Three questions and a point of view from me.
1. Which way is to keep a page as YMMV? Up for YMMV down for Not YMMV (which is what I'm assuming) or what?
2. Do pages already
on YMMV go through this thread or can something in YMMV go through this to get un-YMMV'd?
3. How do you know when something has been called?
All that together rolls into this one: I believe the Alas, Poor Villain
page should go on either Audience Reaction
or YMMV, as the way it is written and it's current examples clearly point that way. Either that, or it should be rewritten. My reasoning is as follows:
- "As odd as it may seem, if you want the audience to feel sorry for a villain, a good death scene is probably the way to go."
- This is the first sentence of the second paragraph and clearly points out that it's the audience that reacts. Could be rewritten if that's the only arguement. However!
- "The movie also gives Precia an absolutely heartbreaking death scene. As she falls into an endless abyss, she remembers that Alicia wanted a sister, and realizes that she should have treated Fate as another daughter, and not as a Replacement Goldfish for Alicia, but by then, it's too late for her to make amends or even apologize."
- Direct quote from the page, this example does not mention any in-universe mourning of Precia, if it's there or not, it distinctly limited to how the audience will feel.
- "Any major end-of-arc villain in Fist of the North Star, once we realize that they were really Well Intentioned Extremists underneath all those brutal beatings and slavery. Tender Tears and Manly Tears will be shed."
- Specifically pointing to the "we" in this example, referring to the audience. Nothing mentioned about how the characters feel.
- "Mikoto from Flame of Recca is considered 'the female Mokuren': smug, bitchy, and monstrous. But then, they both get into a relationship, and while still smug and a monster, Mikoto somewhat mellows a bit. Then, Mokuren conveniently kills her to give him an advantage while she's begging him to stop fighting altogether. Sure, she's done lots of horrible things, but God, she looked so pitiful during her death that the one you wanted to die is not her, but Mokuren."
- Another example the puts the reaction in the viewer's alley.
- "Valkyria Chronicles' Selvaria blew herself up with most of Gallia's army, but the look on her face and her reasons for doing so will just make you feel sorry for her."
- Yet another example of the audience supposed to be the one affected.
- Not going to bother quoting any more directly, but the following examples seem to me to be audience oriented, and I would advise people to look at them:
There are probably a lot more, but this trope really does seem like it should be an Audience Reaction
. Very few of the examples actually refer to in-universe mourning, many are X From X
so it's impossible to tell, and as I have pointed out many
rely on the audience being the one having the reaction.
I could see this being Trope Decay
with a lot of bad examples, that happens... except 1. It was already
YMMV before it was arbitrarily and unilaterally removed and then added to this crowner and 2. The description itself
mentions it being a reaction in the audience.
Now, if you want to change the trope completely and prune all the examples that's fine, but you might as well make a new trope in that case rather than shang-haing this one. This was also brought up on Ask The Tropers
edited 1st Jun '12 11:08:11 PM by TheInferno