sympathy For The Villain can be used even when the villain in question doesn't actually die, but it also applies during their death).

The problem with that, of course, is the death examples for Sympathy For The Villain would overlap with Alas, Poor Villain, but don't Kick the Dog and Shoot the Dog both do that already with Moral Event Horizon?

We should probably take this to Trope Repair Shop. You want to make the thread?

edited 2nd Jun '12 7:26:50 PM by TheInferno

"The fact that your food can be made into makeshift bombs alarms the Hell out of me, Scrye." - Charlatan
 890 Troacctid, Sat, 2nd Jun '12 7:37:43 PM from California
We actually do have Cry for the Devil, which is the general trope for making the audience feel bad for the villain (it's Alas, Poor Villain's non-death-specific supertrope). Note that it also has a name suggesting an audience reaction, and also that it is objective. wink

Anyway, like I said, most of the current examples on the page are already objective—they're almost all talking about the things inside the work that make the villain's death pitiable. If the description is already describing an objective trope and the examples agree, it's not exactly a major repair effort to remove the banner. *shrug*

edited 2nd Jun '12 7:47:58 PM by troacctid

Rhymes with "Protracted."
 891 The Inferno, Sat, 2nd Jun '12 9:26:50 PM from probably on Earth
|Y| = |X| Add 5
Hmm, I see. Well, I can't really say I oppose it entirely given how you've explained it, unless anyone else can bring up an objection, I can't think of one right now.

Still, let's take this to TRS, get more than just us talking about it (and we'll stop hijacking this thread =P) so we can get a proper consensus on what to do. Especially considering the crowner is at dead zero 7 for 7 against.
"The fact that your food can be made into makeshift bombs alarms the Hell out of me, Scrye." - Charlatan
 892 Septimus Heap, Sun, 3rd Jun '12 2:46:05 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Made the thread

Added One-Scene Wonder to the crowner.

Added Anti-Shipping Goggles. I'm not really sure why this doesn't have YMMV banner when Shipping Goggles does.

Anti-Shipping Goggles and One-Scene Wonder have now been called.

edited 18th Jul '12 4:34:03 PM by MyTimingIsOff

I think Unintentional Period Piece is worth a YMMV banner. It's got "Unintentional" right in the title. I can see it a case for it being made objective, but that would require it being... uh, made objective first.

World's Toughest Milkman
[up]Hmm, "reflects the era it was made in" seems fairly objective. I'm not entirely sure what to make of that. "Not a historical or speculative fiction work" seems like as good a summary as any! Does that page serve any purpose?
"Existential Despair" is an oxymoron.
Seeking for Light
[up] From my reading of it, it's supposed to be for when a then-contemporary piece is really obvious about when it was made. Which would be YMMV.

But I have to agree, pretty much any contemporary piece is, sooner or later, going to show its age.

 899 Troacctid, Fri, 20th Jul '12 7:32:57 PM from California
Doesn't seem very YMMV to me. The case where "any contemporary piece eventually shows its age" is explicitly excluded.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Seeking for Light
[up] That's not what make in YMMV, in my opinion. It's the "really obvious" part that's YMMV. What's obvious to one person may not be obvious to another.

Page Action: YMMV Banner 3
30th Jul '13 1:04:20 AM
What would be the best way to fix the page?
At issue:
YMMV is for items that are reactions of the audience to works and tropes that need a significant judgment call to tell whether they exist objectively or not.

Should these items become members of YMMV?

Note: Audience Reactions need to be subjective, emotional responses and things that are likely to cause arguments and disagreements. Merely being outside a work or inside an audience don't make things YMMV
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